Top End Touring Bikes
05-23-06, 02:32 AM
#3
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Mariposa is certainly a far better custom frame outfit. But touring wise, they don't strike me as being as dialed in.
Sakkit is a weird entity. If you order the brochure, and it is certainly worth it, the main concern appears to be panniers, then racks, and finally bikes. Bikes are the only part he doesn't/hasn't make/made himself, and there is a somewhat more flip tone about the bikes. On the other hand I think his ideas on the lay-out and fit-out of touring bikes make more sense than anything else I have read.
It is a bit difficult to know what one is really talking about with Beckman's stuff. He seems to have it mostly aimed towards Expedition touring, which I gather is long distance touring in rough road conditions. There are various extremes he claims to serve also, like ultralight or mountain, where the durability and complexity he normally aspires to seems unnecessary. Do you need 20 pounds of panniers and racks to carry 10 pounds of gear. Is it really necessary to have such refined gear once so many ounces have been peeled back. Also he designs MTB touring systems and while they may be wonderful, there is so much out there that occupies a similar space I don't think one needs to get so fancy about it. In the main, I think the whole touring range is being handled pretty well with the possible exception of the transcontinental road through to expedition segment, and the latter probably would be where RBD stuff would mostly shine. A pretty small market.
Beckman offers more touring models more pannier models, and more racks than the rest of the industry combined, and that is before you start considering the options list, or the stuff that is in development.
The cost it truly frightening, it seems unlimited. I don't think one would have any idea going into it what the project was going to cost, there are so many variables.
My interest tends to run to bikes, then racks, and only slightly to panniers, I guess it depends on your perspective, but it does make sense that these components be integrated so that they fit you and your frame, and your gear. Of course that leads to truly exotic degrees of custom fabrication.
Beckman claims to be working at a fairly high level in the craft, and why not, he has been at it long enough, and claims prodigious miles in the saddle. But like many advanced craftsmen, the work that appeals to him closes out the very people who can most use it, and he ends up just making stuff for the rich. That's no problem in itself, for a jeweler, but I can't imagine this ultimate gear is getting into many of the right hands. I don't care if the brazed joints on his racks are better this year than a few years ago, I would prefer it if they were cheaper, and actually available in the market place. Beckman could teach Surly quite a bit about designing an LHT, but it won't happen. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and it's nice to know that "perfect" gear is being made, even if one never sees it.
Sakkit is a weird entity. If you order the brochure, and it is certainly worth it, the main concern appears to be panniers, then racks, and finally bikes. Bikes are the only part he doesn't/hasn't make/made himself, and there is a somewhat more flip tone about the bikes. On the other hand I think his ideas on the lay-out and fit-out of touring bikes make more sense than anything else I have read.
It is a bit difficult to know what one is really talking about with Beckman's stuff. He seems to have it mostly aimed towards Expedition touring, which I gather is long distance touring in rough road conditions. There are various extremes he claims to serve also, like ultralight or mountain, where the durability and complexity he normally aspires to seems unnecessary. Do you need 20 pounds of panniers and racks to carry 10 pounds of gear. Is it really necessary to have such refined gear once so many ounces have been peeled back. Also he designs MTB touring systems and while they may be wonderful, there is so much out there that occupies a similar space I don't think one needs to get so fancy about it. In the main, I think the whole touring range is being handled pretty well with the possible exception of the transcontinental road through to expedition segment, and the latter probably would be where RBD stuff would mostly shine. A pretty small market.
Beckman offers more touring models more pannier models, and more racks than the rest of the industry combined, and that is before you start considering the options list, or the stuff that is in development.
The cost it truly frightening, it seems unlimited. I don't think one would have any idea going into it what the project was going to cost, there are so many variables.
My interest tends to run to bikes, then racks, and only slightly to panniers, I guess it depends on your perspective, but it does make sense that these components be integrated so that they fit you and your frame, and your gear. Of course that leads to truly exotic degrees of custom fabrication.
Beckman claims to be working at a fairly high level in the craft, and why not, he has been at it long enough, and claims prodigious miles in the saddle. But like many advanced craftsmen, the work that appeals to him closes out the very people who can most use it, and he ends up just making stuff for the rich. That's no problem in itself, for a jeweler, but I can't imagine this ultimate gear is getting into many of the right hands. I don't care if the brazed joints on his racks are better this year than a few years ago, I would prefer it if they were cheaper, and actually available in the market place. Beckman could teach Surly quite a bit about designing an LHT, but it won't happen. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and it's nice to know that "perfect" gear is being made, even if one never sees it.
05-23-06, 10:21 AM
#4
40 yrs bike touring
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Santa Barbara,CA.
Posts: 1,021
Bikes: Bruce Gordon Ti Rock N Road [1989], Fat Chance Mountain Tandem [1988], Velo Orange Neutrino (2020)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Over the last 35 years of touring on and offroad I have tried various panniers and racks.The list includes Touring Cyclist, Kirtland, KangarooBaggs, Specialised, Blackburn, Pletscher, Overland and others now forgotten. All disappointed me in various ways from materials and durability to design and execution.
When I ordered my Bruce Gordon RNR in 1989 I transferred my three year old BG racks and the panniers designed in conjunction with the racks-The Needle Works/Robert Beckman Designs Panniers to the new bike. I like supporting small cottage businesses because you talk directly with the craftsman. Yes the cost is higher but so is the quality! Since then I have stopped looking for any other panniers or bikes. They have fulfilled all of my quirky requirements and then some I did not realize until I used the panniers for a long time.
The racks and panniers are an extension of the bike. They do not move from side to side no matter the terrain or load to throw me off line. They compartmentalize items when needed but open up for larger items as needed. Small but important and useful touches abound. They have carried me on the Divide Ride and to the grocery store; through the Andes Mountains of South America offroad without a whimper except my gasps at 5000 meters/16500feet. They work equally as well on our Fat Chance Mtn Tandem for offroad and road touring.
Through rain, washboard and single track and sun and new pavement this jewelry set has been one of those quality items that my grandfather always recommended. He said to buy good quality and you will not have the replacement expense regularly.
After twenty years the original expense is nothing compared to the worry free and trouble free experience. You DO get what you pay for sometimes. Unfortunately many people know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Try transferring your Starbucks yearly costs to buying good equipment like Beckman Panniers and racks and Bruce Gordon bikes and racks. You will actually have something of value to use instead of colored and flavored water filling your bladder.
When I ordered my Bruce Gordon RNR in 1989 I transferred my three year old BG racks and the panniers designed in conjunction with the racks-The Needle Works/Robert Beckman Designs Panniers to the new bike. I like supporting small cottage businesses because you talk directly with the craftsman. Yes the cost is higher but so is the quality! Since then I have stopped looking for any other panniers or bikes. They have fulfilled all of my quirky requirements and then some I did not realize until I used the panniers for a long time.
The racks and panniers are an extension of the bike. They do not move from side to side no matter the terrain or load to throw me off line. They compartmentalize items when needed but open up for larger items as needed. Small but important and useful touches abound. They have carried me on the Divide Ride and to the grocery store; through the Andes Mountains of South America offroad without a whimper except my gasps at 5000 meters/16500feet. They work equally as well on our Fat Chance Mtn Tandem for offroad and road touring.
Through rain, washboard and single track and sun and new pavement this jewelry set has been one of those quality items that my grandfather always recommended. He said to buy good quality and you will not have the replacement expense regularly.
After twenty years the original expense is nothing compared to the worry free and trouble free experience. You DO get what you pay for sometimes. Unfortunately many people know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Try transferring your Starbucks yearly costs to buying good equipment like Beckman Panniers and racks and Bruce Gordon bikes and racks. You will actually have something of value to use instead of colored and flavored water filling your bladder.
05-23-06, 12:18 PM
#5
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Just to be clear on cost, I don't think his prices are generally unreasonable. I think the cost stuff falls into several categories:
- Imponderability of the costs. There isn't anything all that extraodinary about 4600 dollar bikes these days, the LBS has many stock mountain bikes in that range. Completion dates and future pricing create some uncertainty as to the actual pricing. But for me it is more the options list that is a little daunting. One must order the bike with a 1-2 hour consultation, and getting these features right and getting off the phone without having bid the price up to 7000 sounds like it might be a challenge. The prices on the website are much lower than current costs. For instance the Sakkit frame is listed at 1250 online, while in the '05 list still in use earlier this year (what does it mater since you are buying from a future price list not yet created that depends on your date of delivery), it runs 2100-2600 or 3400 for signature custom, and that is only as part of a package with the racks and paniers. Racks we are warned are set to go way up in pricing and currently run 200-400, minor options, of which you may want several, are an extra 70 bucks (pair of braces) 90 bucks for the mounts for headlights. etc... There are well in excess of 40 panier models listed in prices from 200 to 650 a pair (half a bike's worth). There are about 20 standard options listed, running from $10-350. That doesn't include the light weight panier line.
Really, there aren't any models, and there aren't any prices, it is a bespoke line, and if you have to ask what it costs...
- Some of the products, like racks, cost a lot of money, and there isn't any way around it. I'm making my own racks right now, and if you compare the front rack to the the main triangle of a bike, also straight tubing, there is about 1/3rd the tubing in the main triangle, though the price/foot is about twice the price of the 4130 in the rack. There are a lot of joints in a rack, and the rack needs to be custom fit to the gear, use, and bike. There are also 7+ bends in the rack. Getting a custom rack for what a Surly frame costs is a solid value. But given the process is expensive, prising around with the art level quality of the fillet brazed finish is not doing much for me. The guys who plaster your walls don't get lavish reputations for getting the job done smoothly, they would be embarassed if they weren't doing competant work. Stop taking bows for not being a hack.
- Reading the info package is a weid experience. Reading one's way through the '04 and '06 editions one starts in '04 with the expedition bikes and gear, reading endless pages on zipper placements etc..., by '06 we are back to the roots of his cycling, Colin Fletcher, Ray Jardine, etc... We are back at the ultralite end of the spectrum. Beckman sees a kinship with some of the Jardine ideas he has heard about. Jardine is famous for getting his gear so light the packs are one step above plastic grocery bags, and he supplies home builder instructions in his books.
While the quality of work being done or assembled in the RBD stuff is great, I think there are uses that are undermining. I have been running Seratus and Blackburn racks for 20 years without a problem because I pack light and don't thrash the stuff. The packs don't have zippers so the archness of zipper placement or scantling is irrelevant. I started at the end of the first ultralite fad back in the 70s. It seems as though every inovation from goretex, to cordura, to dome tents has increased the weight and (sometimes) unreliability of the gear.
Simple gear does not require a genius to assemble correctly. Ultralite gear doesn't tend to beat itself to death as easily. Do you really need 700 dollar paniers to go ultralite? For instance there are 24 compression straps on the paniers shown on the cover of his catalog. If your paniers are correctly sized and packed you can get by with far less in the way of compression straps, and still not experience wiggle. If you don't use zippers, you don't need compression straps to stop them from blowing out. And you don't need rain covers (still nice) because you can seal the materials adequately.
- There is the point that he could offer some of this stuff at a practical pricing level. But I understand that isn't the work he wants to do. The Surly frames and racks could be modified slightly to meet the need, and maybe someone like Kogswell will get around to making an even better product as time passes by.
Pricing is a design issue like everything else. I don't have a problem with high priced gear, per se. I do think a lot of people engaged in any sport aren't actually buying with a 20 year time horizon (and the last 20 years would not have seen a 600 dollar investment paying for itself, amortized over the subsequent years.) More typically people are in sports for episodes of 5 years or less. Personally I haven't regreted the quality gear I bought and I still have most of the better stuff I bought 20 years or more ago.
I hear you on the Starbucks budget. I have three kids, it is long gone.
- Imponderability of the costs. There isn't anything all that extraodinary about 4600 dollar bikes these days, the LBS has many stock mountain bikes in that range. Completion dates and future pricing create some uncertainty as to the actual pricing. But for me it is more the options list that is a little daunting. One must order the bike with a 1-2 hour consultation, and getting these features right and getting off the phone without having bid the price up to 7000 sounds like it might be a challenge. The prices on the website are much lower than current costs. For instance the Sakkit frame is listed at 1250 online, while in the '05 list still in use earlier this year (what does it mater since you are buying from a future price list not yet created that depends on your date of delivery), it runs 2100-2600 or 3400 for signature custom, and that is only as part of a package with the racks and paniers. Racks we are warned are set to go way up in pricing and currently run 200-400, minor options, of which you may want several, are an extra 70 bucks (pair of braces) 90 bucks for the mounts for headlights. etc... There are well in excess of 40 panier models listed in prices from 200 to 650 a pair (half a bike's worth). There are about 20 standard options listed, running from $10-350. That doesn't include the light weight panier line.
Really, there aren't any models, and there aren't any prices, it is a bespoke line, and if you have to ask what it costs...
- Some of the products, like racks, cost a lot of money, and there isn't any way around it. I'm making my own racks right now, and if you compare the front rack to the the main triangle of a bike, also straight tubing, there is about 1/3rd the tubing in the main triangle, though the price/foot is about twice the price of the 4130 in the rack. There are a lot of joints in a rack, and the rack needs to be custom fit to the gear, use, and bike. There are also 7+ bends in the rack. Getting a custom rack for what a Surly frame costs is a solid value. But given the process is expensive, prising around with the art level quality of the fillet brazed finish is not doing much for me. The guys who plaster your walls don't get lavish reputations for getting the job done smoothly, they would be embarassed if they weren't doing competant work. Stop taking bows for not being a hack.
- Reading the info package is a weid experience. Reading one's way through the '04 and '06 editions one starts in '04 with the expedition bikes and gear, reading endless pages on zipper placements etc..., by '06 we are back to the roots of his cycling, Colin Fletcher, Ray Jardine, etc... We are back at the ultralite end of the spectrum. Beckman sees a kinship with some of the Jardine ideas he has heard about. Jardine is famous for getting his gear so light the packs are one step above plastic grocery bags, and he supplies home builder instructions in his books.
While the quality of work being done or assembled in the RBD stuff is great, I think there are uses that are undermining. I have been running Seratus and Blackburn racks for 20 years without a problem because I pack light and don't thrash the stuff. The packs don't have zippers so the archness of zipper placement or scantling is irrelevant. I started at the end of the first ultralite fad back in the 70s. It seems as though every inovation from goretex, to cordura, to dome tents has increased the weight and (sometimes) unreliability of the gear.
Simple gear does not require a genius to assemble correctly. Ultralite gear doesn't tend to beat itself to death as easily. Do you really need 700 dollar paniers to go ultralite? For instance there are 24 compression straps on the paniers shown on the cover of his catalog. If your paniers are correctly sized and packed you can get by with far less in the way of compression straps, and still not experience wiggle. If you don't use zippers, you don't need compression straps to stop them from blowing out. And you don't need rain covers (still nice) because you can seal the materials adequately.
- There is the point that he could offer some of this stuff at a practical pricing level. But I understand that isn't the work he wants to do. The Surly frames and racks could be modified slightly to meet the need, and maybe someone like Kogswell will get around to making an even better product as time passes by.
Pricing is a design issue like everything else. I don't have a problem with high priced gear, per se. I do think a lot of people engaged in any sport aren't actually buying with a 20 year time horizon (and the last 20 years would not have seen a 600 dollar investment paying for itself, amortized over the subsequent years.) More typically people are in sports for episodes of 5 years or less. Personally I haven't regreted the quality gear I bought and I still have most of the better stuff I bought 20 years or more ago.
I hear you on the Starbucks budget. I have three kids, it is long gone.
Last edited by NoReg; 05-23-06 at 12:32 PM.
