rodar y rodar

I just got back from a trip that gave me my first experience with front panniers (my experience with ANY panniers is very limited). When I started, they weren`t very heavy, but I ended up redistributing and lightening the front because my steering was very "floppy" at slow speeds and it was a dirt ride, so pretty much all at slow speeds. In looking at other peoples` setups, it occurs to me that my bags look like they`re a few inches further ahead than most. If it`s worth the trouble, I can modify the rack so that the weight is back along the steerer tube axis, but I don`t want to mess with it if it won`t likely be a considerable improvement. I didn`t weigh the panniers, but I guestimate that they each had ~8 lb to begin with, then I cut it to maybe 5 lb and it worked much better. Other factors at play: suspension fork, heavy bar bag (probably 8 lb there, too), pulling a trailer. Did I just have too much up front with the bar bag and the panniers, or do the geometery and packing gurus think I that should be OK? If not the fore/aft placement of my panniers, any other things to look at? Oh yeah, heavy stuff was already at the bottom. Thanks.

EDIT: for what it` worth, the rack looks canted forward in my picture, but it actually sits level with the ground when I sit on the bike. Part fork squoosh, part optical tricks.

Al Downie

I use a Tubus Swing (see pic below) which is great because it isolates the bags from the 'active' part of the suspension fork - in fact the ride is even smoother when there's reasonable weight in the front panniers. When stationary the fork flops around, for sure, but as soon as I'm rolling it's absolutely stable and I could easily go hands-free. I had originally planned to take a bar bag, but decided against at the last minute, and I didn't miss it at all on the trip. Took a fairly large Lowe Alpine bumbag instead (is that what you 'Merkins call a 'fanny-pack'???)

valygrl

8 pounds is a lot of weight for the HB bag, can you do a test ride leaving everything else the same but w/o that?

rodar y rodar

Valygirl- yeah, that sounds like a good way to help isolate the problem. Do you think the handlebar bag would have a bigger efect than the panniers? On one hand, it`s very high weight, on the other hand, it`s closer to the steering axis. Either way, I`ll experiment and see. Sixteen pounds total for front panniers (without the bar bag) isn`t excessive, is it?

AlDownie- Um, that depends. When you say "bumbag", yeah that sounds like it could be what us Merkins call fanny packs. But the one in your picture looks more like what I would call a hitch hiker. No problems with tennies getting caught in the spokes?

arctos

As with the Tubus Rack above the Bruce Gordon Front Mountain Rack partially straddles the steering axis. I have found the steering to be excellent and I use front panniers only normally with 60% of the total load.
The load is stable and rock solid so there is no side to side movement of the rack or bags as you steer. This is most helpful on unpaved roads and technical single track.

valygrl

rodar y rodar, I don't know really what's going on, but I've had my front bags weigh 8-10 pounds pretty often and not had problems. I have lowrider front racks, though, which you don't, so that might be different. I was just thinking about ways to isolate the problems, as you say.

I never had floppy slow speed steering, but i have had high-speed shimmy when my HB bag is too heavy. Had it this year and had to lighten up the bag.

rodar y rodar

Thanks for the replies, all. Yeah, I`m going to load them up fairly heavy and take a spin without the handlebar bag and see how it goes. If it still wants to flop, I`ll know something is wrong with the rack/panniers and do what I need to to get the weight back more. If it rides OK with heavy panniers and no bag, I`ll just have to fill the bar bag with balloons or something to keep myself from weighing it down so much. Or switch to my little barbag, but it has a hard liner that makes stuff rattle a lot.

Thasiet

The floppiness is definitely your handlebar bag. I can't speak from experience on this, as I don't use a handlebar bag, but I have read many complaints about adverse handling coming from heavily loaded handlebar bags. The problem is not just that the weight is up high, but that the interface lacks triangulation and is usually made of plastic.

Handlebar bags have their place, but it's just silly to use one while failing to take advantage of your rack's top shelf, which is where you should be carrying that weight. You can put a trunk bag there, or if you're cheap you can kludge a way to mount your handlebar bag. I believe that space great to have, as it can be delegated to a fifth "brain" bag for essentials and valuables, a bag which unlike a pannier can be easily carried away from the bike. I know handlebar bags and rack trunks all come with shoulder floss for doing this, but what I mean is something that can be worn all day on a hike. So, when I went on two week tour in July, I carried a lumbar bag strapped to the front rack shelf by running the belt around my pannier carry handles. That was cumbersome to get on and off, and was excruciating loaded with 10lbs on 12 mile dayhike. Shoulda taken the Camelbak MULE. I'll find a way to get that secure up there by next summer.

As far as moving your rack further back, my only front rack experience happens to be with the Bruce Gordon MTB (not for suspension) front rack, same one that Arctos has. It is a top shelf rack specifically designed to get the weight closer to the steering axis. It does this with a wedge shape which puts the rearmost part of the rack just behind the fork. As I said, I have nothing to compare it with, but I must say, my experience with the rack has been a damn pleasant one. The handling on my bike is not in any way floppy. Now, it cannot be ridden hands free until I get past 18mph, but I doubt low riders are stable enough to effect a qualitative change in that respect, and at any rate I prefer having a top shelf for aforementioned reason.

You should try a ride with those 8 pounds moved down to the top shelf first. If that doesn't improve things enough for you, by all means, try to mount the rack further back. But if that requires doing anything irreversible, stop and think about it, and decide whether it matters to you enough that you're willing to replace your rack should you ruin it.

LeeG

ditto on removing the handlebar bag.

Al Downie

Hah!

Strongly recommend one of these instead of a handlebar bag:

Lowe Alpine Mesa Runner

I wore it throughout the whole trip I've just returned from, and it was great - not sweaty or restrictive at all on the bike, not even when walking about in Delhi. Stores everything I needed - camera, money, passports, notebook, snacks, bits & bobs, and can be swung around to sit at the front if you prefer (sometimes comfortable, sometimes for security). And, if you decide it's a hassle to wear it, you can strap it to a rack or your bars. One of the best bits of kit I have.

rodar y rodar

Now that I look at the picture, the bar bag appears to be a lot farther from the axis than I originally thought- the length of the stem, plus the offset from the mount puts it even further out than the panniers. I`m glad I posted up here because I think I was barking up the wrong tree. I`ll test the panniers alone in the next week or so and post back with the results. Thanks again for the ideas.

Thasiet, I built the rack myself- even if I add a lower bar or extend the existing bar back behind the fork leg (it has just enough clearance to go there), I won`t be doing any damage that I can`t fix. The complicated part will be figuring out a way to arrange the short bar for the bottom hook on the panniers without getting in the way of the skewer nuts.

brucewiley

I find that much of any weight up high really affects off-road handling when the going gets tough, whether it's in the handlebar bag or on top of the front rack. Once I moved most of the weight down into front panniers the bike handled much better. This is especially noticeable for me since I use trekking bars and with the hands close together while braking, etc. I don't have much turning leverage. I took one off-road trip of 35 miles where that combination of high weight and low leverage put me on the ground multiple times (ouch).

The high weight doesn't seem to be that much of a problem on the road, you get used to it. I still use a handlebar bag but I'm careful not to put too much weight in it.

Bruce

rodar y rodar

I bummed a scale from a weight weenie backpacker friend and did some experimenting with known weights. For panniers alone, no barbag whatsoever, I got very surprising results. They feel good at ten pounds each, then go almost instantly to Flopville between ten and twelve pounds. It struck me as odd because first, I would have expected a gradual increase in handling efects, and second, I expected more weight before they gave me any problems. I know there are different loading strategies but 60/40 seems to be pretty common and 20 pounds (ten + ten) doesn`t come close to 60% of my load.

For barbag alone I did get a gradual increase in noticeable efect. I start feeling it at around five pounds but it`s still not too bad up to ten. I`m second guessing my estimate of eight pounds in the bag on my last trip- probably felt like more than it was, maybe because there`s no handle on top of the bag so I have to grab it in an odd way to pick it up. Any rate, I`ll try to keep that to a minimum in the future- wallet, camera, a few hours worth of snacks.

For the magic combo load, I came up with six, six, and three for a perfectly good load and I can fudge two pounds extra in each pannier or two extra on the bar and still keep it reasonable- I guess my weight estimates were off last time. If I get around to it, I`ll fix the rack to hold my panniers lower and further back, otherwise I`ll just deal with it as is. I still think I should be able to get away with more weight up front, but at least I have other options since I tow the BOB. And if I ever get a "touring bike" put together, I`ll buy rear panniers to go with it. Thanks for the advice, all.

positron

I think any improvements will result from moving the bags back if possible. I agree with B-Gordon that the weight should be centred along the steering axis. After this consideration comes lowering the weight. All of your weight is in front of your steering axis (in the picture).

I use a tubus duo and I can easily carry 20-40 pounds total without ANY effect on handling provided I mount the panniers as far back as I can. If I mount them forward a bit on the rack, i start to notice 'flop'. Also, Riding hands-free down to a speed low enough that my dynamo stops working is possible (~3-5mph).