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Old 01-02-16, 07:06 PM   #26
BBassett
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Old thread, surprised it's still alive, but yes, I have purchased and will be taking possession of my TT Panamericana in two days. (01/04/2016) I decided in Nov of 2015 to get a Pamamericana and it is took over a year later before the bike was completed. Some of this delay was my fault, due to wanting a 750W motor mounted by Doug Snyder, California E-Bike. Most of the huge delay and the horrible experience in general was due to Peter White Cycles AND Tout Terrain. So now we have two different topics, the bike, and the experience of buying the bike.

Since the previous posts there have been some changes to the bike, different fenders, forks, front rack, but basically the bike is the same as if was built in 2006. I ran across an article on John Isles and his companion Cathy in the summer of 2014. John made an entry earlier in this thread. I then looked them up on CrazyGuyOnaBike. They were in South America buying cocca leaves with soda at a small store and living lives like none of us could even imagine. He and Cathy are my heroes. I decided at that moment to try the same things, even the Coca if the opportunity arises. Having read most everything they had to say about riding and the Panamericana frame, I started off with it as my primary choice. There isn't alot of info about the bike anywhere on the internet. Even John and Cathy don't have much info about maintaining the bikes. Just like them, the reason I chose this frame is there is NO un-sprung weight other than hardware from the shock down, i.e., the wheels, fork arms, and minor sub-frame, and that entire mass is sprung (so to speak) by the tire and tube. That means that everything you carry is sprung weight. If you don't understand sprung and un-sprung weight, do some research and you decide if it is worth paying for and dealing with any downside it creates. The One downside, is a little additional weight, well, two downsides, weight and additional technology that requires regular maintenance. Ok, three downsides, weight, additional maintenance and cost. Very comparable with today's fatbikes as far a weight is concerned. Higher purchase and maintenance costs are due to superior parts in transmission, suspension, dynamo and general build materials. It's a superior touring bike and if I need to say it again, NO Un-Sprung weight.

Unlike most people that want to spend great deals of time on a bike, I want Lots of creature comforts. Not riding from Hotel to Hotel comfort, but more comfort than just a blanket to throw on the ground. The 1st and most important comfort is Full Suspension, for both me and my gear. 2nd, I Want to be able to cook real meals when I choose, using wood for fire when available, gas when necessary and never have a problem accessing fire. 3rd, I want to be able to use a Hammock when I can, a Bivy when most easy, and throw up a large 4 season, 4 person tent to spend a few days in one place. 4th, I don't like mummy bags so a two person sleeping bag was a must, and that also meant two air mattresses. 5th, 6th, 7th, etc., Lots of camera equipment, a pc, actual furniture, lighting for multiple environments. Several tarps and ground cover combinations. Every convenience for dealing with water, filtration, storage, washing, transporting and so on. Tools including ax, saw, hammer, knives, and anything needed to maintain the bike. Again, not the average rider trying to save grams. All this mass means two things, money and weight. I'm not a superman, very far from it, one of the reasons I wanted to start this adventure in the first place. I needed an edge. With lots of research I chose to have a BaFang/8Fun 750w motor mounted. That with a 50v, 24.8aH battery will hopefully allow me to carry the additional comforts that I want and travel anywhere a bike can be peddled.

The Panamericana bike can be set-up in several configurations adding multiple thousands of dollars. A Rohloff transmission alone will add over $1600.00. Want to have USB power available as you ride, Yes you do! That takes a Dynamo and means over $300 for that little convenience, with the USB converter you'er over $400. Want Disc Brakes large enough to handle a load of 360 lbs on the bike, and a 15 lbs trailer carrying 70 lbs? What about a state-of-the-art light? ka-Ching! Ka-Ching! KA-CHING! Tout Terrain uses only one fork and one shock for the frame, but you can choose the size wheels, 700c or 26" X 2". I would have went even wider if possible. Superior workmanship, painting, design, and don't forget shipping! It all costs. But it you want full suspension and the mystic ride of no un-sprung weight on a tour bike, you only have two choices at this time. Tout Terrain and Riese & Muller. If I knew then what I know now, I would be the owner of a Reise & muller Delite. But I didn't want to start off with a production electric bike, I wanted to add an electric motor to a conventional (so to speak) frame. I also didn't know what to expect when buying a Tout Terrain product as I do now, and I don't advise it. If you want a lesson in futility try and find a front rack that will work with a suspension fork, one that actually suspends the weight carried in the panniers. The owners of TT remind me very much of Martin Shkreli the Ex-pharmaceutical CEO in their attitude. But in their case they make so little profit on the Panamericana that they don't give a crap if you want one or not. And if you Do want one... don't expect the kind of service you will want for spending as much as $8000.00 dollars. Also, don't expect to be able to take advantage of a weak D-Mark or Euro. They will just convert list price to dollars and charge whichever is highest and best for them. They also allow their chosen U.S. vendor to do whatever he wants concerning the sale. In my case this meant total frustration and a huge loss of time. It also meant the bike was never assembled, or tested, it was shipped missing multiple parts and not built to the specifications I requested. HEY! Tout Terrain! Your vendor should be capable to assemble your bikes if you are too lame to do it yourself! I have no idea if Riese & Muller are any better, but they cannot be worse than TT in customer service.

The bike is 1st class. If you are too stupid to see the advantages of using a Rohloff or good disc brakes then don't. But as far as riding a fully suspended touring bike is concerned, "There Is No Substitutes!" Steeling from another German Company, but unlike TT, one with stellar customer relations.
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Old 01-02-16, 08:16 PM   #27
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One of the wierdist bicycles I've ever seen.
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Old 01-02-16, 08:22 PM   #28
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Here's a crazy guy journal of a couple who use this kind of bike. https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/...d=374708&v=1FF
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Old 01-08-16, 12:00 PM   #29
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Unlike most people that want to spend great deals of time on a bike, I want Lots of creature comforts. Not riding from Hotel to Hotel comfort, but more comfort than just a blanket to throw on the ground. The 1st and most important comfort is Full Suspension, for both me and my gear. 2nd, I Want to be able to cook real meals when I choose, using wood for fire when available, gas when necessary and never have a problem accessing fire. 3rd, I want to be able to use a Hammock when I can, a Bivy when most easy, and throw up a large 4 season, 4 person tent to spend a few days in one place. 4th, I don't like mummy bags so a two person sleeping bag was a must, and that also meant two air mattresses. 5th, 6th, 7th, etc., Lots of camera equipment, a pc, actual furniture, lighting for multiple environments. Several tarps and ground cover combinations. Every convenience for dealing with water, filtration, storage, washing, transporting and so on. Tools including ax, saw, hammer, knives, and anything needed to maintain the bike. Again, not the average rider trying to save grams. All this mass means two things, money and weight. I'm not a superman, very far from it, one of the reasons I wanted to start this adventure in the first place. I needed an edge. With lots of research I chose to have a BaFang/8Fun 750w motor mounted. That with a 50v, 24.8aH battery will hopefully allow me to carry the additional comforts that I want and travel anywhere a bike can be peddled.
What's your range with that motor and battery?

With all that gear you are only going to pedalling unassisted on dead flats and downhill.

Does the motor have a clutch so that you can avoid its drag when pedalling unassisted?
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Old 01-08-16, 01:08 PM   #30
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What's your range with that motor and battery?

With all that gear you are only going to pedalling unassisted on dead flats and downhill.

Does the motor have a clutch so that you can avoid its drag when pedalling unassisted?

Hi Vic,

Thanks for the questions, unfortunately I don't have much data to share yet. When I went to pick up my bike it turned out that the front Dynamo from Peter White Cycles was faulty. It was causing a loud buzzing sound when the tire turned. Disconnect the wires to the light and the sound stopped. So the front wheel assemble has been sent back to have the hub replaced. Mr. White has been given directions to replace the front rim and hub with a 36 spoke version like I requested originally. Now we will find out if he is absent minded or just aq belligerent ass.

I can't give you any numbers on distance, but I bet you are smart enough to know the answer will be that it depends on load and terrain. You are correct in thinking that when riding uphill assist will always be needed. Although I see people riding with loads equal to what I will be carrying and they are using only food for fuel. The nice thing about the BaFang motor is that you can pedal at anytime and add torque which will extend the battery life, uphill, down hill, or across Florida. You are close enough to use the help of these guys, Grin News. Most everything you need will be available with them, hardware, software, and best of all batteries!
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Old 01-08-16, 01:33 PM   #31
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I can't give you any numbers on distance, but I bet you are smart enough to know the answer will be that it depends on load and terrain. You are correct in thinking that when riding uphill assist will always be needed. Although I see people riding with loads equal to what I will be carrying and they are using only food for fuel. The nice thing about the BaFang motor is that you can pedal at anytime and add torque which will extend the battery life, uphill, down hill, or across Florida. You are close enough to use the help of these guys, Grin News. Most everything you need will be available with them, hardware, software, and best of all batteries!
Bummer about the dyno hub. Hopefully Peter W will sort you out. I have dealt with him several times and not had any issues/complaints.

The range will vary of course, but with some use you'll have an idea of how far you can go under a few typical conditions. This will be important info so you can plan your routes and recharge spots.

If you are very fit/strong you can push a heavy load by leg power alone over normal touring distances or you can reduce your distances significantly if you are not a strong rider to whatever is manageable.

Thanks for the link. I'm an ultralight tourist and the last thing I want on my bike is a motor and battery. I was just curious about the range of the system you were using with a heavy load. I haven't kept up to date on ebikes and was wondering what sort of performance you could get these days.

I have tested ebikes before and the one issue I had was that without using the motor assist there was a ton of drag due to the motor which was why I asked if you had a clutch you could disengage the motor from the system. That way you just have to deal with the added weight of the motor and battery.
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Old 01-08-16, 02:45 PM   #32
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Old thread, surprised it's still alive, but yes, I have purchased and will be taking possession of my TT Panamericana in two days. (01/04/2016) I decided in Nov of 2015 to get a Pamamericana and it is took over a year later before the bike was completed. Some of this delay was my fault, due to wanting a 750W motor mounted by Doug Snyder, California E-Bike. ....
I usually tour in the 120 watt range where it is flat and not too hilly, up around 140 to 150 watts on big hills, up to 170 where it gets steep. (This is my estimate of my muscle power, I do not use electric propulsion.)

750 watts is roughly one horsepower. Why do you need something like that?
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Old 01-08-16, 03:13 PM   #33
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I usually tour in the 120 watt range where it is flat and not too hilly, up around 140 to 150 watts on big hills, up to 170 where it gets steep. (This is my estimate of my muscle power, I do not use electric propulsion.)

750 watts is roughly one horsepower. Why do you need something like that?
Hi,

For me it was more a question of trying to always have more (assisted) power than I need, rather than ever having less than I need. America sets a level of 750w and not to exceed 20 (something) mph on electric power only. In other words, what I own is still considered a bike, not an e-bike. Meaning no licences, or special paperwork. As to the amount of power.... I have already planned on riding the McGruder Pass to catch some great star gazing. Riding jeep trails with all my gear will take alot of climbing power. The weight difference between 250, 500 and a 750w motor is negligible.

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Old 01-08-16, 04:13 PM   #34
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Noted there have been several adaptations by Rohloff for way off the beaten track touring ..

1) is the 36 hole hub shell .. so you can build up a 3 cross pattern wheel , and flange support rings to hold the wheel in working condition .

until you can get a Mail Drop from the factory for a New Hubshell, Flange Support Rings: www.rohloff.de

3) also new is changing the Cog/ drive sprocket with a snap ring and a screwdriver, instead of a Chainwhip.

Sprocket: www.rohloff.de

(my 04 Koga WTR came with a 3 cross 32 spoke wheel build , unfortunately the key spoke was off so the pattern did not come out right, but there is a lot more aluminum to pull through
with that pattern than the 2 cross (or the 1 cross in my Bike friday built wheel))

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Old 01-09-16, 04:25 AM   #35
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I had a fully suspended touring bike the equal of the TT, at least unloaded. It was the also German Toxy. Really nice bike, front and back suspension, well laid out for touring, fancy lighting system fenders, racks front and back, Weird Sachs gear system, but it worked great. It is a recumbent, which in the end I decided was not for me, though going in it seemed like the solution to all my post accident issues. Eventually I got back on the road on a standard touring bike with 35 mm tires, and I was all set to go, no looking back. Desperate roads might be a reason to revisit the issue.
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Old 01-09-16, 06:13 AM   #36
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...

1) is the 36 hole hub shell .. so you can build up a 3 cross pattern wheel ...
Rohloff is very clear in their instructions, 2 cross for both 32 and 36 for both 26 and 700c. With the large flange, using 3 cross the spoke would come out of the rim at an angle that is much farther from perpendicular from the rim, that can lead to spoke breakages problems later.
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Old 01-09-16, 09:12 AM   #37
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I've heard that internal gear hubs are not as efficient as derailers. Is that the case with Rohloff? Anyone know the % difference in efficiency? But not having a bunch of stuff hanging off the back of the bicycle is worth something.
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Old 01-09-16, 10:01 AM   #38
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Its insignificant maybe 1% You can look it up on the R'off or other sites. people have made Graphs to show each gear combination .
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Old 01-10-16, 07:59 AM   #39
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I've heard that internal gear hubs are not as efficient as derailers. Is that the case with Rohloff? Anyone know the % difference in efficiency? But not having a bunch of stuff hanging off the back of the bicycle is worth something.
This article (link below) tests a new hub.

http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

But Rohloffs wear in over time and get more efficient as the internals get more polishing. This article (link below) does touch on efficiency improvement with wear, but not in any great detail.

http://www.hupi.org/HParchive/PDF/hp55/hp55p11-15.pdf

I saw steady mileage improvement over about 15,000 miles on my new 1989 Jeep Comanche as the engine and drive train wore in, same concept.
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Old 09-07-16, 09:34 AM   #40
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@BBassett - I was wondering whether you have an update on your TT Panamericana? I am looking at the new/soon to be released e-assist version. Do you ride it exclusively for touring or can you use it for commuter/city use? It's a big, expensive step for me, and there is little information on the Panamericana.

Thanks.
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Old 09-07-16, 01:36 PM   #41
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Panamericana w/BaFang 750w - 1300 miles, 55K feet climbed

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@BBassett - I was wondering whether you have an update on your TT Panamericana? I am looking at the new/soon to be released e-assist version. Do you ride it exclusively for touring or can you use it for commuter/city use? It's a big, expensive step for me, and there is little information on the Panamericana.

Thanks.

I saw the Panamericana ebike that TT is marketing and like everyone else they are doing all the same things wrong in my opinion. They are modifying the frame to hold the motor. They have a battery 1/2 the size they need to be using. They are making everything proprietarian. I also have received no help from TT when they were told about all the buying problems I had with Mr. White. That attitude scares me should any problems arise with the new model. I also wouldn't buy anything smaller than 750W motor which is bigger than most any european ebike. The difference between the Panamericana and other ebikes is the same thing that makes it stand out in a crowd, the frame that will support all the weight you need. As "RedandBlack" mentioned, John Isles and Cathy Colless have been using Panamericanas for years and have logged thousands and thousands of miles on theirs. I wrote to Mr. Isles and he informed me that neither of their bikes has required anything more than normal maintenance. They are the reason that I got my Panamericana, a truly inspiring pair that I admire with all my heart.

Before I give you any stats it needs to be pointed out that riding an ebike is not the same as riding a normal bike there is a whole new learning curve. Currently my bike weighs 115 lbs. loaded. And that's not a Full load. I carry two front panniers, motor, battery, water bottle, umbrella, ka-bar, locks, all the electronics riders carry today including a 5 lbs. bluetooth speaker and a over loaded handlebar bag. Each pannier weighs 20 lbs. I am 60 years old and weigh 290 lbs. That leaves two more panniers at 20 lbs. per bag and the TT Mule trailer carrying 70 lbs. of gear, food and water that will be added as training continues.

Ready for stats yet? Almost. There is no drag when you stop pedaling just like a traditional multi-geared bike. You can hear a soft clicking as the wheel turns but I don't feel any resistance... other than gravity trying to stop the 115 lbs. of bike I am riding. Don't get me wrong, the Schwalbe tires with tire liners, heavy tubes and tire additives don't make for great coasting. Also remember that the power from the chain is being transmitted to a Rohloff transmission which I highly recommend and works so beautifully with the BaFang motor. And the front rack is suspended which helps keep things smooth. Ok, so there are a ton of variables that will affect your own stats. That being said I am riding 40 to 50 miles on a single charge of the 24ah battery. NOTE: To extend the life of the battery I don't charge over 80% capacity and don't discharge past 20%. That leaves about 15ah of usable battery power. You are correct about peddling on flats and downhills but what you probably aren't thinking is that you ALWAYS pedal when going uphill. That is how you will save power. Use as little assist as possible both uphill and down. I will turn the assist Off when traveling downhill and turn it down as low as possible on flats and inclines. There have been times that with a good tailwind I can turn it off and pedal comfortably on flats at about 12 mph. I can also chase, catch and pass the streamlined, swelt, lycra clad traditional riders/racers that won't hardly even recognize me as a bike rider once they understand it's an ebike I'm riding. 30 mph is easy to reach if your aren't worried about conserving power, or say 15 miles per hour up a 10% grade. Distance or speed whichever is most important to you.

As far as using a Panamericana as a daily commuter with panniers and electronics etc... its a great (expensive) choice IF you have a place to keep it that you can relax and not worry about when stored. If you have access to secured storage or there are Bike Lockers available (LandscapeOnline.com) for you to use. Comfortable, durable, unique, and very versatile. Remember that if you buy a factory ebike it will always be an ebike. If you buy a bike and add a BaFang motor it can always be returned to the original setup. Both motors and batteries are evolving rapidly and won't necessarily be able to be upgraded on a factory produced ebike. I like the bike, I don't like the manufacturer. I like the motor, I don't like the weight of the big battery. $2500.00 for the Panamericana frame is expensive and it only gets worse as you add additional quality components. But those components are what makes the bike a truly unique and special ride. Last, but not least by any stretch of the imagination, remember that bike shops (for the most part) don't like ebikes. They don't understand them, they can't repair the electronics, the service techs. aren't trained on them and they are too expensive to fill a bike shop with on the owners dime. If you can build and maintain your own bike you can add a BaFang motor and maintain it too. Don't depend on bike shops for any help in this process all they want to do is sell you a factory produced bike, electric assist or not.

One last stat that may help. I rode 70 miles (https://ridewithgps.com/trips/10784713) with the bike at 115 lbs. and used 20ah of power. I charged the battery at the 1/2 way point for about 1 hour and 45 mins. totaling 6ah which got me home without dipping into the last 20% of the battery. I DO recommend the Panamericana when you get the Gold edition.
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Old 09-07-16, 01:53 PM   #42
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I usually tour in the 120 watt range where it is flat and not too hilly, up around 140 to 150 watts on big hills, up to 170 where it gets steep. (This is my estimate of my muscle power, I do not use electric propulsion.)

750 watts is roughly one horsepower. Why do you need something like that?
Why did farmers start using horses to help tend to the fields? So that they could accomplish more, with less effort. Work smart not hard.
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Old 09-07-16, 02:00 PM   #43
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Try some German Language Bike sites?
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Old 09-07-16, 06:07 PM   #44
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@BBassett - thank you for the detailed reply. I thought TT was going to use a 500W SwissDrive? Are they sticking with the 250W? If so, I agree that it is underpowered. Do you have a picture of your bike? I would love to see where the battery is located. Sorry if I missed that in an earlier post.

There seems to be no information anywhere on this bike. I did find some German sites that had the intro at EuroBike, but no further info on specs, power, etc. Maybe I just have to be patient - which is not one of my strengths.
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Old 09-07-16, 08:25 PM   #45
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Very little info because there are so few out there.

Dude I'm right there with ya! I spent over a year before I knew what I wanted and had to buy it before I ever rode one. That sucks. Regardless of them using a 250w or 500w I would still only recommend a add-on 750w motor. Find the perfect bike and "make" it electric. Do your research and you will end up at a 750w BaFang. Something you can change if you decide and still stick with the frame. I don't know how to add pics here for some reason so here is my email. ([email protected]) Feel free to send me a note and I will send you pics of my bike.
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Old 09-08-16, 09:25 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
I held off on a rohloff for several years because of this issue, I finally bit the bullet and bought a thorn last year. Of course, since then I have become aware of not one but several failures of the hub flange on rohloff hubs.

I agree with your points on disk brakes and full suspension on touring bikes.

They Now Offer a 36 hole hub shell and even a reinforcing ring ** A 36 hole 3 cross build
is much more tangent pull than the 2 cross 32 hole ..

Though my Koga WTR shipped 3 cross 32 hole , it does require you get the first spoke in Right,
because of the left end bolts* that hold the case together are between every 2 spoke holes ..


* 32 hole it's 8, 36 there are 9. ** https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/s...ngs/index.html


OK I'm Repeating Myself





./.

Last edited by fietsbob; 09-08-16 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 09-10-16, 11:44 AM   #47
velonomad
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Interesting bike, but for $5850 less..

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Old 09-11-16, 09:27 AM   #48
Timequake
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Here's a review for you: "Ugly as hell."
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Old 09-11-16, 11:15 AM   #49
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Once you Load it up with the 4 panniers and the rest of your gear and Look out to where you are Going.

the majesty of the Natural World , off the beaten paved tracks ..



Why does what it matters to other people sitting at a computer screen think about your Chosen Bike ..



In the look like most every other Bike, I Think Tout Terrain's Silk Road covers that well plowed field adequately enough.





./.
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Old 09-17-16, 08:37 AM   #50
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Why does what it matters to other people sitting at a computer screen think about your Chosen Bike ..

./.
Exactly! I don't care if people think it's ugly or the most beautiful bike they have ever seen. I wasn't looking for opinions on the esthetics - more looking for any additional information on the specs, ride quality, and if anyone is using this as an every-day bike.
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