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  1. #1
    eternalvoyage
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    Radical minimalist sleeping arrangements

    Deer sleep outside without tents, without pads, and without sleeping bags. Their summer coats are often sparse. They sleep well, even though the temperatures can vary quite a bit, and even though it is sometimes raining at night.

    Granted, many of us humans are relatively hairless mammals. However, there are all kinds of substitutes for a coat of hair. Various wicking, warm-when-wet fabrics and wools are among them.

    Deer often bed down in a little scrape in the forest. Bears do something very similar.

    Our close relatives in Africa (various large primates there) also sleep under the stars in simple nests, often made quickly from leaves and twigs.

    I once tried it while on tour, just to do it. One night I just slept on top of a big rock out in a lava field. I was able to get comfortable, even on a very hard surface, by positioning my body somewhat carefully, and finding a slightly sculpted indentation.

    Human beings also have rain gear. And layering systems.

    Why not sleep in a good rain suit? It simplifies things enormously.

    It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.

  2. #2
    nun
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    Sleeping in a scrape for your butt is an old way of being comfortable on the ground.
    Many minimalist folks use leaves etc as insulation, but you have to like bugs and insects.
    If the ground, or rock, is cold its thermal capacity will pull heat away from you fast which
    is why a sleeping mat is used by even the most mininalist folks. The most minimalist
    I'd want to go would be bubble wrap or closed cell foam as a mat and a bivy bag.
    here's a couple of good examples

    I did it, gear is under 20lbs

    http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/weight.htm

  3. #3
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    I don't know about going quite THAT minimalist... However many times in the summer all I have for sleeping protection is a light wool blanket, a piece of plastic sheet and perhaps a mosquito net. In the winter if stealth camping a sleeping bag and bivy sack are all I will use. For longer trips a tent comes in handy for the really rough weather. Humans have a very narrow range of body temps that can be handled and hypothermia is no fun.

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  4. #4
    Senior Member Lolly Pop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niles H.
    Deer sleep outside without tents, without pads, and without sleeping bags. Their summer coats are often sparse. They sleep well, even though the temperatures can vary quite a bit, and even though it is sometimes raining at night.
    . . . . It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.
    Interesting idea.

    For me though, a tent *is* minimalist!

  5. #5
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    Niles, you sound like you haven't slept outside much.

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    I tour to relax and enjoy the scenes and get away from stress I try to make it as comfortable as possible with out taking a big hit. For example I am not going to take dual pads but I will take a Z-lite. I wont take a full tent I will take a tarp tent setup sure if you want to go all primitive it is your life I want to be comfy
    The Ferrari ('05 Bianchi Forza) had a flat (Stupid Glass) the Japanese wagon ('77 Nishiki with Arkel Utility Basket) was in the body shop (On my bench being repainted...repent ye rust)
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  7. #7
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    OK, big disclaimer: I haven't camped in many a moon, so others no doubt have more experience than I. That said....

    Don't underestimate the evolutionary advantage of a fur coat. Even with 'em, many of our "cousins" are restricted to hot climates. And while our ancestors did not have Therm-a-Rests, they also didn't make it much past the grand old age of 25. I'm guessing that shelters are a part of why we now live to 70 or so.

    I might add that human bodies are substantially different than deer or caribou. So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.

    Fortunately, there are places and times when you can sleep without a shelter at all. If it's dry, minimal bugs, reasonably warm, and the ground is good, you're golden. Also, tarps are pretty minimal, very flexible, can keep out some of the rain, and maybe some bugs, but are much more open than tents.

    I'd also recommend that even if "no shelter" is your plan, bring along an ultralight bivy bag or a tarp, and some sort of space blanket or emergency sleeping bag anyway. You never know when a storm will kick up or the temperature will drop.

    Other than that, well, what more ideas do you need? I mean, if you're going to camp without Stuff, there isn't much to discuss, is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    Niles, you sound like you haven't slept outside much.
    +1

  9. #9
    eternalvoyage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
    So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.
    Thanks for all the humor, guys.

    ***
    Consider: The most primitive of recent human societies (technologically) was found in New Guinea, where the natives hadn't yet developed the idea of clothing.

    They slept out in the open. No clothes, no blankets, nada.

    Contrary to some assumptions, it did sometimes get a bit chilly during the winters. They shivered and adapted.

    ***
    Consider: Tibetan monks develop the ability to sit out in the snow and melt the snow with their bodies.

    ***
    Consider: Socrates was known for wearing sandals in the snow and being fine with it while everyone else bundled up.

    ***
    Consider: Biofeedback can be used to develop all kinds of unusual abilities (including not getting seasick or spacesick (space shuttle astronauts use it in training)).

    ***
    Consider: Why wouldn't well-designed layering systems work? Layer-vapor barrier-insulating layer-vapor barrier-another layer-rain suit, for colder conditions? Simpler layering systems for milder conditions?

    Are we (modern day humans) really so weak and overcivilized and etiolated [love that word] that we have lost the robustness to do some of these things?

    ***
    Consider: Summer temperatures in much of world are mild.

    ***
    Consider: I once toured in a tropical area that had some serious bug problems (including large centipedes and cckroaches that could locate you from the air and zero in on prospective food (in numbers)). I was bitten by a large centipede my first night out, while sleeping on the edge of a beach. My solution was to cover my whole body in clothing -- socks, cotton gloves, hat with netting to cover face, etc., and slept well that way (with no tent at times).

    ***
    Consider: I once tried sleeping out in the rain in thick Patagonia polypro. It was a warm climate, but not warm enough to sleep in the rain without some kind of insulation. It worked, and the polypro was multi-functional (unlike a sleeping bag, which isn't much good during the day).
    (It was clammy though, and the technique needs some refinement.)

    ***
    Consider: Tom Brown and other survivalists go out into the forests (temperate zone) with nothing, and survive.

    Why are bike tourists such wusses?

    (when it comes to this stuff at least)

  10. #10
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    I don't consider myself a wuss because I prefer to sleep in a tent (A full tent by the way, not just a tarp). The way I see it, if I sleep well, I can ride farther the next day then if I slept in the rain on a rock.

  11. #11
    eternalvoyage
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    I agree that a good night's sleep is important.

    Part of the challenge is to make it a good night's sleep as well.

    I might just sleep better in a good rainsuit with good earplugs than in a tent without the earplugs.

    ***
    (Of course it is true that the earplugs could be used (or not) either way; still, it does not seem a necessarily impossible task to get a good night's sleep without tent, bag, pad. There are some extra challenges, and parting with conventions; but it might just be a real possibility....)

  12. #12
    nun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niles H.

    Why are bike tourists such wusses?

    (when it comes to this stuff at least)
    I've slept on a Californian beach comfortably in a T-shirt and all i was afraid of was meeting Gidget,
    and if I was a Shaolin monk I could survive in the american West barefoot with only a blanket roll.

    Its true that most bicycle tourists carry more stuff than the ultralight backpackers, I've never understood
    that myself, but the survivalist folks you want to emmulate are really hardcore. Do it if you want, I admire
    your spirit, but I'd also advise caution, remember a tent, a bag and a mat can weigh under 4lbs.

    Also take a look at this link that I posted a while back for hardcore bicycle touring, they did take sleeping bags but no tent or mat, apparently the Gobi Desert is hard. I'm pretty wussy now that I'm old and have a credit card, but these guys are not....

    http://web.archive.org/web/200412110...tup.net/crane/

  13. #13
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    niles, i do consider all that and also know that for your comfort, you are better off taking a basic mat to sleep on and some type of sleeping system. the ground sucks the heat right out of you, even on 'warm' summer nights. Tom Brown would make a lean to, a mat and some insulation in the woods.

    I've seen animals shivering in the rain.


    I've slept outside hundreds of nights, likely over a thousand in my life, and a dozens without sleeping bags or mats. I've slept in a snowbank during a blizzard by diving in wearing wool clothing. I lived on a beach one summer with nothing but a wool blanket. sand gets cold.

    I've camped out in the winter in a pine bough lean to, and snowcaves. I've slept curled up next to trees in the rain. I've bivied on rock ledges sitting on ropes. I've spent the night outside with my feet stuffed in a backpack and wearing a rainshell.


    yes, you will likely survive without a lot of creature comforts, but shivering the night away until dawn breaks is not an enjoyable or restful way to spend the night. and it's always darkest before the dawn....


    get yourself a nice light sleeping bag, some weigh one pound, and a mat system of some kind. you'll be very happy you've moved beyond mere animal survival.

    Here's a photo of a bike touring sleep system using a emergency medical bivy bag, a pad, a hat, a down vest and some newspaper for warmth.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-16-07 at 11:00 PM.

  14. #14
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    A tarp, sleeping pad, and quilt is pretty simple and will keep you warmer than sleeping in a rain suit. Sleeping in the rian in a rainsuit would be a truly miserable experience, even if you don't end up with hypothermia. You will end up completely soaked in short order. Rain gear is designed to shed water downward when you are mostly vertical. When you are horizontal, the water will have no trouble getting in.

    A better idea would be to get an ultralight poncho/tarp combination. You can wear the poncho for rain protection during the day, and pitch it as a tarp in the evening. One piece of gear with two uses. It would be a bit cramped and not have room for much gear though.

    Don't give up on the idea of a sleeping pad and bag (or quilt). Sleeping on bare ground in any but summer conditions will suck the heat out of you. Putting together a bed of dry leaves and pine needles is great so long as there are dry leaves available and they are not full of insects. Otherwise, a thermarest is pretty handy and gets a lot of use.

    BTW, what you do in a survival situation is much different than when you plan ahead. It's foolish to eschew proper equipment unless you know exactly what you are doing. People who specialize in playing survival games generally have considerable experience and practice under controlled conditions. Even then, you'll probably find they spend quite a bit of effort making shelter. Putting up a tent would be much simpler.

    If you want to experiment, then give it a try, but keep your regular gear handy in case things don't work out.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Shemp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niles H.
    It seems that this idea could be taken further. Maybe someone on this forum can help forge some new possibilities for simpler, more minimalist sleeping arrangements.

    Which begs the question... why?


    If a deer could sleep in a climate controlled shelter out of the rain and away from disease carrying ticks & mosquitos, and were smart enough to do so, don't you think they would? They do it because they have to and know no better. That's the great thing about evolution.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niles H.
    Thanks for all the humor, guys.

    ***
    Consider: The most primitive of recent human societies (technologically) was found in New Guinea, where the natives hadn't yet developed the idea of clothing.

    They slept out in the open. No clothes, no blankets, nada.

    Contrary to some assumptions, it did sometimes get a bit chilly during the winters. They shivered and adapted.

    ***
    Consider: Tibetan monks develop the ability to sit out in the snow and melt the snow with their bodies.

    ***
    Consider: Socrates was known for wearing sandals in the snow and being fine with it while everyone else bundled up.

    ***
    Consider: Biofeedback can be used to develop all kinds of unusual abilities (including not getting seasick or spacesick (space shuttle astronauts use it in training)).

    ***
    Consider: Why wouldn't well-designed layering systems work? Layer-vapor barrier-insulating layer-vapor barrier-another layer-rain suit, for colder conditions? Simpler layering systems for milder conditions?

    Are we (modern day humans) really so weak and overcivilized and etiolated [love that word] that we have lost the robustness to do some of these things?

    ***
    Consider: Summer temperatures in much of world are mild.

    ***
    Consider: I once toured in a tropical area that had some serious bug problems (including large centipedes and cckroaches that could locate you from the air and zero in on prospective food (in numbers)). I was bitten by a large centipede my first night out, while sleeping on the edge of a beach. My solution was to cover my whole body in clothing -- socks, cotton gloves, hat with netting to cover face, etc., and slept well that way (with no tent at times).

    ***
    Consider: I once tried sleeping out in the rain in thick Patagonia polypro. It was a warm climate, but not warm enough to sleep in the rain without some kind of insulation. It worked, and the polypro was multi-functional (unlike a sleeping bag, which isn't much good during the day).
    (It was clammy though, and the technique needs some refinement.)

    ***
    Consider: Tom Brown and other survivalists go out into the forests (temperate zone) with nothing, and survive.

    Why are bike tourists such wusses?

    (when it comes to this stuff at least)
    Do what ever you want but don't come crying when you come back with a strange disease. I must be a wuss because I am not a tibetan monk or socreates that makes a lot of sense
    The Ferrari ('05 Bianchi Forza) had a flat (Stupid Glass) the Japanese wagon ('77 Nishiki with Arkel Utility Basket) was in the body shop (On my bench being repainted...repent ye rust)
    so I took the SUV ( Cannondale V2000 Active 100SL)

  17. #17
    Senior Member permanentjaun's Avatar
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    I'll be going somewhat minimalist this summer. All I'm bringing on my tour is a bivy and thermos blanket. I plan on doing as you said and sleeping in my rain gear and perhaps some of my casual clothing that is softer. I'll use my dromedary bag or compression sack as a pillow and foot rest. I'm still young so I could probably get away with it more than others. It's certainly not as minimalist as your scenerios, but I still want some protection and comfort. If I bring these items on tour I might as well find ways to utilize them in my sleeping arrangements.

  18. #18
    Lentement mais sûrement Erick L's Avatar
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    Its true that most bicycle tourists carry more stuff than the ultralight backpackers, I've never understood that myself
    Because it's a lot easier to carry stuff on the bike than on one's back.

    So pointing out that deer (10 yr average life span btw) don't use dome tents isn't particularly useful.
    Considering average lifespan, I'll take the tortoise approach and carry my home everywhere!
    Erick - www.borealphoto.com/velo

  19. #19
    Life is short Ride hard
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    Quote Originally Posted by permanentjaun
    I'll be going somewhat minimalist this summer. All I'm bringing on my tour is a bivy and thermos blanket. I plan on doing as you said and sleeping in my rain gear and perhaps some of my casual clothing that is softer. I'll use my dromedary bag or compression sack as a pillow and foot rest. I'm still young so I could probably get away with it more than others. It's certainly not as minimalist as your scenerios, but I still want some protection and comfort. If I bring these items on tour I might as well find ways to utilize them in my sleeping arrangements.

    If you sleep in a bivy why would you wear your rain gear what is your bivy made out of mesh
    The Ferrari ('05 Bianchi Forza) had a flat (Stupid Glass) the Japanese wagon ('77 Nishiki with Arkel Utility Basket) was in the body shop (On my bench being repainted...repent ye rust)
    so I took the SUV ( Cannondale V2000 Active 100SL)

  20. #20
    nun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick L
    Because it's a lot easier to carry stuff on the bike than on one's back.
    But its also easier to carry less weight. I like my comfort, so I want a tent with a floor that is mosquito proof, a sleeping pad and a down bag or quilt and if I can get these to weigh as little as possible so much the better. I know that with ultralight stuff you can reduce weight without sacrificing much, if any, comfort.

  21. #21
    Gone, but not forgotten Shiznaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick L
    Considering average lifespan, I'll take the tortoise approach and carry my home everywhere!
    hahaha I think a tortoise is a very appropriate image for bicycle tourists

  22. #22
    I'm made of earth! becnal's Avatar
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    I believe the OP is interested in picking up a Bivvy sack.

  23. #23
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    37 years ago while a friend and
    I were spending the summer camping in wyoming/Montana and Canada I enede up irreversibly damagin my heavy duty air mattress ( the standard at that time prior to foam pads). I slept for about six weeks on only a sleeping bag and a ground cover tarp that could fold over me if it rained. The first night I was miserable and felt every stone no matter how tiny. After that I slept well and did not notice any discomfort for the remaining trip. However I was 16 years old then and would not want to do it at this point in my life.

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    Permanentjuan has an interesting approach born of curiosity and an adventurous spirit. A few ideas may be verging on dangerous, but responses verging on nasty are really not neccesary.

    I say get a small 1 man tent, a foam camping pad cut down to 4 feet long, and an ultralight 60 degree summer bag. You don't want to spend 2 hours trying to find a cave or building a house out of sticks and dental floss when it is pouring out. And rain sounds much nicer bouncing off your outer tent wall than off your nose and cheeks.
    slowride

  25. #25
    eternalvoyage
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    Thanks to all for the postings here.

    One possibility that interests me is what I just came to see as a 'wearable bivy' -- one that allows increased mobility over a standard bivy.

    Bivies and small tents (and (enclosed) hammocks) all share a quality that is not so great: they are cramped, and even claustrophobic, especially if your are stuck in them during long storms. How many people would voluntarily choose a home, or even a room in a home, that is this size?

    If you had a purpose-built, functional, wearable bivy, with goggles, you would be in a very different position in relation to spaciousness.

    (side note: although I agree with the basic point, I also think it is literally true that most deer would not enjoy a very enclosed space. There is something about being out under the open sky. It is one of the good things about being outside. It is one of the good things about cycling. (I think some have even mentioned this on other threads recently.)

    You aren't cooped up (as you are in a car, an office, a room, a house, or a ___________).)

    It seems very liberating to me.

    ***
    Another way of looking at it is as a spacesuit. Or at least something similar -- something that would allow you to live and move in hostile environments.

    I've never quite seen this done.

    Except I did once see a guy who seemed to be living out of a small backpack, and he had an excellent Goretex rainsuit and hood, and was quite at home walking in the rain.

    The wearable bivy is just an extension of this.

    It could also have minimalist, built-in padding. The padding could serve several purposes, including insulation against cold ground, and injury protection while cycling (under some conditions at least). Good closed cell foam hip padding, for example, could work this way.

    It might have to be a modified (or custom-made) rain suit to work well in the horizontal position.

    I see no insurmountable barriers to making something like this work.

    And, since it is a relatively fine-tunable layering system, it could keep you warm-enough-but-not-too-warm (unlike many sleeping bags) in a fairly wide range of conditions.

    It could save a lot of trouble, too, and weight and complexity; and it could open up some new possibilities for camping sites. Setup could be very simple.

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