Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    PVC in Ortlieb Panniers?

    I love my Carradice "Super C" panniers. They're made of canvas and I don't think they contain a bit of PVC, also known as "the toxic plastic". I've been through quite a few storms with them and they've never leaked. I'm told Ortlieb panniers do contain PVC, and I'm now being asked by a group of Spaniards I sometimes cycle with which brand they ought to choose.

    Am I right in telling them to avoid Ortlieb panniers or do they offer a non-PVC version?

    Thanks for your help.

  2. #2
    cyclopath vik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Victoria, BC
    My Bikes
    Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad
    Posts
    5,236
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ortlieb's "plus" fabric is made without any PVC.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

  3. #3
    Thread Killer evblazer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Marfan Syndrome-Clyde-DFW, TX
    My Bikes
    Fuji Touring Xtracycle, Merlin Road, Bacchetta Giro 26 (Sold), Challenge Hurricane, Cruzbike Sofrider
    Posts
    1,844
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you go online or look at the tags in person there is a little square with the letters PVC with an X through the ones without PVC.
    Which apparantly the ones I purchased on sale do not have (back roller classics). They even have a spiffy green greenpeace version of the plus that is without pvc.

  4. #4
    GATC
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    south Puget Sound
    Posts
    6,609
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ben Stein says PVC is good for you.

  5. #5
    Prairie Path Commuter
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Forest Park, IL
    My Bikes
    Marin Palisades Trail
    Posts
    654
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    PVC, also known as "the toxic plastic".
    This is not the place to argue about stuff like this but as a chemist and with all due respect I would like to present a counter point: The above assertion by Green Peace is wrong, at lease for the end user, and is not based on sound science, fact, or reality. It is based on a faulty premise that anything containing chlorine is bad and very weak science suggesting phthalate plasticizers are bad. PVC when improperly incinerated can create dioxins but that is a more general waste disposal issue. There are resources to back this up although I doubt most people are interested.

    [edit] I should add that in general Green Peace’s intentions are good and I do not know why they make such unsubstantiated claims as it only hurts their credibility. Although, I strongly suspect that it is an organization that is driven by people who are more grounded in rhetoric than in science.

    I respect people's right to believe what they want to believe and I am not interested in arguing conspiracy theories. Just wanted to point this out.
    Last edited by robmcl; 05-21-08 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also, if PVC were so "toxic" why would it be used in so many buildings to carry drinking water?

  7. #7
    Senior Member thePig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    London but shortly Sydney
    My Bikes
    Bianchi Road Bike & Gary Fisher Mountain Bike
    Posts
    103
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have a set of carradice super c's also and they are absolutely brilliant.
    I have just bought an ortlieb classic handlebar bag and now you have me all paranoid that it is made of some suspicioius stuff :-)
    www.cyclepig.com - discover the world on two wheels

  8. #8
    Call me The Breeze I_bRAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Corbyville Ontario
    My Bikes
    2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.
    Posts
    3,699
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by robmcl View Post
    It is based on a faulty premise that anything containing chlorine is bad
    I am NOT a chemist, but I'd say it would be very very hard to completely eliminate chlorine from your daily life.

  9. #9
    Senior Member climbhoser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Parker, CO
    My Bikes
    SS Surly Crosscheck; '91 Cannondale 3.0
    Posts
    1,657
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    View my blog: climbhoser.blogspot.com

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Frankfort, Il
    My Bikes
    Surly LHT
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

  11. #11
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    5,718
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Greenpeace stamp in Ortliebs is more than just the material. From Ortlieb's site:

    Raw materials and manufacturing processes of the Greenpeace line fulfill the ecologically optimised “bluesign” criteria which guarantee the use of “clean” components and low consumption of energy resources during the production process.
    So, if PVC is your concern and you're interested in Ortliebs, any pannier with the Plus fabric will do. If your concern is more broadly ecological issues in general, consider the Ortlieb Greenpeace. If you're really serious about ecological issues, making your own set of panniers will give you the maximum control over materials, manufacturing process and logistics involved.

    --J
    To err is human. To moo is bovine.

    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


    Become a Registered Member in Bike Forums
    Community guidelines

  12. #12
    Senior Member cycotourer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Grafton NSW Australia
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    I love my Carradice "Super C" panniers. They're made of canvas and I don't think they contain a bit of PVC, also known as "the toxic plastic".
    Thanks for your help.
    The other side of the coin is that canvas is usually made of cotton and cotton cropping is repsonsible for shocking environmental degradation due to the high use of chemical pesticides and the need for vast quantities of water. Australia's river of shame, the Darling, is virtually dry due to large scale water harvesting for cotton crops in the headwaters of this river.

    The Aral sea in central Asia is down to 10% of its size (and very badly polluted) as the rivers that feed it have stopped running into it ... one of the crops irrigated from these rivers .... cotton. I don't know how bad PVC is, but cotton cropping is an environmental disaster.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cycotourer View Post
    The other side of the coin is that canvas is usually made of cotton and cotton cropping is repsonsible for shocking environmental degradation due to the high use of chemical pesticides and the need for vast quantities of water. Australia's river of shame, the Darling, is virtually dry due to large scale water harvesting for cotton crops in the headwaters of this river.

    The Aral sea in central Asia is down to 10% of its size (and very badly polluted) as the rivers that feed it have stopped running into it ... one of the crops irrigated from these rivers .... cotton. I don't know how bad PVC is, but cotton cropping is an environmental disaster.
    Too bad there aren't any hemp panniers on the market.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    My Bikes
    IF steel deluxe 29er tourer
    Posts
    1,426
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If one resists the use of PVC in your panniers, one should also avoid lubricants for your chain, the use of paint for one's bike, the use of rubber for one's tires etc. Feel happy that you are not using gasoline during your vacation!

  15. #15
    Senior Member BigBlueToe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Central Coast, CA
    My Bikes
    Surly LHT, Specialized Rockhopper, Nashbar Touring (old), Specialized Stumpjumper (older), Nishiki Tourer (model unknown)
    Posts
    3,388
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by robmcl View Post
    This is not the place to argue about stuff like this but as a chemist and with all due respect I would like to present a counter point: The above assertion by Green Peace is wrong, at lease for the end user, and is not based on sound science, fact, or reality. It is based on a faulty premise that anything containing chlorine is bad and very weak science suggesting phthalate plasticizers are bad. PVC when improperly incinerated can create dioxins but that is a more general waste disposal issue. There are resources to back this up although I doubt most people are interested.

    [edit] I should add that in general Green Peace’s intentions are good and I do not know why they make such unsubstantiated claims as it only hurts their credibility. Although, I strongly suspect that it is an organization that is driven by people who are more grounded in rhetoric than in science.

    I respect people's right to believe what they want to believe and I am not interested in arguing conspiracy theories. Just wanted to point this out.
    Thank you. It's too late for me - I already bought a set of Ortlieb Classics. Your post makes me feel better about it.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montréal, QC (Canada)
    My Bikes
    2008 Surly LHT complete & 1988-ish fuglyfixed Specialized RockHopper
    Posts
    409
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pvcrisp View Post
    Also, if PVC were so "toxic" why would it be used in so many buildings to carry drinking water?
    PVC is used in a lot of constructions, but at least around here, and probably a lot of places as well, only in sewage pipes. I don't think thay make PVC drinking water pipes anymore (been replaced with CPVC I believe).

    I have no idea how PVC is toxic, I am not a chemist. I've heard that it's relatively safe, but it's environmentally bad because it's not recyclable and takes virtually forever to break down into simpler chemical components in landfills.

    This said, we cannot assert a product is safe because it is widespread. The past has proven this argument to be wrong many times; even recently, Health Canada moved to ban Bisphenol-A containers from being used as "baby drinking bottles" (sorry, forgot the actual word for those) because they can be hazardous, and yet they were very widespread.

    All things considered, even if PVC is bad for the environment, I believe that the quantity released to the environment through bike panniers is minimal compared to the quantity used by the construction industry. This said, there exists other materials, as good and efficient as PVC for use in bike panniers, and these should be used instead, but I don't think that buying PVC panniers makes you a devil or bad person, because of the relatively small quantity of present in PVC bike panniers and when you consider the long product life of Bike Panniers. You will use them many years. It's not a good excuse, but it can make you feel better if you have those PVC panniers Do you think the plumbers lose a lot of sleep after outfitting a 10 story building with tons of PVC pipes?

    My 0.02 cents.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •