KeatonR

So I sold my beloved Bridgestone MB-0 and am now looking to put together a 700c replacement. This bike will be largely used as a town bike, grocery getter, and commuter (and I realize that that puts me way out of many of your leagues, but I figure you all know this bike better than the folks in the commuter forum). I'm thinking I'll build it up with a flat handlebar and thumbshifter, with a rear rack and fenders.

Questions.
1. Where do I get one?

2. Do the stickers come off easily? I want it to be low profile for theft deterrence.

3. If I ride a 56cm road bike, and a 55cm cyclocross bike, will the 56cm Surly fit me?

4. I'm also considering the Nashbar touring frame for this purpose, but I generally prefer steel. Your thoughts? The Nashbar frameset would save me a couple hundred bucks.

roadfix

........and a whole lot easier to acquire....


As far as decals go on Surlys in general....IMO, they look better without decals. I don't think it'll contribute to theft deterence one bit. The decals are not clear coated so they scrape off easily. The aluminum head badge can be easily peeled off as well with a little heat...

KeatonR

Well, my thought is that I'd like to make it a little less obvious that it's a Surly, since people are pretty into them around here. Although it being Boulder, everyone'll probably know what it is anyway. Maybe a big ole kickstand will deter some potential theives?

metal_cowboy

You should give Gene at spicercycles.com a call. They have great pricing on the LHT and Gene is a super guy to work with. I have had my LHT for a year now, and can testify to what a good bike they are.

wxlidar

I'll second the suggestion for Gene at Spicer Cycles. I bought my LHT from him a few weeks ago and the process was outstanding. He even installed the headset and BB for me. Oh, and framesaved the frame.

A lot of the sizes are out of stock because of demand. Search the catalog on Spicer Cycle's website to see what's available. Or you could call them.

Not sure about sizing.

I'm using mine as a commuters and road bike right now. Fantastic! I just got my trailer so it will soon be my grocery getter. I go on a supported tour later this month so then it will be my tourer. Great all around bike.

Many opinions on both sides as far as aluminum vs. steel. But I like the ride of a steel bike. I'd go with the LHT (but I'm biased )

-Dave

billydscout

You could also look into breezer bikes. They are cheap and perfect for an around town/commuting bike.

tacomee

First off, I'm sitting here looking at a crazy bike I built out of new and used parts and a frame I traded a friend for. I've had a good time building it, I generally like the bike, but......

.....I would have been better off moneywise going out and buying a new bike. and I'm a wrench who faced my own headset and BB and did all the work myself.

Honestly-- Surly bikes aren't anything to write home about. They are heavy welded cro-moly steel. It's not like they are lugged or double butted Renyolds tubes or anything fancy. Surly frames are basic steel general use hunks of steel. It is quite possible to shop around at Goodwill and buy some old MTB or road bike frame that is higher quality.

I'm not saying building up a Surly isn't a good idea-- you'll get a good bike that will last. But try riding some new bikes-- Trek, REI and Jamis all make steel framed bikes you can buy for less than $1000-- they ride really nice!

There's a cult around custom built bikes that you do not have to join to get a nice bike. However, as mentioned above, I've had several custom frame up built bikes-- I quess I'm a member of that custom cult.

NoReg

Sure there isn't anything special about the Surly material wise. There is very little all that special about the materials of most high end steel bikes either. The main issue is getting some weight and ride features in there that come from shaving all the metal you possibly can from the tubes and no more. The beauty about touring bikes is that little metal needs to be shaved or you end up with durability or shimmy problems. And usually touring you can't tell the difference in the weight anyway. For instance, the average touring top tube is probably something like 28 mm 1/.7/1 or .8/.6/.8. The butting on a tube like that is probably saving you about 2-3 ounces in a 24 inch top tube over straight wall tubing. Big deal. These kinds of bike don't respond that significantly to materials issues. There is nonetheless a lot that can be right or wrong about a touring frame. Surly is half way there for a serious touring bike, and probably about as far as the market will accept. enough people like their LHTs that I think it must be a successful design.

However there is nothing any more special about REI or TREK either, so it could come down to price, one could shop out a deal in any of these brands.

I would probably pass on the Nashbar. It really appeals to me, but the only Nashbar bike I ever rode, was a dog, unfair but true, it was an MTB; Aluminum despite being so hot one time (canondale rode that material from being a tent manufacturer to what they are today) is nowhere, it would be hard to sell, if it came to that; seems like they cheapened the fork, though I may have dreamt it had a crown at one time?; I have only heard one positive report of the Nashbar, and a few lukewarm. It may be great, but unlike the surly, or steel, bike cults if it is good, nobody feels like saying so.

KeatonR

Hmm. Interesting points. Considering what I'm hoping to use the bike for, I certainly don't necesarily need a cult bike. My problem has been finding a steel cross frame that takes a rear rack. I've been looking at Poprad frames (I already own one), but my question is, how do you attach the rack at the top? They include the eyelets at the bottom, but I don't get how to attach it up near the seatpost?

I'm thinking LHT because on paper has everything I need. But I'm certainly open to spending less on a cross fram that would serve my purposes.

NoReg

There are all kinds of racks out there including ones that attach to seat posts alone. Even if you get a bike with top mounts some of them are terrible to attach to, so you may well have to engineer something. Also you can add brazed fitting to any frame it will ruin the paint, but considering your theft concerns that could be a plus. Just today I was quoted 60 bucks to strip and powdercoat a bike frame. So you could get braze ons and a new paint job for a lot less than a Surly.

ncscott

P clips might do the job at holding your rack on the seat stays. You can even get metric allen bolts and locknuts at lowes to attach the P clips to the rack. Concidering the flimsy mounting arms on most racks, I would have to assume that all the weight is carried at the drop out and a P clip would not take away any usefullness of a rack.
Scott

tacomee

Try taking your Porad to a good bike shop that knows something about riding a loaded bike--- I'm betting it's quite possible to hook up a rear rack, get a new fork/front rack and 4 small size panniers/trunk/handlebar bag and hit the road!

There is a little technical nowhow to setting up a 'cross bike to tour-- PM with any questions. It can be done.

wxlidar

I will agree there is a 'cult' following with Surly bikes. Yes, it is plain Cro-Mo steel and nothing fancy in the construction. But it's the geometry that is key. The LHT has a touring geometry: low BB, long chainstays, relaxed headtube. It is based on one of the Rivendell touring bikes, I think the Atlantis. I imagine someone may feel a difference between a beautiful lugged Rivendell and a Surly LHT, but $1000 difference? I'm not so sure.

A MTB or cyclocross won't have the heel clearance if you want to run panniers. The LHT long wheelbase adds to the comfortable ride. Also, the long headtube allows for a higher stem position.

Of course a new production bike will be cheaper, but it might not have components that you want. My LHT has all the components that I wanted. Had I bought a new bike and swapped out the parts, I would have spent more than I did.

Take the decals of the Surly and it's now a frame. But a frame that has lots of great potential.

-Dave

saanichbc

This would be a great topic on our SurlyLHT owners group forum. This is a very interesting thread.

tacomee

I'm not saying Surly isn't a good frame--- but the Novara Radonee and Trek 520 frames are better quality steel-- and tried and true touring frames.


I've got nothing against Quality Bike Parts-- they are a fine outfit with good products (I like all the Winwood and Dimension stuff) Great service as well. There is a good reason they sell to almost every bike shop in the USA.


But pricewise, I'd really think about buying a store built touring bike before building up a Surly frame. Yeah, I know that a Trek 520 doesn't come set up the way a particular rider wants it, but it's easy enough to buy new parts, switch them over and even sell the used parts on EBAY.

In the spirit of full disclosure-- I'm typing this next to my last frame up built bike, so I have some understanding of both the joys and the BS of going custom.

robmcl

I have to second this. I did a frame build up of a commuter/light touring bike this spring. I mostly did it for the experience and to get a better grasp/confidence of bike cycle mechanics so that I could do my own maintenance. Although I have not sat down to do a final add up, but between parts and tools I would have a tough time defending this project financially. I think I would have been just as well off or even better off financially to go to REI and get one of their bikes.

KeatonR

Well, I saw a complete LHT on ebay this morning and decided to go for it. I'll have some changes to make, but I figure I'll actually save some money this way versus shopping around for all the parts. The one I'm getting comes with fenders and a rear rack, and it's the discontinued green, which I actually prefer to the two new colors.

I'm attaching a pic from the auction.

So, I'll be changing the handlebars to a flat bar with bar ends, which means I'll be able to sell the STI shifters to help fund the purchase. Will probably downgrade the saddle and the crankset (which is currently dura ace). Should still be a fun project. I'll post pics when I'm done.

Riderfan_lee

I have a rear rack and 56L MEC panniers on my mountain bike and don't have problems with heel clearance. I think it is a problem in some mountain bikes and cyclocross bike, but not all. And there are ways around it without buying a whole new bike. There are rack extensions and longer racks that are available to alleviate some of those problems.

wxlidar

Yes, I spent more on my ride (LHT) than was spent on my wife's 520. The 520 is a really nice ride. Probably geared too high for touring but she doesn't have a problem with it as a commuter.

Most of the parts on my LHT are new, but some I purchased on Ebay or at a discount from Performance or Nashbar (or the like). If you are persistent, you can get good components at a good price so I don't think you will spend that much more on a custom build compared to the 520. Now, the REI bike is often deeply discounted so you can really get a deal. But the geometry and components are what pushed my wife to the 520 over the REI bike.

-Dave

Nigeyy

I also second this as someone who bought a Dawes Sardar frame and fork for about $210 and built it up. Even though that was ridiculously cheap for the quality of frame it is (certainly equivalent to an LHT in my opinion) it really is hard to buy all the parts you need to hang on a bike frame cheaply. I ended up spending about $500 to end up with a bike that is fully fendered, racked, Avid road disc equipped (an indulgence admittedly!), STI shifting, etc. Now mind you, I already had a vast majority of parts such as crankset, bb, brifters, rear derailleur, one front wheel, handlebars and a couple of other items from my old bike. Without having existing parts, there is no doubt the $1000 barrier would have been ridiculously easy to pass. It is amazing how much the money adds up when you have to buy things even the "little" things like bar tape, cables, tyres, etc. Would I have done the same had I had $1000 in hand? Well, actually yes, but only for the following reasons:

i. a Dawes Sardar is a very rare bike in the States -add to the fact they offer disc mounts and I wanted a disc equipped touring bike (as I said, a self indulgence!). It's also a 26" wheelset which was another appeal for me.
ii. there is satisfaction to be gained by building a bike up yourself.
iii. in my current financial situation, the chances of having $1000+ to spend on a bike are.... remote. Utilizing current parts and buying the odd $20-$30 part every month until I'd finished the build was a lot more doable.

Got to be honest though, having done it, had I not been able to get a Dawes Sardar, and assuming I had cash in hand, I would have most definitely looked at a Trek 520 (just my opinion, but to me it is a nicer frame than the LHT *ducks from the LHT fan club*). It just makes a lot more sense.

And yes, I also agree that having seen my friend's LHT, they are nothing special -though they are a very good frame and extremely well designed. Certainly if you want to buy a touring specific bicycle, the cheapest way to start currently (note, not the cheapest way to finish!) is to buy an LHT frame. Coupled with the fact many people have a spare parts drawer and touring people seem to have a better handle on mechanics (huge generalization here!), my guess is it is a seemingly attractive proposition compared to that upfront $1100 for the Trek 520.

jens5

Surly LHT's are though, double butted Cro-MO with great Geometry.

Richard

Old_Fart

I built my Cross Check up from the components off of my '03 Trek 520. I was actually quite impressed at the differences in quality between the two frames.

The Cross frame feels more lively than the 520. While the two frames (with fork and headset) are within a pound (the limit of accuracy on my bathroom scale) of each other, my average commute speed is up almost 2mph over the 17 mile route on the Surly.

When I had both frames totally stripped bare I picked up each frame with one finger by the top tube and "rang" the frames with a screwdriver handle. The Trek frame just kind of went "thud" while the Surly frame rang quite nicely. And no, there was no rust in the 520 frame, it was always stored inside and rarely saw rain. Since I always seem to have multiple bikes, the 520 had only about 3000 miles on it.

The Trek was heavily and sloppily painted while the Surly frame has a nicely applied powder coating. The Trek frame had so much paint on it that the original seat post clamp was only grabbing by one thread and stripped out that thread trying to tighten it down the first time. I had to sand down the paint around the top of the seat tube to get the new clamp to fit. Big lumps of paint caused the rear derailleur not to mount cleanly. When I put on fenders and racks chunks of paint chipped off aound the braze-ons.

The brake lugs on the 520's seat stays weren't even. One was higher than the other.

The welds under the 520's fork where the steerer tube attaches looked like big green bird droppings.

The seat tube on the 520 was not butted, instead there was a short tube pressed in the top for the needed support for the clamp and tube welds.

The only complaint I have at all about the Cross Check is the location of the rear brake cable stops. It would be better for routing V-brake cables if the cable ran along the top tube at the 10:00 position instead of the 2:00 position.

While both frames a plenty sturdy, the clear winner for fit and finish is the cheap taiwanese made Surly.

halfspeed

Really? I didn't think Trek disclosed any details about the steel used in the 520 any more. The web site says "Trek butted cro-moly". Surly's claim is pretty much the same... except it's double butted.

I really don't see anything to recommend the Trek over the Surly beyond instant gratification.

tacomee

First off, looking at the Randonee, Trek 520, Surly and Jamis touring frames.... I'd bet money that the same small group of Asian bike frame factories build all of them. So the only difference would be the paint, maybe the quality of tubing. But basicly, all these frames are really close. Surly does have a quality finish, however.

Both Surly and Trek have made better quality steel frames in the past. Jamis uses better steel to try to nose in on market share--at least they did a couple of years ago..

As far as the design of the frame-- There all are very good. Surly doesn't brake any new ground.

But as a guy who works in the bike industry-- building up a frame is much more costly than buying a complete bike. Build up a Surly and you'll pay for every last cable stop, tube, seatpost, ect.... The retail price of every single part on a pre-built touring bike (like the Trek 520) is worth more that the cost of the complete bike... so think of it as getting a free frame when you buy a pre-assembled bike. It's way, way cheaper. Add bike shop labor charges and it's even worse for Surly.



Basicly, I'm not a person who is not impressed by bike names. Surly isn't a custom high-end bike-- it's not Bruce Gordon. It's a beater-- no better than Trek or any other Asian built frame. Right now, lots of bike buyers are overpaying $$ for the Surly name tag. It's a hot name. I say a smart shopper looks elsewhere.

I say look to Novara or Jamis for a quality bike at great price-- your hippie buddies might not like the name on the top tube, but basicly you'll have the same bike for much less.

KeatonR

Probably not bad advice -- especially for someone (like me, who started the thread) who's looking for a commuter/errand runner. I wanted steel, and I was taken with some of the pics of LHT builds I came upon on the internet.

As luck would have it, the very day I pressed the "But It Now" button on ebay, I stopped by my local used sporting goods store and saw a Jamis Nova that I would have otherwise purchased, and for a lot less.

Nevertheless, I can't wait for the Surly to get here.