webarchitect

I've been looking for a good bike for Ragbrai, general riding, and some touring a little further on. I was looking at the Novara Element as a choice when I ran across this forum. It looks like the company that makes it is liked but there were a few complaints about an aluminium body and something about the crankset only have 2 instead of 3 sections? I am fairly uneducated about bike parts, it looked like most of the reviews were for the 2004 - 2005 version of this bike.

Has anything changed for the better about the complaints about the bike? For my information what is bad about having an aluminium body and what effect does only having 2 section instead of 3 on the crankset do?

Any information is much appreciated

David

Thor29

Aluminum frames are usually more harsh - they don't soak up the bumps as well as steel. The Novara Element has typical cyclocross racing gearing. It has only 2 chainrings in the front and the difference between them is relatively small. What this means is that the lowest gear is not low enough for loaded touring and the highest gear is is not enough to keep up with road racers flying down a fast hill. Also, the disc brakes on the Element aren't really all that great - they have to be adjusted really close to the rotors to keep the levers from bottoming out. A much better choice would be the Novara Randonee - it was designed to be a touring bike. I would also recommend the Bianchi Volpe.

Old Hammer Boy

Check out the rei.com. It appears the Randonee is no longer offered. That would be a shame.

Old_Fart

I just checked and the Randonee is still on the website and showing available in all sizes. Their website is weird sometimes.

webarchitect

If you have a really good seat though wouldn't that remove most of the problem of having an aluminum frame? I would think aluminum would be lighter than steel, wouldn't that be the advantage? What do you think of the Safari from the same company?

I don't know why but this bike was in a completly seperate section but is shown as a touring bike as well. It still has the aluminium frame but it has 3 sections (chainrings?) I really think I need the disc brakes, I live in Iowa and would really like to have a nice multi-purpose bike that has nice stoping power in the snow and rain. The only thing I see wrong with the bike from my (inexperienced) standpoint is that it has more hybrid tires right now that are able to stand any surface, I probably would need to switch them to more of a road type tire for Rabgrai.

David

Cyclist0094

The steel vs aluminum bicycle debate has went on for decades. These days the two are so close in ride and handling and durability there isnt much logical debate left.

For RAGBRAI ( I rode it 1993),road touring and running around town for
3 seasons, the Randonee would IMO be an excellent choice.

The Safari is what is called a "trekking" or "expedition" bike , with it's 26" wheels it is essentially a Mountain bike with a rigid front fork and longer chainstays. It is a more versatile bike than the Randonee IMO since it can use tires ranging from a 1" wide road slick to a 2.25" wide studded snow tire. It can be ridden on road or off year round. The penalty for versatility is speed and weight. The Safari is 31 lbs, if you are riding Ragbrai with a bunch of skinny azz Lycra Lizards on 17 lb bikes and a sag wagon you are gonna be sucking hind teat on the hills unless your name is Lance. On the other hand no one will expect you to be fast on the Safari.

With the proper brake pads stopping in rainy or snowy conditions isn't an issue
with conventional rim brakes. I hear disks are better in rain or snow,I haven't tried them so I won't comment.

webarchitect

I've been reading more and I am almost convinced that the Randonee is the bike I should get. It looks like the frame itself is better and the Shimano Tiagra is a beter line than the Shimano Deore. With the Randonee I wouldn't have to switch the tires. The weight for both bikes is about the same, I have read the disc brakes are a bit heavier than the regular and the deore is a bit heavier of the set and that is probably the reason for the difference.

If I want to swich to disc brakes later on how hard of a switch is it? I was comparing parts on the 2 bikes and many of them are fairly similar so I am hoping it isn't that big of a change.

valygrl

Hi David,

From your original message, it sounds like you might be about to purchase your first real bike. If that's the case, you would be well served to get down to your local bike shops and do some in-person research, with a knowledgable sales person.

REI is a great all around gear store, but it's not a bike shop.

And it would not be a good idea to purchase a bike without a test ride and help from a real bike shop specialist to get the fit right. There is nothing more important than correct fit.

Oh yeah... you don't need disc brakes for rain. Not even with a fully loaded tour bike. And in snow, traction on the pavement is going to be a much greater concern than brake friction.

For touring bikes, also look at Trek 520 and Cannondale T800. And if you aren't planning on doing mostly fully loaded (carrying your own gear) touring, but really looking at "touring" meaning supported group rides like RAGRBRAI, then you might want to start looking at road bikes instead. Touring bikes are for hauling gear.

good luck, and happy shopping!

Anna

cyccommute 

Also look at the Rocky Mountain Sherpa and the Fuji Touring. For organized tours (blech!) you might be better off on something like a Specialized Roubaix, Giant OCR, or Cannondale Synapse. All would be good choices if someone else carries your gear and all you have to do is race for the showers.

I agree completely with Anna, don't get caught up in disc brake sexiness. They really aren't needed for most riders. If you ride in the rain alot (several times per week) they have utility but otherwise rim brakes work just fine. They haul my rotundness and all of my stuff down from screaming downhills just fine.

webarchitect

Thanks for everyones reply. I should probably explain a little. This isn't my first good bike per se. I am fairly uneducated as far as biking technology is concerned, but I am learning. I have a pretty decent Bianchi mountain bike but it doesn't make a good bike for some of the new stuff I want to do. Initally I was thinking about getting more of a hybrid comfort bike, but I was told that a touring bike might be more what I'm after, I'm not particually fond of stictly road bikes. I was initally looking at a Kona Sutra, but I've heard such bad things that I figured I should stay away from that one. I really had set on getting one with disc breaks, I've heard good things, and I'm really attracted to their stopping power and when I get a new mountain bike I definitly will get them on that.

I like that element but I don't like the crankset, I really like the randonee but the frame won't accomidate for disc brakes later on. I really really like that safari and I won't have to change the handlebars to the trekking style like I would with the others, but the Shimano Deore is apparently not even remotely good otherwise that would be my choice.

I've looked at a crazy amount of bikes Bianchi, Raleigh, Trek, Cannondale, Surly, those are the bikes available in my area and I'm not satisfied. I would even have to drive to Iowa City to look at the Kona, and its a 4 hr drive to the closest REI store. I have to admit I'm stumped on what to get, my price range is to $1500, I'm starting to think I'll just have to learn how to build my own.

webarchitect

Ohy, actually having wrote that I now realize part of my problem is a case of tranference, I want disc on my mountain really bad so I thought I needed them on this bike as well. Well that fixes one huge problem, now I have to go back through bikes. cyccommute that sherpa looks awsome, I just wish there was somewhere even remotely close to check it out.

Thanks Everyone

Cyclist0094

Since you are out there in Iowa you ought to call up Tom Teasdale, he is in the Des Moines area and is a very good frame builder. He might be able to put something together for you that you will like.
https://www.tetcycles.com/index.html

ScituateJohn

Don't let the Deore components scare you away from the Safari. Deore is decent stuff, and no worse or better than the Tiagra that is found on some touring bikes. If you want the disc brakes and a trekking handlebar, then get the Safari.

Disc brakes are good; I don't know why people are dissing them here. If you look hard enough, you can find racks that work with them too, and I think that the Safari already has one on it. Discs also perform better in the grime and slush than rim brakes, and if you bike in an area where they sand the roads, the rims will last longer if you use the disc brakes.

Also, as far as I can see, the REI in Boston is a full bike shop. So, they all aren't as bad as was the previous poster's experience. They have bike sales people and bike mechanics, and their prices are good too.

SMN21601

I am running a 2005 Novara Safari, got it in May 2006 on deep discount ($539) because it was "last year's model". It does not have disk brakes but has the deore gear set. I have had no problems after 3000 miles except for a few minor adjustments, like replacing the saddle with a more comfortable one...and changing the Conti tires out for Schwalbe Marathons because I kept getting flats. I ride mostly between 40-60 miles at a time and can keep a 16-18 MPH pace with my "true road bike" friends. I am planning on doing some self supported touring next year for 2-3 days at a time and if all goes well, looking to a TransAm in 2008.

Side note: REI is good to buy from because of the return policy and such, but not good as a "bike shop" for upkeep.

-Scott

cyccommute 

The reason I dislike discs for touring (I'm not a huge fan of them on mountain bikes either) is that you have to go looking of racks that fit. None of the bandaid racks work that well. They aren't easy to fit, they have limitations or they make a wheel change a complicated process. Delta makes a rack called the Disc rack but it's limited to 40 lbs which isn't enough for a touring bike. Topeak makes a rack that has standoffs to get around the calipers but a long bolt with a heavy load that sticks out away from the frame is a recipe for breakage. Old Man Mountain's rack is well built and strong, but it depends on the skewer for bearing all the weight. I never carried a touring load (or anything over my normal commuting load which is around 10 lbs) and I bent the skewer. Changing a wheel with it requires unloading the bike, removing the skewer and then the wheel. Then you have to line up everything to get it all back together. Tubus makes an adaptor system that uses a shorter skewer than the OMM but it suffers from the same problems as the OMM when fixing a wheel. All-in-all they are all disappointing.

And you don't gain that much, in my opinion, in braking power unless you are riding in rainy conditions. I've never suffered from lack of braking power with just cantilevers and I've ridden high mountain passes with screaming 40 mph+ descents. It's just not an issue, if the brakes are properly adjusted. Where I live, there isn't enough rain to justify the added complication of discs.

Finally, in my opinion, you end up with two wheels that are prone to spoke breakage because of the dishing rather than only one. Personally, I'd rather deal with only one weak wheel instead of two.

NoReg

"Delta makes a rack called the Disc rack but it's limited to 40 lbs which isn't enough for a touring bike"


If one read the fine print, a lot of racks are limted to 40 pounds which is about 2-3 times what I carry on the front. I think you are making a good point, and it's part of the reason I got into the custom rack game, but it isn't all that drastic. I wanted to fly in with some Tubus numbers but for some reason their low rider racks aren't opening for me at the moment. Of course if you are talking rear racks... never mind.

It's weird that the skewer system works with bobs and not racks, obviously the rack loads are vertical, still I would imagine that some of the loads one sees on bobs could break a skewer if it wasn't properly built.

Cantis are great and discs are not required. However, I did manage to serially outsmart myself with cantis and still haven't found a way to get good/safe stopping power on my current bike, or make front wheel changing reasonably easy. I have been doing my own wrenching on bikes for 30 years, so I am not feeling too clever about the whole thing. This is the great thing about getting a bike package vs. building out your own frame.

One way or another you need to find a combination that has a proven record. that's the funny bit about my experience I dropped 200 on neo retros and the stopping power and clearance issues got worse! The trap there is I used my superior technical knowledge to reach out to a better product rather than simply finding out what brakes the company that sold me the frame usually installed. d'oh!

Thor29

I'm not getting sucked back into the disc brake vs rim brake argument again.

You really can't go wrong with either the Safari or the Randonee. The components on the Safari are perfectly fine and if you wanted to tour there are racks that will fit the front inspite of the disc brakes. A lot of people like the Randonee as a touring bike. I strongly suggest taking both of them for a spin and seeing which one you like better.

As far as keeping up with roadies on a Safari - you will be at a significant handicap. You can either ride harder (like that dude Scott must be doing in a previous post) or you can relax and let them compare shaved legs as they ride closer to the front of the pack. The Randonee will also slow you down compared to a racing road bike, but that's not what these bikes are made for.

cyccommute 

The Disc Rack is for the rear. I haven't seen any good solution for a front rack and discs. The Tubus Tara might work. I'd take the weight limit on the Delta as gospel, perhaps a bit over optimistic. I have one and while it's a good light duty rack, I wouldn't put any kind of touring load on it. The p-clamps mounted about half way up the seatstay seem the weak link...both for the rack and for the bike. It also not nearly as stable, side-to-side, as a conventionally mounted rack.

My load split, by the way, is 60% front/40% rear for a typical 50 lb load. So I'm putting 30 lbs on the front rack.

I haven't had too much experience with a trailer but the skewer on the one I do have is shorter by a 2 to 4 inches then the OMM skewers. The attachment for the trailer is just outboard of the skewer while the load for the OMM are on the skewer themselves. That's a lot of pressure to put on the very ends of a thin piece of metal.

druidh

Pity you've been put off the Sutra. I've got one - with rack and mudguards - and have had no problems with it. I know of ONE poster who had a braze-on failure. What other bad things have you heard?

foggydew

I, too, do not understand the negativity surrounding disc brakes. I have a Kona Cinder Cone mountain bike with disc brakes and they are great. I am looking to upgrade my 94' Cannondale T700 to a newer bike in the next couple of years and am hoping that the major players will come out with a good touring bike with disc brakes PLUS a solution for the rack problem. It would also be nice if these "major players" could understand what tourers want as far as touring chainrings are concerned...