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  1. #1
    Senior Member gregw's Avatar
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    Holy Grail of water proof, breathable everything

    The Holy Grail is coming soon, or so I hope. Look for it in the next few years.

    http://www.p2ilabs.com/

    It's a nano-coating that makes any material / object highly water resistant, in most cases waterproof. It's a plasma gas process that is applied to the final product, not the raw base materials. It was developed for the British Military and now has a commercial division. Also works on electronics like phones, radios, cameras etc. Think of the applications for the touring cyclist.

    - Rain gear that is truly breathable. Waterproof Cool Max, or better yet a thin mesh fabric.
    - Ultralight single wall tents made just of the No-see-um fabric.
    - Any electronics right on the handlebars with no fear of rain.

    They are a privately owned company, so no opportunities to invest. (I already asked, I have no affiliation with them)

    What else could you use it on?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    The Holy Grail is coming soon, or so I hope.
    Maybe, yes. Maybe, no.

    There are a lot of hurdles to pass before getting a product that actually works in the real world and has sufficient durability.

  3. #3
    Senior Member gregw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Maybe, yes. Maybe, no.

    There are a lot of hurdles to pass before getting a product that actually works in the real world and has sufficient durability.

    First products are already out on the market. Must be pretty durable to go on hiking boots??

    http://www.hi-tec.com/us/46266-produ...a_wpi-all.html

    And for electronics

    http://www.golden-shellback.com/

    These are licensed versions from 2Pi labs
    Last edited by gregw; 01-07-09 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #4
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    I already have a closest full of waterproof hiking boots! What I really need is a biking jacket and pants that fit the bill. Right now I'm using Gortex, which seems to work for several years, but let's face it, it's still a little bit like wearing a plastic bag.

    Can I expect a jacket to be forthcoming?

  5. #5
    Senior Member bikebuddha's Avatar
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    They promised the same thing about gore-tex years ago.
    The few, the proud, the likely insane, Metro-Atlanta bicycle commuters.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    First products are already out on the market. Must be pretty durable to go on hiking boots??

    http://www.hi-tec.com/us/46266-produ...a_wpi-all.html
    But likely not "truely" breathable (see below). (It's also not clear that it's any better than the alternatives.)

    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    - Rain gear that is truly breathable.
    ==========

    Goretex fabrics (for instance) require a water repellant coating on the outside. This wears away. You can reapply it but it doesn't work as good as the original application.

  7. #7
    Senior Member gregw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    But likely not "truely" breathable (see below). (It's also not clear that it's any better than the alternatives.)



    ==========

    Goretex fabrics (for instance) require a water repellant coating on the outside. This wears away. You can reapply it but it doesn't work as good as the original application.

    You gotta read the website a little closer, it's not gortex and does not need recoating and is far more durable than gortex and is breathable. At least according to them. Here is the white paper from their site.

    http://www.p2ilabs.com/images/storie...06695-0808.pdf

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    You gotta read the website a little closer,
    I don't "gotta" do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    it's not gortex and does not need recoating and is far more durable than gortex and is breathable.
    I didn't say it was Goretex. I was just pointing out one common problem with "miracle" breathable/waterproof coatings. Note that boots typically are not as breathable as fabrics (leather isn't very breathable). It would be interesting to see how well it worked in a jacket.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregw View Post
    At least according to them.
    That could be a problem.

  9. #9
    Senior Member staehpj1's Avatar
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    It will be interesting to see if it lives up to their promises and claims.

  10. #10
    jcm
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    Dream on.

  11. #11
    Senior Member BigBlueToe's Avatar
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    I'm a doubter, but I hope it's true. I love Gore-tex, but I know its limitations.

  12. #12
    Hooked on Touring
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    Leak-Tex never did it for me.
    I'll take a wait-and-see approach.

  13. #13
    Senior Member staehpj1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamawani View Post
    Leak-Tex never did it for me.
    I'll take a wait-and-see approach.
    Yeah, for me it seemed like I was always just as wet as with plain old coated nylon, but colder.

  14. #14
    Punk Rock Lives Roughstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
    Yeah, for me it seemed like I was always just as wet as with plain old coated nylon, but colder.

    Well I sure hope the stuff works; but like gore-tex, I think it will be much ado about nothing. BREATHEABILITY is only one issue when it comes to getting clammy and sweaty during a climb or during a ride. The real issue is that your body is producing sweat far faster than it is capable of evaporating...PERIOD. You could be riding buckass naked and still get a nice layer of sweat all over yourself. Ask any runner who wears a negligee singlet.

    The other point is that these breathabilitymaniacs forget is that sweat is ALOT more than water. Sure..water molecules can get thru..but there is alot of other gunk that doesn't. If want to get an idea of how non-watery sweat is, squeeze out your jersey into a 8 oz. glass and take a swig or two.

    Finally, in a heavy rainfall, your raingear is convered with a thin layer/laminate of water on the outside, anyway. Guess what. This layer is not breathable.

    I have yet to read a favorable review of goretex that by a group that hasn't received a trillion dollars in sponsorship money for some expedition to Katmanastan.

    I ride with a yellow rain jacket similar to what your mom sent with ya to Kindergarten. Works fine, is reversible, doubles as a drop cloth, and costs 1/10th of goretex.


    roughstuff
    Electric car sales are on fire! :)

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    if it's a holy grail sounds unobtainable. So far my Showers Pass jacket is the closest thing to perfect I've seen for garbage cold wet weather and sweating. Better than goretex.


    http://showerspass.com/cart/product_...e1d5a58b93638a

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Epic encapsulated fabrics are 'waterproof' enough for tent canopies and breathable enough for shell clothing.

    i suspect this newfangled plasma coating will have application restrictions, vapor permeability limitations, and NOT be a holy grail to waterproof hawaiian shirts (my preferred style of riding shirt) but if it can waterproof my cellphone more power to them. boots can already be made waterproof.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
    Woof! venturi95's Avatar
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    + infinity to the Showers Pass jacket. I think it is more breathable than regular uncoated nylon. I can't say enough about how great mine works, they should give them out to everyone like social security numbers.

  18. #18
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    note the site carefully- the technical articles describe it's breathability (not any worse than the original untreated highly breathable fabric, and WAY better than goretex) and it's resistance to abrasion (very high, better than any other coating tested). note however that the golden shellback folks say that repairs on treated electronics are done through abrasion. they likely mean something more heavy duty though...
    granted these are studies done by someone selling a product, but the tests look legit (standardized, reproducible).

    that waterproof hawaiian shirt might be close. this sort of technology has been advancing rapidly over the past decade.

  19. #19
    dia por dia El Pelon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    I don't "gotta" do anything.

    Somebody pee in your wheaties?
    Dia por dia.

  20. #20
    jcm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post
    Well I sure hope the stuff works; but like gore-tex, I think it will be much ado about nothing. BREATHEABILITY is only one issue when it comes to getting clammy and sweaty during a climb or during a ride. The real issue is that your body is producing sweat far faster than it is capable of evaporating...PERIOD. You could be riding buckass naked and still get a nice layer of sweat all over yourself. Ask any runner who wears a negligee singlet.

    The other point is that these breathabilitymaniacs forget is that sweat is ALOT more than water. Sure..water molecules can get thru..but there is alot of other gunk that doesn't. If want to get an idea of how non-watery sweat is, squeeze out your jersey into a 8 oz. glass and take a swig or two.

    Finally, in a heavy rainfall, your raingear is convered with a thin layer/laminate of water on the outside, anyway. Guess what. This layer is not breathable.

    I have yet to read a favorable review of goretex that by a group that hasn't received a trillion dollars in sponsorship money for some expedition to Katmanastan.

    I ride with a yellow rain jacket similar to what your mom sent with ya to Kindergarten. Works fine, is reversible, doubles as a drop cloth, and costs 1/10th of goretex.


    roughstuff
    Absolutely spot-on.

    The only time raingear - and very good raingear at that - has ever worked for me has been in a fishing boat, standing stock-still. Everything else, including GoreTex, is a sauna in minutes. The rate of moisture exuded by a working cyclist cannot be evap'd thru anything fast enough. It's just the way it is.

    I put forth the belief that those of you who are saying that this or that is "great" or "is very comfortable" or whatever, are really girls - whom we all know, don't sweat - they glisten. So there!

  21. #21
    The Sojourner
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    Mark my words. Nano-technology is the new frontier in science and will change the way we live in the future. Using it in this manner is just one of many (including medical breakthroughs) on the horizon. Very interesting stuff!!

  22. #22
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    hey, jcm. yeah, none of us sweat when riding

    thats' why some of use are suggesting fabrics with more breathability than traditional waterproof fabrics. Wool most definetly evaps perspiration well.

    Epic encapsulated nylons work very well IMO. Epic encapsulated tents are very dry to sleep in and don't clam out like traditional singlewall tents.

    I'm not riding in a yellow rubberized rainslicker OR goretex if I can help it. Overdependence on a waterproof coat is a clammy compromise.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  23. #23
    Senior Member TromboneAl's Avatar
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    I'm not sure my cell phone needs to breathe.
    My Book: Drive, Ride, Repeat: The Mostly-True Account of a Cross-Country Car and Bicycle Adventure

  24. #24
    Punk Rock Lives Roughstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcm View Post
    Absolutely spot-on.

    The only time raingear - and very good raingear at that - has ever worked for me has been in a fishing boat, standing stock-still....:

    I have a girly-man story. I was in a fishing boat with a buddy who lent me some of his gore-tex stuff. Sure enough I stayed as dry as a *******. When I stood up to stretch at the end of it all, damned if i didn't rock the boat and fall in!

    I guess it is my destiny to be a wet hen. How i managed to learn how to bicycle, when I am so uncoordinated is beyond me. I had training wheels on for 3 summers.

    roughstuff
    Electric car sales are on fire! :)

  25. #25
    My tank takes chocolate. FlowerBlossom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcm View Post
    I put forth the belief that those of you who are saying that this or that is "great" or "is very comfortable" or whatever, are really girls - whom we all know, don't sweat - they glisten. So there!
    Ahem.

    But women sweat. Rivers.

    Carry on.
    Feminism is the profound notion that women are human beings.

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