mesasone

Seems to be a sudden influx of new tourers getting ready for their first tour all of a sudden, and I thought I would stop lurking and jump in myself. I am currently trying to plan a tour for this winter, out to the Grand Canyon area. At work we get December 24th through January 2nd off as a paid holiday. I am planning on taking an additional week off in January for this trip, so I will have through the 11th off. I would like to leave on the 27th of December. This is more or less the sum total of the planning I have completed!

My current intentions are to fly into Vegas on the 27th, ride out on the 28th, finish up in Phoenix on the 9th or so and fly out of Phoenix on the 11th. I have chosen these dates due to non-stop flight availability and prices. Originally I wanted to fly in to Phoenix as I have family there I could stay with and ship my gear to, however flight availability makes this impractical, so I will end there instead.

Beyond this, I have figured out very little. Using the default google maps route Vegas to Grand Canyon National Park to Phoenix is 510 miles by car, so very doable. However, this looked to include some freeways, etc that not only do I not want to ride on, but I may not be able to even legally ride on.

So, I come to you with many questions. I need resources for planning my route (maps, trails to look into, etc), and route suggestions if available. I would like to get a bit off the beaten path and mostly visit small towns. Also, I am a photographer, and photography will be an important part of my trip, so I would like to make accommodations in my route for that. I was in AZ out in Sedona and the Grand Canyon some years ago, and I remember it being absolutely beautiful, so I suspect this will not be an issue.

Also, what kind of climate will be I facing? I imagine the temperatures will be quite bearable during the day, however how cold will it get during the night? The only gear I currently own is my bike (Surly LHT) and camera (Canon 40D), so I have a lot of purchasing to do. I do not have a hard budget, but am trying to keep it to under $1000 USD... this includes airfare and buying all gear, plus food while on the trip, etc.

Currently, I am considering purchasing the following:

Eureka Solo Backcountry 1 Tent
Therm-a-Rest ProLite 4
Trangia 27-5

I am most concerned about finding the right sleeping bag, as from what I can tell I could be facing a lot of variation in the weather depending on the route. I would prefer to get a lighter weight, cheaper sleeping bag as I do not intend to do much camping in these cold climates. My thought is that I could take a warm fleece blanket and put it in the bag with me. Also, what is the viability of using a Mylar emergency blanket as a sleeping bag liner?

I know I have asked many questions, and I have many more, however it is now past 4am and I really need to get to bed.

JohnyW

Hi

Climate: Cold - I saw many nice pictures of the Grand Canyon with snow. In September we had 8°C (don't know that's that in Fahrenheit) in the night. I would prefer Florida / San Diego / Mexiko during this period...

Thomas

jamawani 

The reason the Grand Canyon is grand is that it is way up there - i.e. high elevation. The South Rim is nearly 7000 ft. The North Rim nearly 8000 ft., but closed in winter.

Here is the Western Regional Climate Center's data for the Grand Canyon:
https://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?az3596

On January 1 the average high is 43, the average low is 17.
And them's is averagages. It can be MUCH colder and snowy, too.
For Des Moines the December averages are 33/17.
So it gets a little warmer in the daytime, but gets as cold at night.

I would strongly suggest something else.
I'm not 100% sure, but you imply that this is your first tour.
A first tour in the winter is not to be trifled with.
You are very exposed. Camping is often limited.

I would suggest a tour of Death Valley, Mojave National Preserve, and Joshua Tree.
This way you could fly into Vegas, ride to Palm Springs,
ship your bike from a bike shop in Palm Springs,
and catch Amtrak or Greyhound (?) to Phoenix.
Or you can skip Joshua Tree and ride to Phoenix thru Parker.

These three national parks and preserves are lovely.
No, they aren't the Grand Canyon - but are excellent cycling choices for winter.
Death Valley - 66/39
Mojave - 63/35
Joshua Tree - 63/36
Although it is significantly colder in higher elevations.

I'll be glad to offer any help Ican.

J

staehpj1

+1
The fact that you (the OP) don't seem to own camping gear also makes me wonder if you have much previous camping experience. If you don't (or even if you do) please be extra cautious with regard to cold weather camping.

cyccommute 

I'd suggest the Big Agnes Seedhouse 1 over the Eureka. Nothing wrong with the Eureka but feeding the poles through sleeves gets old very fast. The Seedhouse also has a better cover over the door.

I'd also suggest the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core pad over the Thermorest. It's not self inflating but it is thicker and packs much smaller for less money. Look at Big Agnes bags while you are at it. Very nice with lots of features.

Camel

The seedhouse sounds nice.

If your interested in Eureka tents, check out a Zeuse classic. It's single wall-great for cooler/cold temps. Venting in warmer/humid climbs can be tricky, but not a major problem. The 2 poles use clips rather than sleeves. It's pretty darned light weight, freestanding & packs small. I sold mine on tour rather than shipping it home-I'll be buying another.

BigBlueToe

I have a Eureka Backcountry 1. It's very long, so if you're tall, it might be a good bet. The thing I don't like about it is how narrow it is. I discovered I couldn't lay on my side and read a book. That might seem like no big deal, but reading in my sleeping bag in my tent is very important to me. Without a comfortable chair on a bike trip, I'm left sitting at the picnic table. That gets old fast. So when I get to camp, I often spend the time lying down, reading, and if there are mosquitoes I have to do it in my tent. Plus, I go to bed early virtually every night and read until I fall asleep.

I got a Microlight 2 from L. L. Bean. I love it. It's got an 8-foot floor so it's long enough for us tall guys. It's wide enough to read, and there's room beside me for spare clothes, my shoes, etc. The tent is all bug mesh, so it's nice to hide out from bugs when it's a little warm - good ventilation. The fly completely covers it so it doesn't leak, and it's light enough to justify taking on a bike trip. Plus it's relatively cheap - only $129. The one bad thing - it's not freestanding.

I second what cyccommute said about the Big Agnes Air Core pad. I love mine! I have back problems, and the Air Core is much more comfortable than a Thermarest. A full-length one is as light as a 3/4 length Thermarest, and it packs smaller. So far I've taken it on two summer tours with no leakage. The downside is that you have to blow it up, but I timed myself and it only takes me 2 minutes. I don't consider that a big deal. I don't think I'll ever go back to Thermarests (which I used for 15 years and heartily endorsed.)

blaise_f

A winter trip through Northern AZ can be harsh, even under assisted camping / travel. I don't want to set you off on your trip though. Northern AZ is unlike most places I've ever been, and being a photog myself, you will have countless (probably more than you want) photo opps. I planned a similar trip as well, and it's difficult being able to go where you want to. AZ roads are few and far between in the central region. It is legal to bike on parts of I17; it's even marked as so. My issue with that tour was actually finding a viable route to make my way through Indian Gardens, Sedona and Cottonwood, but still make it back to Phoenix as a way point. Your best bet if you want no interstate is to take 260 through Cottonwood and Pine, to 87 and that into Phoenix. I don't know what you want to hit besides Sedona, but I through together a rough idea. I'm from Phoenix, have camped/traveled/hunted a ton throughout all of AZ, own a 40D and an LHT - lots in common there .

North Rim to Phoenix Via 260 and 87 (not through Cottonwood).

~276 miles depending on many different things. You can tack on less than 10 miles and go through Cottonwood, which I would suggest. That area is amazing (I did my Boy Scout Eagle project at the campground / national marshland there). Jerome is simply amazing too, it's a damn shame it's so out of the way. There's not many cities more neat than Jerome (very old mining town, although that would be one hell of a trek on a bike - winding roads and many mountains!).

Edit: You're going to need oodles of camping gear and preparation. You're going to want a stout tent, a warm mummy bag and many other things. Reiterating what others said here, there's a *ton* of elevation you'll be dealing with. Even a camp stove will need to be rated for that - check before splurge buying. Also, remember there are many creatures in that part of the state - many bears. Prepare yourself, lots; you'll need it.

Joe Gardner

I have never been comfortable in a 1 man tent. I need the extra wiggle room of a two man tent, even when camping solo.

I'm taking a full size base camp thermarest on my GDT tour, getting a good nights sleep is one thing I can't do without.

Newspaperguy

Your distances look realistic, but a winter trip has got a lot of unique issues, even more if it's your first trip. You're planning a route through some fairly empty and rugged country at a time of year when conditions can get harsh. If you're not prepared in case of an accident or a mechanical breakdown or a freak storm or cold snap, you could die.

Since this your first trip and since you don't seem to have a lot of experience with camping, I'll join those who suggest you find a much warmer area for a winter trip. You also may want to check your route to make sure there are towns or settlements at close intervals along the way. This will give you a lot of peace of mind as you can get help or supplies if you need.

Your first trip is a new undertaking and it will introduce you to a new world. Start easy and enjoy the experience. Before you finish your trip, you'll be planning the next one and it will just grow from there.

rodar y rodar

Yup, it gets plenty cold around there in the winter. Jamawami`s other locations sound like great options. If your heart is set on the Grand Canyon, it still may be doable by staying in a lodge or hotel and doing day trips. You`d still need suitable clothes and a way to pack several layers around with you, but you wouldn`t need to worry about cooking, sleeping, setting up and breaking down out in the weather.

zonatandem

Got knobby tires? Got 'real' winter gear? You need reality check for winter bicycling in northern AZ!
Have ridden from the Grand Canyon (South Rim) to Nogales, Mexico 5 times . . . in late September/very early October. Not too hot, not too cold . . . but temps varied from 28 degrees and frost on the bike seat in Flagstaff and Mormon Lake campground to 100 degrees 4 days later in Tucson area. Also 20,000+ feet of climbing; no it's not all downhill!
Have also ridden the North Rim from Jacobs Lake (no lake there) to the North Rim visitor's center and back over Memorial Day weekend; snow still on the ground in the shady spots but temps were a great near-70 degrees mid-day. Fabulous!
December riding by the Grand Canyon? Forget it! . . . unless you are a real masochist. There are no 7-11s and convenience stores on the route and the closests bike shops are in Flagstaff . . . don't depend upon AAA to bail you out as cellphone coverage is sketchy! North Rim is closed, as stated above.
Been snowed in at Sedona over Valentine's Day . . . snowmobiles only.
Suggest you fly to Phoenix and pedal down south to Tucson (125 miles) and maybe on down to the Mexican border another 80-some miles. Much warmer and less likely of inclement weather.
Lots of photo ops along the way including giant saguaros, old missions (San Xavier, Tumacacori), national parks, Kitt Peak Observatory (elev. 8,000 ft) or Mt.Lemmon (elev. 9,000+ ft and possible snow) etc.
Only our observations . . . we've lived/bicycled here for 30+ years.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

mesasone

Arg! I had a post going, but then I restarted my browser to try to fix Google maps, but accidentally left my "downloads" window open and lost all my tabs! And Google maps is still not working properly to boot! How typical.

Anyhow, I appriecate the feedback and suggestions so far. As I said I had done very little planning so far, and am finding the input invaluable. Based on your suggestions, I am going to scrap the AZ/Grand Canyon route and work on something else.

I had been spending the past few days working on this route (maybe somebody else will be interested in it), visiting Death Valley and Joshua Tree, but skipping the Mojave as it was just too far out of my way for my time constraints. I could then take a bus from Palm Springs to Phoenix as jamawani suggested, and then fly out of Phoenix on the 11th. However, after further thought I've decided that perhaps I should skip Joshua Tree as well and just do the Death Valley National Park - that place is huge and there should be plenty to do on and off bike. Then I can just ride back to Vegas and fly out on the 8th - this also gives me a few days at home before returning to work on the 12th.

Cyccocommute: Thanks for the suggestions on the gear. I think I am going to pass on the Big Agnes pad as it basically looks like an air mattress, and personally I hate sleeping on the things. It's price and compactness is nice, but I think I will go with the thermarest (pending any other suggestions). I will however give the Seedhouse further consideration. It's a bit more than I was planning on spending, but perhaps I can find an REI coupon to bring the price down a bit.

EDIT: You can get the Seedhouse 1 on REI-Outlet for $149, and using coupon code "OUTLET88" you can save an additional 20% ($30) bringing it down to 120... not bad at all. Might have to jump on that. The coupon is only good through August 14th, so not much time to think about it.

mesasone

Okay, I ordered the tent last week and it is scheduled to arrive on Thursday. I have continued to look at sleeping bags and pads, and have narrowed it down to two pads and two bags. Input would be appreciated.

For the pad, I think I have narrowed it down to these pads:

Big Agnes Hinman
Big Agnes Insulated Aircore

I'm not really sold on the Aircore. It's compact, light, and lots of people seem to sing it's praises but I am still weary of these air mattress type pads. Of course the Hinman is also an air pad, but it's flat and has a layer of foam that makes me think it would be more comfortable. It's also rated 20 degrees warmer (-5 versus 15) and nearly 40% (30$) cheaper, but 18 oz heavier. There seem to be few reviews of the Hinman, and the good in-depth reviews I did find were for a 2.5" version while what I am looking at is 1.5". I am not terribly concerned about compactness as this will likely end up on top of my rack along side my sleeping bag and tent, so eh.


For sleeping bags, I have been looking at two Big Agnes bags on REI. I have also narrowed the selection here down to two:

Big Agnes Gold Creek +20
Big Agnes Encampment +15

For the sleeping bags, I am leaning towards the Encampment. It is lighter(3lbs 5oz vs 4lbs 10oz) and a bit warmer. It is also more expensive, however with a 15% off coupon it comes down to 127.95 (the coupon does not apply to the outlet). I guess my question here is whether or not 21 ounces (and 5 degrees) is worth 40 dollars when you are touring by bike (versus something like backpacking where it would be a no brainer).

Opinions please?

mwl6464

Here's a Big Agnes Seedhouse 2 tent for $116.

https://www.manventureoutpost.com/out...=shopping_cart

Wow, just notice the big jump up in price on the SL model. Is it worth the extra cash?

jamawani 

Not sure how much experience you have with remote areas.
Looked at your route.
Almost any road out of Vegas will be busy.
Hwy 160 to Pahrump has a lot of bedroom commuter traffic.
Inbound in the a.m., outbound in the p.m.

May I suggest heading up Hwy 160 to US 95 and then to Beatty (hostel)?
Then down into Death Valley.
The route you have out of Death Valley is sorta O.K.
But US 395 is quite busy and CA 58 very busy.
Also scenery is only so-so.

The reason I send you up to Beatty is so that you can cut south thru Death Valley
Then take CA 127 thru Tecopa Hot Springs all the way to I-15 at Baker
The paved road thru Mojave National Preserve goes thru Kelso to Amboy.
Amboy is a near ghost town on old Route 66.
Then cut down to Twentynine Palms and Joshua Tree.

This is a remote route and you need to be able to handle 60 miles between services.

quester

I'm a big guy, sleep on my side, have some back problems, and was worried that I was past the whole "sleeping on dirt" thing. However, the aircore is incredibly comfortable, though there's no way I can match the 2 minute time above with my my 25" long pad.

I also have a big agnes bag: the buffalo park. Once you've used a bag that has a sleeve for the pad (no more rolling off in the middle of the night!) you really won't want to use anything else.

mesasone

If you order anything from them, let me know if it actually shows up...

IntoThickAir

Dear Mesasone,

Glad to see that you abandoned the Grand Canyon for New Year's - you would have froze. As for your new route, sticking to Death Valley, I've pedaled a good deal of it, and can offer the following advice:

From Vegas, you can leave in mid-afternoon on your second day, and camp out near/in Red Rock National Conservation Area (camping is illegal within the park, so leave no trace of your presence if you spend the evening). The next day you can get an early start on 160 to Pahrump - everyone will be heading into Vegas in the morn, not out. In 2001 there was a quick-mart at the jct of 159 and 160 Blue Diamond, and a small cafe at the summit of Mountain Springs - that's it for the ride to Pahrump.

A bit north of Pahrump is the turnoff west onto Bell Vista Ave/Bob Rudd Memorial Highway - the short cut to Death Valley Junction. There's a bar shortly after you turnoff 160, then nothing until Death Valley Jct, where you'll find at least water. Whether or not there's food depends on the schedule of the folks that run the local Amagosa Opera House, which you should definitely check out (and maybe even take in a show).

Heading west on 190, there no food or water until you reach Furnace Creek. I took a detour to Dante's View, a major climb with a big reward. At Furnace Creek you'll find a lovely old hotel, the park visitor center, a campground, and everything else.

You could take a day ride north to check out the dune fields, return to Furnace Creek, then head south the next day to Badwater, lowest point in North America. No food or water, however, until you're well south, all the way to Shoshone/Tecopa. I never did visit these places, so you'll have to find out in Death Valley whether or not they offer food.

From there you can either return to Vegas via Pahrump, or ride down to Baker and hitch/catch a bus back to Vegas. However, if you've got the time, I'd recommend pushing south in the Mohave National Preserve - it's gorgeous, with big dunes and lavas and mountains. Once you reach I-40 you can hitch east to Flagstaff, or ride (look for the little roads via Essex which will allow you to mostly miss the interstate) to Needles, Lake Havasu City, Parker, Salome, Wickenburg....all the way to Phoenix, as you orginally hoped.

There will be lots of tourists, so if you run out of water you ain't gonna die - just beg.

If you'd like to read about my ride to Death Valley, it's the last chapter in my Sierra Club book, Into Thick Air. Then hit the road. You're going to like it, I reckon - but like the other forum folk have pointed out, it will get cold at night. Get a headlamp and a good book, too, because the sun is down for 14 hours.

Yours,
Jim Malusa

mesasone

Jim, and others, thank you for the input. I have been giving your suggestions consideration and am making further changes to my route. I will stay clear of 95 as several of you suggested. I was including it in my ride because it had two decent sized towns (Indian Springs and Beatty) that I could stop over in, and ride light the first few days and stock up on food stuffs in Beatty before departing for Death Valley proper.

Based on your suggestions, and pending further review, here is the route(s) that I currently have mapped out:

(a): https://tinyurl.com/6bj45y
(b): https://tinyurl.com/5rpoef

Route A is my primary route, and is just Death Valley National Park and clocks in at about 450 miles. Route B departs for the Mojave desert from Shoshone and adds about 70 miles. I could cut out quite a few miles if I skip Shoshone and ride further south out of Death Valley, however I would have to decide if I had the inclination to do the Mojave earlier in the trip.

I am still researching and buying gear. Currently, I just have the tent (Seedhouse 1), this week I will be ordering the sleeping bag and pad (BA Encampment +15 and Aircore). For panniers, I am looking at Axiom Champlains in the rear and Lasalle up front. For racks, I am currently looking at Old Man Mountain AC Lowrider up front, and White Rock (40 lbs) in back, or possibly a Red Rock (60 lbs).

I am curious, would it make sense for me to stop at a walmart or some such, purchase food items and ship "care packages" to myself at destinations along the trail? There is a post office in Furnace Creek and Shoshone, although I was considering sending a package to the ranger station in Stovepipe wells, however I am not sure if that would be appreciated (I would get permission first ofc). Do you think this is a good idea, or unnecessary? There is a "General store" at the Furnace Creek "Inn & resort", however I suspect the mark up would be outrageous.

Newspaperguy

I haven't tried mailing food packages to myself on tour, but I have heard about it being done. Bicycle Fish has more information. Using the Post Office for Bicycle Touring in Australia. You should be able to do something similar.

If you're going to try that, it would be wise to take some basic staples such as rice, pasta, dried lentils, oatmeal, beef jerky, canned meats or trail mix in case your care packages don't arrive when you get to a stop. You're always better planning for a worst-case scenario than being caught unprepared.

staehpj1

I tend to prefer to buy from the little general stores when I can, yes the markup is high, but not unreasonable given the location. I would guess that the savings might not cover the postage.

That said we did use general delivery a good bit and it works quite well. We found it convenient and reliable. At one point on the TA we were given a lot of freeze dried, dried, and other food. We mailed it ahead to various post offices along the way. If we were there when the post office was closed or if we just weren't ready for the package we forwarded it ahead. There was no charge for forwarding (even when we forwarded the same package more than once) and we often did it from another post office. I don't know if this could be done via phone or not.

It might not matter for your trip, but be aware that they officially only hold things 30 days. If you mark it "please hold for touring cyclist" or something they might hold it longer. Also you can use another post office further down the road as a return address so that if they don't hold it it at least goes further down the road.

Also look at the flat rate boxes, they are often, but not always a better deal.

Cave

Make sure you get the insulated air core. The ordinary one won't keep you warm at all.

IntoThickAir

Dear Mesasone,

The new route looks good, with the optional spur into the Mohave. I really recommend adding another detour: between Death Valley Junction and Furnace Creek, head up to Dante's View. It's 14 miles one way on a road that dead-ends in a most spectacular way. It's a wonderful intro to Death Valley. It's also very steep, so you might want to leave your gear hidden in the desert at the road junction and do it as a day ride - just water and raisins.

As for forwarding 'care packages' of food, I wouldn't do it simply because I like to be flexible. My route, for instance, might change. Or I may not show up at the store/post office/ranger station while it's open. Finally, I'd rather give my money to a general store out in the boonies than a Wal-Mart, mainly because I appreciate the fact that somebody has bothered to keep a business alive exactly where I'm happy to see it.

Envious,