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Old 08-09-07, 02:41 PM   #1
kipibenkipod
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Dishless back wheel

Hi,
I want to know how can you put a dishless back wheel on a frame.
What would be a requirements for the frame?
Will the rear cassette suffer tiny place?
I have read at Bob Jackson's website at the custom section that if you increase the length of the chainstays, it will allow the dishless wheel.
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Old 08-09-07, 02:56 PM   #2
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A gearhub would be the simplest way to incorporate a non-dished rear wheel. One cog, no dish.
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Old 08-09-07, 02:58 PM   #3
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might work with a 6-7 speed (thread on?) with a large 135mm spacing.
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Old 08-09-07, 03:15 PM   #4
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A gearhub would be the simplest way to incorporate a non-dished rear wheel. One cog, no dish.
Yep, this is an option, but is it a good option? (weight, field repair)
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Old 08-09-07, 03:17 PM   #5
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might work with a 6-7 speed (thread on?) with a large 135mm spacing.
Are the length of the chainstays should increase ? Is it good or bad?
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Old 08-09-07, 03:50 PM   #6
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With standard rear dropout spacing of 135mm, I don't believe you can find a dishless wheel if you plan to use standard drive train (cassette). I believe you can get dishless if you use Rohloff Speedhub or Shimano Nexus internal gear hubs. Another option is to spread the rear dropouts of your frame to 145mm and use a tandem rear wheel. I use a Shimano tandem hub with 48 holes and it is almost dishless. A lengthened chain stay won't affect dish.
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Old 08-09-07, 05:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kipibenkipod View Post
Hi,
I want to know how can you put a dishless back wheel on a frame.
What would be a requirements for the frame?
Will the rear cassette suffer tiny place?
I have read at Bob Jackson's website at the custom section that if you increase the length of the chainstays, it will allow the dishless wheel.
You could get a Co-Motion Americano, which uses a tandem hub in the rear.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:08 PM   #8
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I bought a 145mm Phil Wood tandem cassett hub, which is dishless. I got a screaming deal on it, or I probably wouldn't have done it. Had I known about the tremendous hastle of cold setting the rear triangle to fit in the extra 10mm. I definately wouldn't have done it. Now that it is done, I have a 26" 40 hole dishless rear wheel that should be bombproof.

Tom
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Old 08-09-07, 07:29 PM   #9
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I bought a 145mm Phil Wood tandem cassett hub, which is dishless. I got a screaming deal on it, or I probably wouldn't have done it. Had I known about the tremendous hastle of cold setting the rear triangle to fit in the extra 10mm. I definately wouldn't have done it. Now that it is done, I have a 26" 40 hole dishless rear wheel that should be bombproof.

Tom
If you went with custom frame, would you order a wider rear triangle by default?
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Old 08-09-07, 07:48 PM   #10
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Cold setting to 145 is something you can do, but if you have ever built a frame you know that things often go pop (well in the hands of true masters) with a lot less pressure than that. Good luck with the warrantee. The tandem hubs often end up with less staying angle than a dished 135, they aren't built that way necesarilly to give a stronger wheel as one might expect, but to accomodate drag brakes and discs. Don't buy that? Look into the 165 rear tandem. In my never ending quest to build every stupid touring combo in captivity, I want to put one of those together someday.

You can get dished 135s with same length spokes, front back and port and starboard. There are several weird ways of equalizing the dished wheel loads, spoke gages mixed, butted and non-butted mixed, and radial and non-radial mixed. The 135 system is a strong system, nothing will be gained by beating it up in hope a greater strength. Customizing a frame to go to infinity and beyond is a bit like building an elephant gun; few who own them ever see a target worthy of them.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:54 PM   #11
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"If you went with custom frame, would you order a wider rear triangle by default?"

As mentioned above, but with attribution to Bob Beckman who builds custom adventure touring grade bikes, this doesn't necesarilly add to bike strength, while it totally queers any hope of getting replacement parts in the field. If you want bomber wheels, go 26", high spoke count (keeping in mind that 36 spokes is high spoke count and stock for a 26"), get quality hubs with heat treated axles (Woods, DT, or solid axle if you can fit them, etc...), 135s are shorter and stronger than 145, ballance spoke tension, minimize DT spoke use.
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Old 08-10-07, 10:23 PM   #12
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I have two road bikes with 135 rear hub spacing. I have squandered some Shimano LX rear freehubs, 7 speed hyperglide vintage 1996, FH-M563 36 hole black. These are rather rare, but there are still some floating around. Anyway, these hubs have center to flange spacing that is several mm wider than the newer vintage 8-9-10 speed rear cassette freehubs. That's cause their 7 speed freehub body is not as wide. Mate these to Velocity Synergy asymetric 36 hole 700c wheels and 36 x 291mm 14 ga spokes for a standard 3 cross lacing, and you will get a dishless rear wheel. I just built another of these wheels a couple of weeks ago. Quite rugged, I have never broken a spoke with this setup. I am 6' 1", 187 lbs, and ride a 30 mile RT daily commute year round. I have toured on these also, and used them to ride on lousy roads in third world countries where you really, really don't want to break a spoke. I've used my spoke pressure gauge and I measure almost identical tension on both sides of the wheel.

I have no shortage of useful gears, I use 13-30 or 13-32 seven speed rear cassettes, and 24-36-46 front rings. I've used 8 speed cassettes on other bikes that had the 11 or 12 rear sprockets, but hardly ever used the micro drive sprockets, I was always in the 13, 15 or 17 tooth sprockets. 7 speed cassettes are still pretty widely available, maybe not in stores but plenty on the web.

Peterpan said "minimize DT spoke use"? I've used DT and Wheelsmith, is there a difference for us average riders that are not racing or hauling concrete? We are talking about round stainless steel spokes, straight gauge 14, nothing exotic, right?
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Old 08-10-07, 11:52 PM   #13
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Sorry, me bad, I didn't mean the brand. I haven't enough personal info to be a guide there. I meant butted spokes. Nothing wrong with butted spokes but within the context of super wheels it can be argued that spokes are not likely to spontainiously break whether butted or not, if proper procedures and selection methods are used. Butted spokes are more likely to break where junk gets in the wheels. So I prefer straight spokes, I think the wise view these days is that straight spokes are the better choice for touring wheels, though there are possible exceptions.

Last year I stocked up heavily on 7 speed freewheel gear. Get it while you can.
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Old 08-11-07, 12:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by kipibenkipod View Post
If you went with custom frame, would you order a wider rear triangle by default?

Mine is a custom frame. I built it thinking I would use the wheelset off of my mountain bike. When I started riding my newly built-up bike I also started popping spokes. The old wheels had titanium spokes, about 32 of them I think. I was limping in from somwhere with a broken spoke when I decided to make my perfect touring wheelset. Phil Wood 145 tandem rear hub 40 hole, Hugi tandem front hub 36 hole. Rhyno Lite 26" rims. DT Alpin III spokes, Marathon tires. One fun, yet totally unimportant thing that happened was that all of the spoke lengths are the same! It would have been much easier to make the frame to fit the 145 hub than to cold set it. I never would have thought that moving each side 5mm would have been that big of a deal. I have worked with frames for a long time, but that was a surprise. And yes in deed at one point I was greeted to a loud & sickening pop when a fender bridge between the chainstays broke loose on one side. I had to rebraise and touch up the paint. The only thing that I don't like about my wheelset is the thought that it is very heavy. I don't know how heavy it is, but every part on them is heavier that typical. On the plus side I have about 1800 miles on them and all I've done is add air!

Tom
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