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Old 05-19-08, 02:06 PM   #1
bcody
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restoring vintage touring frame... question

I'm planning on buying and building up an 80's Japanese touring frame. Something like a Nishiki Riviera, or Miyata 610.

I'd like to use newer components where I can, and I know that I may run into problems if I try to install a modern hub. The rear spacing of these frames is something like 124mm whereas the modern hubs I'm looking at are around 136mm. I'd be fine with doing the cold setting (bending chainstays), but I'd like to explore other options as well.

What do you think about using a new Suntour GPX 7 spd 126mm OLN (36 hole) hub? I don't know what type of bike this hub is meant for. Would it work for loaded touring? Here's more info on the hub.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD

Also, if anyone has any further advice about other problems I might run into trying to install newer components on a vintage frame, please let me know.
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Old 05-19-08, 02:27 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by bcody View Post
I'm planning on buying and building up an 80's Japanese touring frame. Something like a Nishiki Riviera, or Miyata 610.

I'd like to use newer components where I can, and I know that I may run into problems if I try to install a modern hub. The rear spacing of these frames is something like 124mm whereas the modern hubs I'm looking at are around 136mm. I'd be fine with doing the cold setting (bending chainstays), but I'd like to explore other options as well.

What do you think about using a new Suntour GPX 7 spd 126mm OLN (36 hole) hub? I don't know what type of bike this hub is meant for. Would it work for loaded touring? Here's more info on the hub.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD

Also, if anyone has any further advice about other problems I might run into trying to install newer components on a vintage frame, please let me know.
Don't. Unless you have a bucket full of old GPX cassettes, you'll be stuck with something you can't get parts for. You'd even be better off with a freewheel than the GPX.

Go with a 36 hole Shimano 105 hub. It's easy to spread the rear triangle from 126 to 130. 8 or 9 spd cassette will work fine.
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Old 05-19-08, 04:56 PM   #3
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If you want to avoid coldsetting, I'd recommend using a 126mm rear freewheel hub. You can get nice new IRD freewheels with a 32t large cog in 6 or 7 speed -- pair that with some indexed DT shifters on Rivendell barend shifter pods and you've got yerself a nice setup. This is exactly what I'm going to do with my recently-acquired Specialized Expedition. Some will say that cassettes are less prone to failure than freewheels, and they may be right, but I believe the odds of either style failing are very low and wouldn't hesitate to do self-supported long-distance touring on the setup I just described.

Otherwise, just get a new rear hub and coldset the frame.
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Old 05-19-08, 07:08 PM   #4
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I cold set my frame from 135 to 145. I thought that moving each side 5mm would be no problem. It was a tremendous struggle. At one point the braze on the chainstay bridge broke with a big bang. Some fun. I also managed to put a slight, but stylish kink in the seat stays. I guess my point is, few things are as simple as they sound.
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Old 05-19-08, 07:37 PM   #5
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Well, I've restored two bicycles to riding condition. My current one is a 1985 Univega viva Touring.

Some thoughts that I have about the whole process:

1) If you doubt it or think it might need replaced, replace it, especially wheels.

2) When replacing parts, only go for things that are still in production or will remain in production for some time. When I had to get a new freewheel for my Vega, I spent about two months trying to find a NOS (New Old Stock) 14-34 Suntour freewheel...That didn't happen.

3) Avoid Cold setting the frame. As the last poster shows, cold setting can potentially make the frame unrideable. If it must be cold set, I advise letting a pro mechanic with frame alignment tools do it. Also, some frames can't have it done to them period, which is another reason to let a pro mechanic look at the frame. My Vega has lugged chainstays, and all my research shows that Lugged frames can't be cold set without damaging the lug. Also, keep the change small, 5-6 mm appears to be the limit for most required cold settings.

Good luck,

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Old 05-19-08, 08:07 PM   #6
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2) When replacing parts, only go for things that are still in production or will remain in production for some time. When I had to get a new freewheel for my Vega, I spent about two months trying to find a NOS (New Old Stock) 14-34 Suntour freewheel...That didn't happen.
As I'm not sure I made it clear in my last post, the IRD freewheels w/a 32t large cog are still in production and are available from reputable online retailers like Rivendell and Harris Cyclery. However, your point about the search for NOS parts is well taken, especially if you're not somebody for whom the thrill of the chase makes it worthwhile. I know I'm not.

Quote:
3) Avoid Cold setting the frame. As the last poster shows, cold setting can potentially make the frame unrideable. If it must be cold set, I advise letting a pro mechanic with frame alignment tools do it. Also, some frames can't have it done to them period, which is another reason to let a pro mechanic look at the frame. My Vega has lugged chainstays, and all my research shows that Lugged frames can't be cold set without damaging the lug. Also, keep the change small, 5-6 mm appears to be the limit for most required cold settings.
Do you mean the chainstays are brazed into a bottom bracket lug? If this is what you're talking about, you've received some misinformation (and my apologies if you mean something else that I don't understand). I've coldset a lugged frame from 126mm to 130mm with no problems, and many other posters on the Classic & Vintage board have done the same, as well as going from 126mm to 135mm in some cases. I'd agree with you about the frame alignment tools. I'm no pro mechanic, but I did it at my local bike coop and used their alignment tools and they were very handy. At the very least I'd recommend a set of candlesticks to make sure the dropouts are parallel.
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Old 05-19-08, 09:15 PM   #7
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Here are some pics of my 1985 Nishiki Continental, I restored it completely this winter.
I used a 7 speed 126mm Suntour free wheel and 105 hubs and Mavic T221 rims.
Works very nicely. But these are all period parts and they work very well.
There was nothing wrong with these parts back then and really all that is missing is some in between gears that I don't really notice.
Good luck with your resto!


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Old 05-19-08, 11:08 PM   #8
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I have a Miyata 1000 that I had spread from 126 to 130 and it now has a new Shimano cassette. I still use the old Suntour derailleur, and it shifts about a billion times better than the old freewheel. No indexing, but smooth shifting with Silver barcons is pretty great.
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Old 05-19-08, 11:19 PM   #9
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As I'm not sure I made it clear in my last post, the IRD freewheels w/a 32t large cog are still in production and are available from reputable online retailers like Rivendell and Harris Cyclery. However, your point about the search for NOS parts is well taken, especially if you're not somebody for whom the thrill of the chase makes it worthwhile. I know I'm not.
Sorry, didn't catch the details about the IRD freewheels, and I congratulate you on finding them. It was an utterly futile search for me.


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Do you mean the chainstays are brazed into a bottom bracket lug? If this is what you're talking about, you've received some misinformation (and my apologies if you mean something else that I don't understand). I've coldset a lugged frame from 126mm to 130mm with no problems, and many other posters on the Classic & Vintage board have done the same, as well as going from 126mm to 135mm in some cases. I'd agree with you about the frame alignment tools. I'm no pro mechanic, but I did it at my local bike coop and used their alignment tools and they were very handy. At the very least I'd recommend a set of candlesticks to make sure the dropouts are parallel.
To make sure we are on the same page, I looked up brazing and lug in Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary. I said what I said correctly. I guess my level of conservatism has shown again. Refering back to Sheldon Brown's work "Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing", it would appear that I might have been off with my statement. Sheldon clearly states that only steel frames can be safely cold set, and I would agree with him on that point. I wish I knew where I got the idea that Lugged frames could not be cold set, but I don't have the time or the energy to look for it tonight.

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Old 05-19-08, 11:37 PM   #10
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Go with a 36 hole Shimano 105 hub. It's easy to spread the rear triangle from 126 to 130. 8 or 9 spd cassette will work fine.
Good advice! Most 80's tourers were spaced at 126mm. Spreading to 130 is no big deal...from my experience, they pop right in with little effort and no cold setting. I've done this with a couple of touring bikes. 700c rims--instead of the stock 27"--work great too with a simple adjustment of the cantilever brake pads.

I was thinking at first of going with a 135mm "mountain bike" hub--mainly because those wheelsets are so plentiful and cheap--but didn't want to go through the hassle of cold setting. If you're going to buy a pre-built wheelset with 105/Ultegra and 36 spoke touring rims like Mavic 719's...they're available if you look around a bit.

FWIW, if you go with a 7 speed casssete instead of an 8/9 speed, you'll need a small spacer.
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Old 05-19-08, 11:53 PM   #11
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700c rims--instead of the stock 27"--work great too with a simple adjustment of the cantilever brake pads.
This is true in many cases, but not always. It'd be worth your time to do some internet research about any bike you're thinking about buying. The Classic & Vintage board is a great place to ask that question, as many of the members have restored/upgraded vintage tourers and may be able to save you the frustration of being 1mm short of being able to brake w/700c wheels.
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Old 05-20-08, 08:41 AM   #12
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Thanks for all of the input -- it's been really helpful.

The frame I'll be using is a Nishiki Riviera GT.

Here's another question. I've never installed a bottom bracket before, and I don't know what size/type my frame will take. Am I likely to run into any compatability problems installing a modern BB? I was thinking something like a Shimano UN53.

What do you guys think?
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Old 05-20-08, 08:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingcadet View Post
Well, I've restored two bicycles to riding condition. My current one is a 1985 Univega viva Touring.

Some thoughts that I have about the whole process:

1) If you doubt it or think it might need replaced, replace it, especially wheels.

2) When replacing parts, only go for things that are still in production or will remain in production for some time. When I had to get a new freewheel for my Vega, I spent about two months trying to find a NOS (New Old Stock) 14-34 Suntour freewheel...That didn't happen.

3) Avoid Cold setting the frame. As the last poster shows, cold setting can potentially make the frame unrideable. If it must be cold set, I advise letting a pro mechanic with frame alignment tools do it. Also, some frames can't have it done to them period, which is another reason to let a pro mechanic look at the frame. My Vega has lugged chainstays, and all my research shows that Lugged frames can't be cold set without damaging the lug. Also, keep the change small, 5-6 mm appears to be the limit for most required cold settings.

Good luck,

flyingcadet
Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about cold setting the frame. Going from 126 to 130mm is a very tiny amount. There's enough spring in the rear triangle to do it by hand without coldsetting. Most modern frames are set up at 132.5mm so you can use 130mm or 135mm hubs.
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New! Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
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Old 05-20-08, 09:09 AM   #14
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I restored a 1983 miyata 610. Here's my thread: New bike + questions

It ended up working out fine, but I have to say BEWARE of hidden costs. Really only do this if you badly want to have the vintage vibe, but not if you want to save money. With the cost of a new surly LHT being what it is now, it's hard to justify buying anything else.

FYI - I ended up selling my miyata and buying a used 2007 cannondale t2000 for not much more than the cost of restoring the 610. I still sometimes miss the 610, truth be told. I'm a tall guy and I liked the shorter top tube of the vintage bikes for all-day comfort.
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Old 05-20-08, 09:19 AM   #15
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I do agree that cold setting from 126 to 130 is not a requirement in general. But there can be some problems. One of my bikes would only spread the one side, causing the wheel to be off centered. Your drop outs won't be parallel . This is not a problem going from 126 to 130, because the angle is not that great. You are not likely to break a hub. But, with the extra demands due to touring, I would cold set the stays and have the frame aligned.
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