GreenAnvil

I know, search the forums...and I have. But I wanted to get some feedback/answers from you all...

1) stealth camping... - what's about this anyway? You're riding on the road, night falls, and you just leave the road and set up camp in the middle of bushes? What about bears, mountain lions, snakes, big foot, chupacabras, and thugs?
2) recommendations for a first trip.... mileage? route planning?
3) anyone doing family touring (with kids) and can care to comment? thx

Thanks!!!
GreenAnvil

Burningman

Everything is here:

www.bicycletouring101.com

It's a good starting place if your new to touring

Once you've been touring for awhile,you'll know there is just too much to write here.

There is No Wrong Way....Just Stories Along The Way

If your iffy about your bike,start there and get it tuned up and solid(you'll be living with it for the duration)

jnoble123

Wow! Thanks for the kind words!

Unfortunately there is still a huge amount to write about (and I have a lot of Contributors who also assist which is particularily great news since Schwalbe has continued their sponsorship of Bicycle Touring 101 contributors).

Twenty-three days until my next tour (but who's counting anyway! (grin) )

~Jamie N

NoReg

"in the middle of bushes? What about bears, mountain lions, snakes, big foot, chupacabras, and thugs"

Well, as far as any of that is concerned, a rondom campsite is far less likely to get a hit from most such hazzards than any designated campsite. Take for example some totally choice bear hunting cover in manitoba or ontario. Imagine it has never been hunter before, or not recently, but it is exactly the kind of place hunters pay big bucks to hunt. Do you think setting up your tent just anywhere will guarantee a bear vist, not really. It takes choice preparation, maybe smudge burning bacon, etc... repeated hits on a fermenting grain barrel. Meanwhile there are any number of parks where you have to beat the bears away with a warden to have any peace at all.

Much the same idea with thugs. Do you routinely see gang members searching the foliage for marks. Aren't they more likely to hang out in higher concentration areas.

In theory the idea is to be stealthy, which means you would never be seen, but I imagine a lot of time that isn't what happens. One is partly drawn by stealth, but also other ideal characteristics of a given site, and it may be a compromise situation.

NoReg

On kids, I think that would be tough. I could see mine being happy to do pretty local tours, maybe more MTB oriented for the fun, stopping at lakes. Snowmobile trail kinda stuff. They get bored of riding continually though. My kids are 10-1+, the oldest is the worst, though she is athletic, interest just isn't there yet, and I don't blame her one bit. I have never seen a kid who seems to believe the bike is for racing snails, a walker can easily keep up with her.

I have read some good blogs on crazyguyonabike about families that cycled across Canada, it certainly can work.

sykerocker 

Since you admit to being a newbie, please allow me a few words about my thought on stealth camping. I live on 10 acres of woods, in a rural area, wonderful bicycle country, very close to bicycle route 76, the nearest town (no traffic light) is a four mile ride. Should I find someone coming onto my property needing a place to camp, and asking, he's got two choices: He can either stake the tent in my back yard, or, he's got an invitation to my guest room, fridge full of beer, supper, shower and flush toilet, etc. This has always been my attitude to two wheeled travellers, be they on a Harley Road King or Surley LHT.

However, should he decide to sneak on the property and set up, he's going to find himself staring down the double barrels of a 20-gauge, and run off the property - and I will consider it entirely optional on my mood to return his bike, tent, etc.

The difference is the respect he's just shown me. Whether he's willing to ask to use my property, or just taking the attitude that it's his for the night.

Having been out of cycling for over 25 years before my return, I'd never heard of the concept of "stealth camping" until a few months ago, and since it now has a name (which it sure didn't back in the 70's, and I crashed in a few cemeterys in my time, the only places stop without asking permission) I can only assume that it's become the camping of choice for a lot of people. And I get a real sense of unease about the morality behind it.

Man, the property owner has rights, including the right to not have you on his property if he so wishes. Please remember that. And ask. And if the answer is no, head further down the road. Obviously, you quit a little earlier in the day to give yourself enough time to find an allowed place to rest your head.

It makes the trip a whole lot better.

valygrl

welcome to the sickness......

I wouldn't stealth camp w/kids. Sometimes I camp for free, with permission, in city/county parks or fairgrounds or the like. mostly i camp in campgrounds. every once in a while, i camp behind someone's house, or store, or something like that, after asking. sometimes i get invited to spend the night in their home or RV.

You don't have to stealth camp. Some of the stealth camping crowd here has a bit of an attitude about it, like somehow it's bette or something. I guess if your financial situation requires it, that's fine, it's an option. but like syke, I'm not psyched about the 'steal' part of the word 'stealth'. i'll free-camp if it's legal... but not so into poaching.

You can just stay in campgrounds - forest service, private, RV parks, etc. some hostels and even hotels allow camping oneir premises (mostly found this in New Zealand & Australia, not really in the states). If you are on public land - national forest, bureau of land managment - dispersed camping (no services) is usually allowed. Also, you can sleep in hostels and motels. it's allowed.

I bet most kids would have more fun if they get to hang out with other kids at campgrounds, and have amenities like toilets and ice cream.

For your very first tour, locate a few campgrounds within a short distance - 30 miles ? - from your home (or from somewhere you want to park your car), pack as if you are going across the country, and just go for one or two nights. then you can figure out what you need/don't need. I guess from the springs I might go to penitente (not sure about distances tho')

after that.... well, you're in colorado.... just ride into the mountains and ride around until you are sick of it or run out of time, then ride home!

www.adventurecycling.org has maps especially for bike touring, they have specific routes, with info about where services are (food, water, lodging, bike shops), as well as milage & elevation profiles. you could pick a chunk of about any of their routes (some in CO) and do that for a start. or do a whole route. it's a good way to break into touring, it's a headstart on figuring out how to be on the road, while not having to also deal with making big mistakes about what roads are safe to ride on.

have fun!!!

GreenAnvil

Hey folks, thanks much for the tips/comments. I'll read up on Bike Touring 101 and AdventureCycling.

Syke, one of my sisters who now lives here in Parker used to live in Montpelier, then Burlington. After her husband passed away and she moved out West. I just got here a couple of months ago from Upstate NY. I think your advice on "stealth" camping is right on. Thx.

Valygirl, thanks for the local (Colorado) tips. My main route into the mountains (as far as I know) is via Woodland Park and some co-workers have been telling me not to go up that way 'cause it's crazy (the drivers). I'll start small (short distances) and see how that goes. I'm planning a short (2-3 day) tour to get me started. Probably July.

Pan, having lived in NYC and coming from NY (Upstate but still) I just had to ask... there are some sick people out there. I know you can't think about that all the time and go touring but I just want to have an idea what safety precautions I need to take.

All: My wife and kids (14 and 12) are into riding, camping, and photography, and just hanging out together. So I was thinking/hoping that we can do some touring together; I believe Trek (?) even offers touring vacation packages... perhaps I can save the cost of guides and just do it myself like I've read many stories here and crazydudesonbikes (or something like that). I just need to get the logistics down and if I pick a good route then we should have a good time.

GreenAnvil

NoReg

GA, I just had a bad experience in Upper NY. I hear you.

The stealth part of it for me never connected up with the kid part. I don't want any part of that. Except that, I maintain that not all stealth camping is about stealing or violating individual property rights. There are plenty of reasons to take only photographs, leave only footprints, and reveal no visual clues that can be readily seen. In backpacking terms this has been written about extensively where some of the mountain trails have well spaced campgrounds that one is supposed to use, but one does not have to use them they are optional for good citizens. The stealth part comes in when you choose other campgrounds that have superior characteristics, and you don't want to tip your presence either to draw more wear to them or for normal security or privacy reasons.

There are also many areas where there is a difference between the law and custom. Many people adjacent to beaches will proclaim ownership they don't have just to bums rush you off. I know several beach areas where there are low water ownerships and high water ones, and people who think they have low water ones. In one case you are on public land in the other you are not, only searching local deeds will tell you, and even then it takes a lawyer by property. I know of some special status areas where people have put up signs saying you can't enter the area (though served by normal public Hwy) for any reason. These are not lawful signs and some of these areas have crown lands on them. I would certainly avoid the latter areas! But still the point is that there may be areas you are allowed to camp but will face local opposition, so why court it. There are also countries that have perfectly legal local camping rules, but again perfect camouflage can make the world a lot easier for someone who is lost; has an earnest desire to be in accordance with local laws and customs, but may merely have goofed. Asking the landowners is not always a possible since in some cases they are in denial about changes that took place in the '20s.

Let me start by saying that I unconditionally, sincerely, accept SR's expertise in maters relating to local self-defense laws, property rights, and issues that may govern disposition to them. I had a friend in Ovando Montana, whose neighbours were murdered by a transient. This stuff happens. The double barreled shotgun thing does come up a lot though, and here are some thoughts:

1) Gunfighting wisdom:

a) Don't make use of an empty weapon;

b) Don't make use of/blandish a loaded weapon (presentation of deadly force), that you would not actually use (use of deadly force);

c) If you kill someone you are probably going to be broke by the time your legal defense is exhausted, and you are also fairly likely to end up in jail. Better to be judged by 12... But only if you had good reason.

2) Gunfighting law (as badly mixed up by me a non-authority).

a) Actions in a self-defense environment should not be escalated, and they should be proportional. There are various scales that describe the escalating sign posts, verbal, physical. These allow the police and other skilled practitioners to respond appropriately. This does not mean you can't go immediately to deadly force, but there normally needs to be a reason. I'm not offering this as legal advice, I'm incapable of that. All I take from it is that there is some structure to these relationships that should be understood by those involved. Actions on both sides may be misinterpreted by those involved who all may respond tragically. The management of force may immediately put one's own actions under higher scrutiny than the camper's.

3) Gun Safety Rules;

These are incredibly widespread and international, three of the more relevant are:

- All guns are loaded

- Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to see destroyed

- Keep your trigger off the finger until the sights are on the target.

OK. If you work backwards, anyone in the regions these safety rules are in force or where first voiced, should assume that, an apparently responsible gun owner pointing a gun at them, with the finger on the trigger, is in the act of killing them. There would probably have to be a vibe present also. This is not a neutral signal. The US has by far the most sophisticated gun culture. Sure not all gun owners are sophisticated. However, the correct tactical response to deadly force is...

At the very least this picture presents the threat of deadly force. The person presenting the weapon will not necessarily be immediately identifiable as in the "right" The claim by some person to be a landowner is a lot harder to verify than the immediate reality that one is in the likely process of being killed.

4) Bad things that happen around good people

I know of cases where landowners summarily shot trespassers and also got away with it, were freed by local courts. One famous U.S. case involved a CBC photographer who was invited to film on the property by a tenant, and was shot by the land owner. At the time he was shot, he was a few feet from the edge of the property, with a heavy camera, backpedaling visibly. Also heard of a case where two guys who were enemies met, and one summarily shot the other, because he knew him to be armed. This wasn't an escalating event, the one merely took advantage of the fact their enmity was know, they were know to be CCP holders and one shot the other with the defense "he was about to shoot me" and got away with it. This stuff cuts in many directions.

Throughout human history the overwhelming response to travelers has been a duty to provide hospitality, no mater the cost. This holds across many cultures. The principle that one can summarily shoot or threaten with deadly force a, trespasser, particularly one who shows no signs of being a threat, is a standout. If there is any moral justification for that kind of behaviour. Such actions surely must be founded on a reasonable presumption that any person trespassing, certainly any person entering one's home unannounced, is up to no good, and one may be too pressed to sort it out, under the circumstances. There is no moral justification for treating someone this way that one's very own sporting interests prepares one for, who's objectives are readable as a fellow cyclist. Sure, an anti-city folk neighbour might be scared. But could anyone on this site really claim the same. Not to say a landowner needs to put up with a trespasser.

Eddie Loves You

Yeah, seriously Syke, I hope the shotgun thing was a euphemism; when you're pointing a gun at something, you're broadcasting intent to shoot it.

cyccommute 

Some things to know about stealth camping in the State of Colorado (and a few other states as well). Land owners here don't have to post no trepassing signs nor do they even have to place any designation as to their property lines. As someone using of the outdoors, it's your responsibility to know where their property starts and ends (I know it sucks but that's the law). If you are caught on someone's property illegally, they can't shoot you. Not that they won't threaten but they can't legally kill you for going on their property. However, they can call local law enforcement and you will be required to appear before a judge. That could be quite a ways away depending on where you might be. Also, if it's a Friday, you won't be seen before the judge before Monday or Tuesday (if you are counting that's 5 days ) Meanwhile your stuff may still be out in the woods...your bike, tent, camping gear, etc. Then, after you've seen the judge, the local constable may not be helpful enough to take you back out to your gear. And, if you happen to get a ride back out to your gear, you'll have to get permission to retrieve it from that landowner...and they may not be inclined to let you get it back...if it's still there.

So you have to ask yourself, is a nice secluded campsite worth all of your touring gear and fines, court cost and possibly lawyer's fees? Possibly hundreds of dollars?

That's why I never stealth camp. That and the fact that I was raised to respect other people's property (small ranching town kid). Either ask first or find someplace else.

You can easily tour with teenagers. You can even do some more strenuous trips than you might with younger kids. However, you need to make it fun and not a death march. One of the best ways to do this is to use the railtrails that you can find in many states. I done many trips with my family on them and we really enjoy them. They are flat, relatively traffic free, usually go interesting places and have a lot of history associated with them. Some interesting ones are the Michelson Trail in South Dakota and the Elroy/Sparta trail (and connected trails) in Wisconsin. One that I haven't tried but would love to is the C&O Canal from DC to Philadelphia. The Erie Canal would be fun too.

For trips in Colorado, tell me where you want to go and I'll help you with a route. If you are willing to use dirt roads or a mountain bike, it opens up lots more possibilities.

SanDiego

In most US states, if you "brandish a weapon" on a person not making a threat to you, you'll not only be going to jail but you could be on the losing end of a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Finding someone camping on your property is NOT a legal reason to point a gun at them - you can call the police and have them deal with the person and possibly arrest them, but anyone who says they have a right to point a loaded weapon at a camper is going to not be a property owner much longer if the camper takes 'em to court.

Also - if the camper tries to leave and you prevent the person from leaving, you're looking at kidnapping and unlawful detainment charges, possibly felonies.

You certainly have the right to kick people off your property and prevent them from coming in, but if you take matters into your own hands as the testosterone-filled guy with the gun stated earlier, you're going to jail and probably getting sued.

GreenAnvil

Alright folks... thanks again for your views on stealth camping. Please let's not allow this to escalate into an emotional debate; some people stealth camp and others don't. After hearing both sides, I think I am on the side of asking for permission. Besides, my experience tells me that laws are enforceable "after the fact", and I don't want to put myself or my family in harm's way whether the alleged property owner has the "legal right" to shoot me or not. After I'm shot (if that should happen), who the heck cares if the shooter was right or wrong?

Dudes, all I want to do is ride and have a good time. So I'll try to stick to camps or ask for permission and see how that works out.

Cyccommute, I'll look at the map and some guides and give you some potential/interesting destinations you could help me create routes for.

Once again, thanks everybody. Good roads and steady tailwinds to you all.

GreenAnvil

sykerocker 

That argument no doubt carries weight in Calfornia.

I'm from rural Virginia. Guess who the police would listen to first?

sykerocker 

No it's wasn't. About fifteen years ago, I caught someone in my yard one night, who just happened to be testing my windows to see what might be unlocked. I didn't have to shoot, just held him at gunpoint while the ol' lady called the police. And no, they didn't question why I was holding a gun on someone, they just carted him off and I made my report. He spent some time in jail, for mine and a few other instances where he was more successful.

That was when I lived in Pennsylvania - here in rural Virginia, if anything, the legal and police attitude is even more on the side of the homeowner. And I understand the implications. My father first put a gun in my hand at the age of five, 52 years ago, and he taught me well.

From the last few postings it appears that my attitude is an extreme reaction to some people, but look at it from my point: I'm seeing someone out in the woods, it's getting dark, and I sure haven't invited anyone on the property. I have no idea who or what this person(?) is. And until proven otherwise, I'm going to expect the worst and be prepared for it.

You know you're a harmless bicycle tourist. Until I've met you, and we have a chance to converse for awhile, I don't. Please remember that.

This isn't about guns, force, testosterone, redneck attitude or anything else of that kind. It's about one thing - respect - and a stealth camper, by his actions, shows that he has no respect for me, or for anyone besides himself. After all, he'll happily steal somebody else's property for a day, just because he wants it. Replace plot of land with, say, Colnago and see how you feel about that action even if the bike is returned a day or so later.

If I've offended anyone with my bluntness, I apologize. However, I am a biker, and in my world the concept of respect is treated with a slightly sharper edge than in the general populous. What I'm saying is no different than a few other comments made here, I just naturally tend to make them a bit more forcefully.

sykerocker 

And thanks for putting up with my windy attitudes Likewise, may you ride safe, never have a steep hill or headwind facing you, and may it never rain when you're riding.

greenstork

Based on the preceding comments, I'm going to recommend not stealth camping in Montpelier, VA

Respect is a relative term skyerocker. Some countries allow camping anywhere, including on private land. Your apparent reaction is to immediately distrust everyone, which is an unfortunate commentary on the state of the world and the culture in which we live.

SanDiego

Attitudes like that are precisely why many of us (including Americans) do NOT want to cycle in the USA, particularly the Atlantic Coast.


But we're talking about 'stealth camping' here, which I assume means the camper is:
* very close to the road
* very far from any homes
* not near a 'no trespassing sign'
* completely unarmed
* not making a fire, not dropping trash
* very quiet

In the case where someone is trying to enter your house -- I agree, you have a right to hold them at gunpoint and call the police. You reasonably assumed you were at risk, and I would do the same as you did.

But the previous statements -- holding people at gunpoint, and stealing their gear and bike because they camped in a corner of your 10 acre estate? And you're PROUD to post that here with an international biking community audience? That's embarassing to me as a fellow American. And those who are bragging that the police will look the other way while you shake down and steal from the biking visitor -- gee what else are you proud of? That you married your sister, or that you still have 3 of your front teeth?? That's not a commentary on the 'world', just the backwater place where this guy lives.

BTW, I'm actually "pro-gun", and against stealth camping unless it can't be avoided.

Bacciagalupe

Although I do not own a shotgun and hope I never have to point a weapon at another human being, I agree that your general attitude is correct. Camping on private property without the express permission of the owner is extremely rude, and realistically the owner has no way to tell the difference between a harmless cycle tourist and a potentially unpleasant vagrant.


Actually, I think it's a fairly small minority, just a somewhat vocal one. After all, stealth camping requires that you give up more creature comforts than using campsites, like showers, cooking etc.



What, you think that if you get caught stealth camping in Texas, they're going to make you some hot chocolate?

(FYI, in Texas a property owner is allowed to use deadly force against a trespasser after dark....)


So? If it's my property, and if you did not ask my permission then you have absolutely no right to be on it. It's my land, I pay the taxes and mortgage on it, and you have no right to treat it like your private campground.

Even if you can't see the stealth camper, in principle it is no different than someone sleeping in the vestibule of your apartment building or the front yard of your suburban home.




Seems to me that the "international biking community" are best off knowing that if you get caught stealth camping, there is a good chance you will get chased off immediately and possibly lose some or most of your gear. I'd regard this as useful information.



Care to cite a reference for this?

greenstork

In England, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland and I'm sure a few other European countries they have explicitly spelled out the right to wander in the woods, the freedom to roam, or what is called "Everyman's Right".

To summarize, as long as you're not harming anyone, picking endangered flowers, disturbing residents, etc., you have the right to cross over rural property and camp for a night. The law of course, varies from country to country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_o...the_wilderness
https://www.pinetreedevelopment.net/s...lemansratt.php
https://www.ymparisto.fi/default.asp?...d=49256&lan=EN
https://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/rural-...utdoors-07.htm

sykerocker 

And that I will agree with you completely. This is not necessarily a wondrous, delightful world unless you personally take the pains to make it so. And America is a very different place from Europe - in some ways better, in some ways worse.

I have to admit that a lot of it comes from personal background. I am something of an odd duck - a normal Sunday for me has the morning spent on a bicycle, high point of the morning being coffee at a delightful coffeehouse/folk music venue about 20 miles from my home, which is a huge cyclist hangout in the area. Afternoons and evenings of the same day are often spent in the company of 1%ers, most of whom have been brothers to me for a lot of years.

I tend to care for anyone traveling on two wheels, no matter what the propulsion system. But there's a limit to the behavior I will accept in my fellow man, and my base expectation is that you treat someone else in the exact way that you would want to be treated yourself.

As to the comment of being an embarrassment to the international community I think most Europeans realize that Americans are awfully different as we formed a society from people that originally wanted to get away from Europe - and depending on what region your traveling through, it may seem like you've been through a couple of different countries while still within the national borders. Most rural folk are incredibly helpful, kind and Christian (in the old sense, not the current political), as long they don't feel you're trying to take them for something. Somehow, I get the feeling (which I can't prove, yet, as the term only came to light to me in the past few weeks) that most militant "stealth campers" are probably of urban background. That's the kind of stuff I'd expect from city folk (in best Foghorn Leghorn impression, "That's a joke, I say, that's a joke, son!").

Oh yeah, to close: At the risk of destroying my image of the all-killing Neanderthal the last time I ever actually hit a person, as in a fight, was in the ninth grade. And that includes 18 years flying colors. Fighting's not my style. Defending what's mine, is.

SanDiego

How utterly sad that this individual is so immersed in his arrogance over owning property in the middle of nowhere (Texas) that he is completely UNaware that in civilized areas of the the world, people treat others with respect. I've not specifically been offered hot chocolate, but many WILL buy you a beer and even offer to share a dinner in their home. Obviously some people in Texas and Virginia feel that owning property gives them the right to point guns at people, steal their bike and gear, and buy influence from the local police. They justify their actions (felony and grand theft is the bike value is over a certain value) because the person was 'trespassing' (a low level misdemeaner). That's the kind of nonsense you usually hear from George Bush.

Eddie Loves You

I just think that you have to be reasonable. If you have a lot of land (10 acres!) and (IF) there is no indication that the land is owned (no "no trespassing" signs, far away from any dwellings), it can be reasonably assumed that the camper is not purposefully "stealing" your land from you. He/she probably doesn't know that it's your land, or anyones. This would be the most likely scenario, and brandishing a firearm would definitely be unwarranted.

And stealing his/her stuff?! C'mon man, can't you see the irony in that?

GreenAnvil

Hey folks, I'm buying a car and staying at Holiday Inns.

vik 

Hey if that is the law in your part of the world and you are within your rights to do so - fill your boots.

Personally if it was my property and a touring cyclist setup a tent and intended on sleeping quietly on my property before moving on in the AM I would not threaten them with a deadly weapon and potentially steal their gear. Especially if I would be happy to have them camp right near or in my house.

Not everyone who camps without asking permission is disrespecting the landowner. Perhaps they didn't see the house if the land is heavily wooded. Perhaps they are shy and didn't want to disturb the landowner. Maybe it was late when they arrived and they were bagged so they just wanted to crash.

The sign of someone disrespecting the landowner is a camper who trashes the area he is camping, leaves garbage, makes noise, defies you if you find him and politely ask him to leave. Even in that case I wouldn't pull a weapon on him unless he physically threatened me - I'd just call the police. I'm a ret'd army officer so I'm not against the use of force when appropriate, but not asking permission to camp on a large wooded property isn't one of the situations I'd classify as appropriate for threatening physical violence.

I've camped on people's property several times without asking. I've always left the campsite untouched and in some cases taken garbage with me that was there when I arrived. If I had been discovered and asked to leave I would have. If I was discovered and had a shotgun pointed at me I'd leave - shaking my head at the paranoia and fear that pervades parts of the world.

To each his own I guess. At least you didn't say you'd shoot the no good trespassing touring cyclist while he slept in his tent - we have to be thankful for small mercies.