LeeG

wentworth, I think you're stuck in the world of options as though the options are what matters as opposed to actually getting the bike. Unless you are going to do all the assembly yourself with heavily discounted NEW parts putting together a new frameset with a variety of used parts isn't going to get you a better package than a complete, new bike.

tacomee

Ah, I'd say the new Tiagra is Shimano's strongest road gruppo right now. I love the Tiagra hubs, derailers and shifters. Because 9 speed systems have a greater tolerance for wear and dirt, Tiagra parts are a great choice for real world, non-racing cycling.

In reality, I've rebuilt a lot of Shimano hubs, 105, XT, LX, DX, Ultegra, ect....I haven't seen a big difference in the quality of the cones, seals or bearings in any of the mid range Shimano stuff. The new FH 4500 Tiagra hubs look like the older FH 6600 Ultegra hubs. Maybe the Ultegra hubs had better cones, but I doubt it. In fact, they may even use the same cones!

In the past couple of years, the Deore and Tiagra lines have gotten a lot of *trickle down* upgrades from the higher lines. As far as touring bikes go, with their 8 and 9 speed drive trains and need for strong, less sexy parts, Tiagra parts work great.

AlanK

While that might be true arguing that Tiagra hubs are comparable in quality to XT is laughable.

Then there's also the issue who frame and wheels sizes: for small and medium sized riders (54cm LHT frames and smaller) you get 26" wheels (for better or worse depending on your perspective), whereas all Randonee sizes have 700c wheels. This makes them very different bikes in the small and medium sizes.

To me this is another advantage for the LHT: When a 700c frame is made for a small-ish rider compromises must be made; wisely, Surly built the smallers sizes for 26" wheels which are probably a better way to go for loaded touring anyway.

Chuck G

Spokes on the 2007 Randonee were stainless steel painted black (painted - WTF? why???) from cnspoke and the material was sourced from Sandvik. That was 2 years ago. Email REI customer service if you want to know what's on the 2009 model.

I am no hub expert, I know enough to get into trouble. I know MTB hubs are supposedly better sealed than road hubs and have wider spacing.

With the wider spacing in MTB hubs do you have less dish in the rear wheel? Is it enough to make the rear wheel stronger, or is the difference in dish not enough to make much difference?

I'm 6'2" 185lbs and ride a 59cm Randonee. It fits me fine but I only commute on it, I haven't tried touring yet. Might be too small for the OP.

The main advantages I see of the Randonee over the LHT is: the price difference during REI's 20% periods, REI's return policy - effectively a lifetime warranty on the bike, and if you like brifters over bar ends.

tacomee

So, what's the difference between Tiagra and XT hubs? Same basic design. Maybe the cones are harder? I'm sure the races are better in the XT hubs, but by how much? Would it really make any difference in the real world? Those Alex rims would be the first thing to fail on the LHT anyhow.

The bottom line is that the Randonee and the LHT have frames that are built in the same factory by the same workers out of roughly the same grade of tubing. Both have the same low rent powder coats, both have about the same quality of parts, both cost about the same.

Test ride and buy the one you like best.

staehpj1

I like STI and don't care for 26" wheels on any but the smallest frames. Given the choice I would go for Randonee. That said someone else may go the other way based on the same 2 factors depending on their preferences.

wentworth

so the sizing thing... im 6'3" alomost 6'4"... 62 or 60cm lht? i think the 59 randonee may be a bit small... the difference between the 60 and 62 is mostly in the head tube... sorry, but ive never had a touring rig, and there are countless discussions about sizing up vs down. any tall, goofy guys with real world experience that can relate, please chime in.

AlanK

I've had detailed discussions with a friend who has built several hundred wheels over the last 20 years (along with what the late-great Sheldon Brown has written). Here's what I know:

- While it varies by specific hub and manufacturer mtb hubs generally have stronger seals than road hubs. This makes sense since mtbs are typically exposed to more dirt, moisture, etc.

- Rear hub spacing is determined by the rear drop-out (O.L.D.) dimensions of the frame. Most modern mtbs are spaced for 135mm hubs while most road hubs are spaced at 130mm. Some bikes have 132.5 spacing to accommodate either type of hub). Some touring frames have 130 spacing, some 135 (some 132.5). So yes, a wheel built around 135mm hub will have less dish than one built around 130mm hub.

- All other things being equal wheels with less dish are slightly stronger, but dish is one of the least important factors that determines wheel strength. Wheel strength is determined more by the rim, and by the gauge and number of spokes than it is by dish. An adequately strong wheel can be built around either a 130 or 135 hub.

That said, a frame with 135 (or 132.5) spacing is versatile because it enables more options than a frame with 130 spacing: You can use either a mtb or road hub on the 135/132.5 frame, whereas the 130 frame will only fit a 130 hub, or a 132.5 hub with great difficulty. As far as I know you can't fit a 135-spaced hub on a 130 frame.

To me this is another smart design advantage in favor of the LHT: The LHT frame has 135 spacing, meaning it will fit either mtb or road hubs. I'm not positive, but think the Randonee was 130 spacing (since stand Tiagra hubs are 130). This is just one example of many details that makes the LHT a better bike IMO; Surly is managed and operated by people who really know and love bikes, and it shows in the details like this.

Thulsadoom

I'm not disagreeing with anything, but I've put rear wheels with 130 hubs on bikes with 135 rear dropout spacing several times and had no problems. Just had to mess with the shifting adjustments a little.

Chuck G

I remember reading somewhere that the Randonee has 132.5 rear spacing. I sent an email to REI to verify this.

habcup

I'm 6'3" and bought a 62cm LHT. Looking back, I wish I went with the 60cm to have just a little more crotch clearance for mounting and dismounting from the bike. The effective top tube difference (10 mm) between the 62 and the 60 is mostly offset by the difference in the seat tube angles of these two sizes (the wheelbase difference is only 4.4mm). Surly measures their sizes from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the top tube, so a 62cm Surly would be a 65cm for many other manufacturers.

tacomee

Novara frames run a little big, so a 59 cm Randonee might be bigger than a 60 cm LHT, I don't really know however....the only way to really tell would be to test ride them. The Randonee has 132.5 spacing between the rear drop outs, however. You can use both MTB and road wheels.

For anyone out there confused about different types and grades of Shimano hubs.... this is a link to a replacement cone for about half the front hubs Shimano makes (LX, 105, XT and most Ultegra hubs use the same cone/dust cap).

https://www.bikeman.com/HU1651.html?u...ign=GoogleBase

There isn't any real world difference in quality of wheels built with road and 5mm wider MTB hubs. MTB hubs aren't really stronger or any better at keeping water or dirt out. All the mid level Shimano hubs are pretty made out of the same parts.

AlanK

I generally agree - even though a 135 spaced wheel might technically be slightly stronger than 130 (all other things being equal), the actual real-world difference is so minuscule it's insignificant.

And just for the record Surly was one of the first manufacturers to build frames with 132.5 spacing; now, many others have followed suit.

Chuck G

Here is the answer I got from REI:

"Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the rear dropout spacing on the 2009 Novara Randonee.

The rear spacing is 132.5 mm on that frame, allowing easy use of either 130 mm or 135 mm hub-based wheels.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Ed S.
REI Product Information Specialist"

AlanK

My mistake, and thanks for correcting me Chuck.

So the two major differences are STI (Randonee) vs bar-end (LHT) shifters, and 700c (Randonee) vs 26" (54cm and smaller LHT frames) wheels.

So I think more than anything the most important factor is the wheels for small and medium sized riders (since shifters can be switched easily). If you're a small to small/medium sized rider and want 26" wheels go with the LHT; if you want 700c wheels, go with the Randonee. And if you aren't sure think long and hard about the kind of riding you'll be doing, try both, then decide.

ucs308

I am also trying to decide between the LHT and the Randonee. The LHT would probably have 700c tires on it, since the sizes with 26" wheels would be too small for me.

I don't like the handlebar on either bike, I prefer a flat bar and think I might like the bars on the Novara Safari better. So most of my focus has been on components and tire size. I want a tire/wheel that can handle fire-road type trails as well as pavement and I am not sure if the LHT and the Randonee are equal in terms of the tires/wheels - specifically the width - they can both handle assuming 700c.

My other thought is that the components on the LHT seem to be better quality than those on the Randonee. But this thread is kinda confusing on this point. Is it really a wash? Or does one bike have a clear advantage over the other in terms of components.

I am going to ride the Randonee tomorrow and will be trying the LHT later next week. But if I like them both.... and can only buy one.

Oh.. the other thing is.. I have seen a lot of complaints about the Randonee paint job. People say it chips easily. Anybody comment on this.

AlanK

As for the tire clearance, I'm not sure about the Randonee, but the LHT does allow for some pretty wide tires - 700x42 w/fenders - I think, but check their web site to confirm. I'm not sure about the Randonee's tire capacity, REI doesn't list it on their site (another thing I don't like about them). Neither bike seems capable off tough off-road riding (this topic has been discussed in relation to the LHT, check around).

As for the components, I still maintain the LHT has better wheels (XT hubs, Adventurer rims), everything else is pretty even. I think much of your decision will come down to whether you prefer STI shifters (Randonee) or bar-ends (LHT). I'm an ardent supporter of bar-ends, others feel the same about STI.

Chuck G

I have not had any problems with the paint on my Randonee, it's a 2007 and I have about 2500 miles on it. Some older reviews of the Randonee complained of rear wheel spoke breakage problems, I have not had any spoke problems but I have not toured on the bike either.

I measured 52mm between the chainstays on my Randonee at the widest part of the tires. I have the stock 700x32 Vittoria Randoneurs on with fenders and there is 3/8" clearance on either side of the tires at the chainstays.

Others may disagree but on paper I don't see much difference between the LHT and the Randonee in terms of frame and component quality.

Both bikes have frames made in Taiwan of the same grade of steel, Reynolds 520 = 4130. They both have 132.5mm rear spacing.

LHT has better hubs and rear derailleur than the Randonee.

To me the rims are probably are a wash. On bikeman.com the Mavic A319 rim is $44 and the Alex Adventurer rim is $29. If component cost is any indication of quality then the Randonee has better rims. Maybe someone else who has experience with both rims can weigh in.

LHT has name brand spokes vs. stainless spokes from a lesser known vendor on the Randonee.

Randonee has a better headset than the LHT.

They have the same front derailleur.

Tiagra brifters vs. Dura Ace bar ends - pick your poison...

According to specs on their web sites it seems to me they have about the same quality brakes, cassette, chain.

I don't know about the Deore vs. the Andel crank. Both bikes are geared about the same.

They are both entry level touring bikes, neither bike has a frame made of super high quality steel or has fancy hand built wheels. To me the most significant differences between these bikes is the LHT has more size choices and arguably better geometry for touring (1" longer chainstays), versus the Randonee has an unbeatable warranty and you can get it on sale regularly for $250 less than the LHT. Test ride both and see which fits better and which you like better.

When I was looking for a touring bike 2 years ago I wanted a new bike for commuting and weekend road rides. I looked on the web at all the standard steel frame entry level touring and cross bikes (520, LHT, Cross Check, Randonee, Jamis Aurora, Fuji Touring, Bianchi Volpe) compared specs, read reviews, read threads on BF and elsewhere, yada, yada, yada. When it came down to it I didn't want to buy a bike without a test ride and I could only find 2 touring bikes in stock locally: Trek 520 and Novara Randonee. I rode both and liked the Randonee better.

Louis

Although the new LHT's are spec'd with Andel on the Surly website, my '09 LHT came equipped with a Sugino crank.

AlanK

That's not all that much clearance, esp w/fenders. W/fenders 700x38 is probably the max tire size you can fit on the Randonee; while as not as big as the LHT, 700x38 is about as large as most riders will ever need.