cyccommute 

There's also 105 (9 spd , $149 at nashbar), Tiagra ($199 at Nashbar) and Sora (less than the others). I've had Tiagra on a touring bike for 3 years without problems. I've been crashed and scrubbed off bits of the 105's and they are still going strong. I've had RSX (like Sora) and never had it fail.

I like the STI. Never really liked the barends. It's all about what you're used to.

cyccommute 

The derailer doesn't [care] what shifter it's tied to. An STI will still shift a 9 spd cassette no matter what derailer is used.

I agree that it's nice to have the bail out of a friction shifter mode but like you said shifters rarely fail. I've only had 2 on mountain bikes fail and those get gook thrown at them all the time.

ScituateJohn

The right STI shifters will only shift well with Shimano rear derailleurs. The left STI shifters will only shift well with Shimano road-bike front derailleurs. Not that this should be a problem, as every bike shop in America will have something that works with them.

cyclintom

Err - say what? The shifters and the rear derailleur have to be matched. 8-speed Ultegra rear derailleur won't shift 9-speed cassette with 9-speed levers.

Some 8-speed stuff won't shift other 8-speed stuff.

The whole damn thing is complicated and getting more complicated by the minute. SRAM is coming out with a shift group that uses half of the pull as Shimano or Campy. Campy won't shift Shimano or the reverse.

If you're on tour you PROBABLY won't break anything. But if you do and you don't have a friction option you're waiting for parts Bud.

funbun

Has anyone tried the bar end shifters by Rivendell:
https://www.rivbike.com/webalog/shift...urs/17089.html

They look a lot cooler than Shimano's bar ends, and Rivendell's bar ends are all metal.

halfspeed

You're both off the mark. Index derailleur compatability is determined by cable pull ratios, how far the derailleur moves for a given amount of cable pull. Shimano has used the same ratios for years, maybe as far back as six speed. So, an eight speed Shimano derailleur will shift fine on a nine speed drivetrain and vice versa. Derailleurs don't index, shifters do.

In friction mode, derailleurs are very nearly completely interchangeable as long as they have enough adjustment in the high and low stops and can wrap enough chain for the gears.

kesroberts

I've been using them for about a year and love them (for touring and commuting - not ready to give up STI on my road bike yet.) They replaced the Ultegra STI levers I had been using and I've never regretted it - simple is good.

cyccommute 

I should have been more clear about the brand of the derailer (forgot about Campy and Sram, although there are some derailer of those brands that will work with Shimano ). However, as long as the derailer is made for a Shimano indexed system, it doesn't care (note to self: reread what you right ) whether or not the derailer is a 7, 8, 9 or 10. The cassette and the shifter are the only important bits.

As for the an Ultegra 8 not shifting a 9 speed cassette, I've got one at home doing just that. I also have a 7 spd XT shifting from a 9 speed Tiagra and, until recently, I had a Shimano 600 rear derailer shifting a 9 speed 105 group with a 7 speed Shimano 600 crank. Most of the 'have to have 9 speed with 9 speed' stuff is just marketing. As long as your shifters and cassette are the same (and you are using the proper chain - an 8 speed chain will not work on a 9 speed system) everything else is gravy.

cyccommute 

That's what I wanted to say, I just said it...um...differently. I know that derailers don't index, that's why I said that the derailer doesn't care what it is tied to. Heck, if you had to, you could go into any Wally World, buy a cheap bike off the rack and use the derailer for it (douse the rest of the bike in gasoline and burn it so that no one else can use it )

I will admit that I forgot about the other component makers out there but you run across them so rarely that you can really not worry about compatibility issues. Do anyone really think that they are going to run across a bike shop in Clarkston, WA that carries only Campy? As heavenly as that might be, it probably ain't gonna happen!

Blackberry

I have a touring bike with old-style friction shifters, which work just fine. So I'm not about to change them. But I also have a road bike with Ultegra. In several thousand miles of riding, they have worked flawlessly. Unless I was touring in Borneo or Tibet, I think I'd be comfortable going with Ultegra. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

EmmCeeBee

You guys are zeroing in on the part of the discussion that doesn't merit an argument All the derailleurs listed above will probably work fine (or acceptably), for the <1% of us who have failures on the road. With a real bike shop nearby.

What I'm talking about is the rural hamlets which have, at the most, a Pop's Hardware with a dusty corner of Simplex derailluers and used bike parts from the 50's. I've been there. I kid you not.

I believe that only in the past ~15 years have derailleurs shared (or come close to) the same cable-pull ratio. Fom what I understand, my Suntour derailleur (1988) would give sloppy shifting if I matched it with indexed Shimano shifters. This isn't an issue -- unless you're somewhere where you're forced to make the choice.

Let me be clear: For 99%+ of tourers, through luck or route planning, this will never be an issue. For the few who venture far enough (one day I swear I'm doin' the Silk Road), it is.

-- Mark

cyccommute 

Ah, but for the 1% of people who go and do goofy things like travel far from society, whom I admire by the way, they had better be prepared to repair and rebuild and even refabricate their bikes using cheese, yak butter, rice noodles and the local jungle juice. The rest of us mere mortals can get away flying by the seat of our pants

Remember, if you get too far from the herd, there are lions out there. And lions like the taste of monkey!

EmmCeeBee

There's lions on the Silk Road?!!?!?!!

That pretty well describes me..... In all my tours, all the (minor) repairs I've had to make were done from what I carried, or what I could find at a local hardware store. I try to window-shop every grocery store and bike shop in every town, but the only things I've ever bought on tour from a bike shop is new tires. I know, I've been lucky.

That's part of the rewards of touring, knowing that before we leave camp in the morning I'll have our gear patched and working again. If the yak butter holds out.

-- Mark

cyccommute 

And tigers. And bears. Oh my!

wsexson

By all means try before buying because you may just like them!

Seriously, I have been very pleased with the barcons on my LHT in city traffic. I have been using STI for about 4 years and have been using barcons for about 2 months. I had no trouble adjusting to them. YMMV

wsexson

My Long Haul Trucker has Shimano 9 speed bar end shifters because they are cheap. There is the added advantage that I can use the Tektro levers that have the Campy style brake release button that makes it really easy to open my center pull cantilever brakes to take out or put in a wheel. I also actually prefer friction shifting for the front derailleur (at least on a triple), but I do like indexed shifting for the rear.

cyclintom

OK cyccommute - let me repeat this slowly - Shimano has DIFFERENT RATIOS now from the 8 speed and before era. Got that? When they went to 9-speed all of the groups were corrected to the same RATIOS.

Before that the ratios of Dura Ace and Ultegra and the rest of the lower lines had DIFFERENT RATIOS.

When they went to 9-speed they were forced to use the Dura Ace ratios of cable pull to idler arm movement for ALL of their line ni order to get sufficient cable pull.

Campy 10-speed won't shift Campy 9-speed without changing - YES - the RATIOS by putting in a different indexing wheel. 9-speed won't shift 8-speed!

Let me repeat this yet again - YOU CAN'T PUT ANYTHING BUT A COMPATIBLE DERAILLEUR WITH INDEXED SHIFTING OF ANY SORT.

Barends give you the option of using ANY rear derailleur in friction mode. And far out in the boondocks you don't know what you're going to find. How the hell do you know the only rear derailleur with sufficient throw you'll find in El Salvador isn't one of those titanium Huret touring friction shifting rear derailleurs?

As for shipping - I bought a frame for $300. To ship it SLOWEST CHEAPEST to Croatia was $780.

It is common in other countries for small packages to "never arrive" especially if you're anxious to get them unless you also sweeten the pot for the post master and all of his pals.

There are plenty of places in the USA where getting overnight shipping isn't possible. What's more in case you're unaware - priority US mail DOES NOT guarantee delivery time and in out of the way places you can pay for overnight and it might take 3 or 4 days and they don't have to refund you squat.

Now like I said before - this stuff doesn't break very often and most touring is done in civilized areas. But some people don't want to take any chances and barend shifters are that belt and suspenders option.

And while I'm at it - when I say that Ultegra breaks fairly often that implies that 105 and Sora do as well since they use the same basic plastic parts.

Saying "I used my Ultegra shifters for 3 years" also isn't much of a comment because I'm looking at bike shop repairs and they're showing like a couple of percent failure rates with a couple of years on the levers. Even some Dura Ace are breaking but I must say that it is rare.

Even Campy break but they have the advantage of being rebuildable.

That you PREFER STI is fine. There sure isn't anything wrong with it and I'd bet you ride your whole life and any failures would be on a local ride where you could ride into your local shop. But your PREFERENCE doesn't support the idea that barends aren't necessary. They're other people's preference.

And since I'm a cheap skate and I've been building a lot of bikes I've been installing them on a lot of bikes. And I'm finding that they're pretty nice to shift with. I can EASE from gear to gear. I really don't like that CLICKING sound from STI or Ergo.

I don't have ot even bother to look down at the bars since I can tell what gear I'm in by the feel of the lever. I can shift on the drops without a problem as can even people with small hands.

Standard brake levers are WAY more comfortable to me than STI or Ergo levers which are way too wide for comfort. While climbing out of the saddle my fingers overlap so that I don't have to worry about my hands slipping off which they've done on STI.

And I think that barends look cooler on touring bikes. They were invented for touring bikes in the first place and they look purpose built.

Golf XRay Tango

cyclintom, my Allez shifts flawlessly with a 9-speed Tiagra RD matched to 8-speed brifters. Just about every entry-level road bike right now uses a similar combination. I can't speak to the 7-speed and before era, but you can mix Shimano 8, 9 and 10 speed derailleurs and shifters.

halfspeed

All Shimano rear derailleurs designed for indexing use exactly the same throw ratios and are completely interchangeable EXCEPT for pre-nine speed Dura Ace. That means that a six speed index 600EX derailleur will work in a modern Ultegra ten speed drive train as long as it can wrap enough chain and has enough room on the limit adjustments. The throw ratios of the pre nine speed Dura Ace were scrapped, not moved down the product line. Here is Sheldon's take on this: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#indexing

That said, I would agree that barcons are slightly better than STI in every way except some degree of convenience for some riders. Whether to choose barcons or STI comes down to a personal decision of whether that convenience outweighs the other advantages of barcons.

cyclintom

I'm pretty sure that Sheldon wrote that incorrectly and if you read it you'll see that it seems to contradict itself.

The 9-speed shifters work with 8-speed Dura Ace with no changes but they won't work with 8-speed Ultegra rear derailleurs.

If you look at Sheldon's "Index Interchangeability Chart" it shows that.

Sheldon does on rare occasion make mistakes as I demonstrated one time with French components.

cyccommute 

My. My. Sorry I offended you by saying that I liked STI. Please forgive me. I have seen the error of my ways and will go correct them before the STI's I use explode and remove my hands

As others have told you (including me), Shimano index shifters will shift just about any Shimano derailer (and a few others too boot). I know this because I've had a 9 speed STI shifter shifting a 6 speed Shimano 600 derailer. No problems. The shift was as crisp as another bike with an Ultegra 9 speed derailer and 9 speed STI. I have another bike with a 7 speed XT shifted by 9 speed 105 STI and it shifts just fine too. I have even set up bikes with Shimano index shifters (6 speed) and an old Suntour derailer and it shifted okay. Not great but it would get you down the road. And, I'm fairly certain that if you really tried, you could probably limp along with that ancient Huret and STI. It might drive you crazy but it would probably be good enough.

Derailer systems aren't so precise that they can't be forced to work if they have to. If you tour in 3rd world countries (which is not something a whole lot of people do anyway) you have to learn to adapt. If you ride in 1st world countries you still have to learn to adapt, it's just that the adaptation might not have to be so long term.

Failure rates: 2% failure rate! That's a high failure rate? Why if only 2 out of 100 shifters failed every year, they'd all be gone in 50 years. Damned Shimano crap! I'd say that the failure rate for bar end shifters is probably about the same, there just isn't that large a sample of them out there to test.

By the way, I never said anywhere at any time that bar ends are unnecessary. I said that I don't like them. I didn't say that you shouldn't use them (or anyone else for that matter). My wife uses them so I am very familiar with them. I have them on a tandem, so I am very familiar with them. I prefer STI. You don't. But you don't have to be all pissy about it.

jens5

Campagnolo "Ergo" has the ability to dump or add multiple gears at a time unlike STI. "Ergo" does not get in the way of any Handlebar Bag mounting. Campy is rebuildable unlike STI. Frnt shifting in non-indexed and friction trimable, again unlike STI. IMO opinion, Barcons for all they're touted reliability have the longest cable run and as previously mentioned in this thread are less efficient because of it. Barcons get in the way of everything. I've actually shifted them accidentally with my knee's and shifted accidentally just by the fact of leaning my bike against something. They're placed on the twitchiest part of the handlebar. They get in the way or proclude the use of a handlebar bag. Unless you ride on the drops all the time, yes you do have to remove a hand to shift. If one wants the ultimate in simplicity, use indexed downtube shifters. They have all the issues covered. They're simple, they are efficient in that they have a shorter cable run. They can be index of friction, they don't get in the way of anything, they're cheap and the look good. Again, just my opinion folks. And yes, I've toured with all 3 systems.

Richard

NoReg

Richard, good points. An accidental shift once in a blue moon is not an issue for me touring. It might loose you a race, but I can't see the problem in touring, you just slap it back. Taking your hands off the bar isn't such a big deal, but where bar ends are good is that you have a very powerful stearing and wind position and a can ride the shifters. If you were shifting your way up a hill you can reach down to the barcon and hold the bar all the way as you work through gears. The really low gear on a heavily loaded bike is often a big wobbly jump, really several gears at once, and I like having good control. This is just the situation where you push over right to let all the traffic by, and end up on the rough or a soft shoulder with the bike wobbling like heck. Occasionally.

I like your points about campy. If you look at the Sakkit approach where he mounts, on his personal bike, downtube shifters as a back-up for barcons, one could do the same with the brifters. As long as they are able to actually shift the drivetrain one wants to run, and I get out of my depth on that stuff. But if one could run the brifter; if It was all the practical points you mention; it was a good brake lever for whatever brakes one was running; and one could swap to downtube in the middle of nowhere, it could be cool.

I just bought the neo-retros, since someone mentioned them, and I am not that impressed. I am happy with the purchase - in a thread where we are taking about shifters that cost 2 or more times more than neos, I don't think they are overpriced for what you get. But basically what you get are milled brakes that should be pretty familiar in performance to anyone who has been around cantis for a while. A lot rides on brakes so better materials and so forth seem reasonable to me. But if you don't like cantis now, you won't be converted by Pauls.

USAZorro

Technique After reading about a half dozen threads on the subject, and conducting civil debates with some who just hate bar-ends, that's the only conclusion that I can come to. What else could it be? Bar ends are a gift from on high!

How to use bar-end shifters properly.

1. Grasp the trailing edge of your bars in the drops, so that your thumb, and all fingers except the pinky, and (depending on the size of your hand) ring finger are on the bars. Grasp the shift lever using your pinky, and and the part of the hand that it naturally closes on.

2. While pedaling, push down gently until you hear the chain shift (to get into a harder gear), or pull up gently until you hear the chain shift (to get in an easier gear). Note that shifting the front derailleur may, or may not have the opposite result, depending on the style of front derailleur that you have.

3. Post on the next BF thread you see on the topic of bar-end vs other shifters, secure in the knowledge that people who say they hate them are ignoramuses (or is it ignorami).

Note: If you find it unnatural to put your hand down as far as the drops, you should either:

1. Raise your stem a little
2. Consider riding with a different type of handlebar
3. Consider buying one of those little scooters

Cheers,

Z

wintermute

My next bike will have barcons because every bike that I've owned that had STI, rapidfire, etc. always had front derrailleur shifting problems after every few rides. It got to the point where I would have to baby it, esp. between the large and middle chainrings. Very annoying. Never had problems with Shimano rear derrailleurs though. It will be nice to have friction shifting up front and indexing in the rear. I think the only time I will really miss brifters is when climbing up nasty hills out of the saddle while holding onto the hoods. But then again, when you get to that point, you generally don't have too many gears left...