erbfarm

just got a (used) Univega gran tourismo last week. Never rode one before and is it just me, or does it always feel like a tank? And what is up with the 27" front wheel being so close my toe clip? I can barely turn. The frame is 21" and is feeling small for me (I'm 5'7") so I can't really use shorter cranks to alleviate the toe-touch problem. I've never had a bike w/ 27" wheels before and well, the whole thing just seems unwieldy (at least that's my impression after only a week of ownership). My only other bike is a 650B conversion on a Specialized Sequoia so I"m used to a light-ish bike that I can turn easily w/o ramming my foot. Is it just me or are these issues common to all touring bikes w/ 27" wheels? I'd like to put smaller wheels on the bike (like 650B) but don't know how that would work out w/ the canti brakes. thanks!

valygrl

I'm 5'2" and have toe overlap on both my 700c wheel bikes, you get used to it pretty fast, you just ratchet around the corners instead of turning a whole circle. Only affects very very slow speed cornering.

RE: everything else, i have no comment.

cheers.

Quemal

I too have a Gran Tourismo, I bought it new in the early 80's. The bicycle was not built for speed but rather heavy duty touring. So, the overall length of the bike is longer than normal. I also have put up with the toe clip thing, but is only a problem at low speeds and very tight turns. My rims are also 27". I imagine that you could put smaller rims on, and adjust the brakes. But the brakes will only adjust so far. You might take it to a bike shop, and ask to try one rim out to see if it fits..

acantor

I bought a custom touring bike that had toe overlap, but could not get used to it. Toe overlap made it difficult to get started going uphill while heavily loaded. After two years of trying to adapt, I returned the bike to its builder, and asked him to reconfigure the bicycle without toe overlap. (Two tubes have been damaged, so he was going to have to break welds anyways.) The problem is now solved, and I am much happier with the bike. (Ecstatic is a better word!)

There are less radical ways to fix toe overlap than cracking apart the frame! Substituting a different fork (with more rake), shortening the cranks, or finding fenders that fit closer to the front wheel all might help.

There is no need for excessive clearance. If my toe clears the wheel by a fraction of a millimetre, that's good enough for me.

Rowan

Interesting. I've said for quite a while that toe overlap is a poor design feature of any bike... to me, it's a bit like having a steering wheel on a car that comes off the shaft unless you concentrate keeping it there; imagine the furore about a design fault like that!

acantor, I'm interested in who the frame builder was, and what changes specifically were made, and most importantly, what change in the handling and feel of the bike in both loaded and unloaded form resulted from the alterations.

staehpj1

I never even notice toe over lap once I have ridden a bike a few times. Others never adjust. I expect toe overlap on a short wheelbase crit racing bike. Strange that they need to design it in on a touring bike on a 21" frame though.

5'7" and a 21" frame is too small? You either like large frames or are all legs. I am a couple inches taller and find a 21" frame ridable, but way too big. Then again I like my bars low and find I can pretty reliably use the Rivendell method of sizing if I drop 3 sizes lower than their recommendation

acantor

The frame builder was Hugh Black of True North Cycles (www.truenorthcycles.com), who offers excellent post-sales support. I don't know whether he tweaked the geometry of the frame when he replaced the damage tubes, but the most obvious change was that he replaced the carbon fork (which had moderate rake) with a steel fork that had more rake. (I no longer wanted the original fork after hearing about a catastrophic carbon fork failure.) Also, at my request, he swapped 28 mm tires for 32 mm tires, and installed a Brooks saddle.

The "new" bicycle handles noticeably differently. It feels more secure and comfortable to me... but I had no complaints about the security and comfort of the original bicycle. It would be hard to sort out whether the differences are due to the new fork, fatter tires, a great saddle, minor changes to the frame geometry, or the fact that the carbon fork made me nervous. The bottom line is that it is hard to compare before and after, because essentially, I had a new bike.

El Pelon

I guess I won't tell you about the catastrophic failure I experienced with a steel fork . . . .

acantor

OK, you have whetted my appetite. What happened?

Ronsonic 

I never understood the problem with toe overlap. In fact waiting at lights and stuff it's convenient, just put down one foot and put your toe against the tire as a parking brake.

After reading this thread I could see someone having trouble getting started on a steep climb with a large awkward load, should be happy to have not been so experienced.

Cave

OK here's my commute home:
Starts in a loading dock, have to go out past a boom gate, while turning, while going uphill. I have to pedal, there's no wiggle room, and toe overlap makes it tricky.
Then I'm on a road, after a while I branch off onto a bike path that runs parallel to the road. Again a turn with no wiggle room, onto an uphill - at least I can coast beforehand.
At the other end of the bike path I need to do a sharp turn through a gate; speed is low, so even though there is no hill or traffic, if my momentum drops too much I can fall off. And I can't really pedal because of the toe overlap.

Touring last year:
Touring in Tassie, some of the roads are steep, narrow and winding so sometimes I'd pull over to let a caravan or a logging truck through. Starting again on the soft shoulder, uphill, maybe in wet conditions - I can't start in too low a gear or I spin out on the wet leaf litter, I can't do a running start because of the panniers. Toe overlap sucks because if I don't get it right first time I might fall.

All this is exacerbated by having mudguards, wider tyres and having my cleats set back on my shoes so my feet don't get sore after several days in a row of riding all day.

So that's why toe overlap sucks, especially on loaded-up bikes with mudguards and wider tyres, especially in traffic or on an uphill, and especially when you have to make sharp turns in a confined space.

Rowan

Thanks for your reply. I am quite fascinated by the issues involved here. Sheldon Brown had several views on fork design and overlap. I agree with his first, and disagree mildly with his second.

Essentially, he said that modern fork manufacturers are so leary of being sued that they have minimise the amount of rake they design to the point where the forks are very stiff in terms of ride quality. Anyone who has ridden, for example, and old lugged steel-framed bike equipped with a fork of generous rake, and then a modern steel-framed bike with less rake on the fork and more "beef" in the design, will understand this point.

What I have found with my Fuji Touring (circa 2000) is that the fork is beefy and without the rake, say, of my Shogun 400 (circa 1980s).

From the get-go, I could not ride the bike without it wandering off course unless I paid constant attention to keeping it in a straight line.

It took a while for me to understand what might be the problem, and particularly in relation to how other bikes have handled with similar length chainstays but greater rake in the fork (the Shogun for instance, but also MTBs).

As a result, I have plans to go slightly retro and slip on a more raked fork to see if that makes a difference to handling and directional stability. It sure is a nuisance having to keep an eye fixed on the road and make numerous corrections when touring or on a randonnee.

Note that this bike does not have toe overlap issues for me.

But that "secure" feeling you mentioned certainly is worth a lot more than on first glance.