flippantfeet

So, I've got my fancy new 520 and my old bags simply are not working. I need a front rack and rear and front panniers, and quick!. I sure do like the prices at Nashbar, as others have stated. $30 for a pair of bags? It seems crazy when from there I go looking at REI, where a set costs $100 and up. I'm doing full loaded, long distance touring and I like nice gear. But when I can buy three sets of Nashbars for one set of the primos, it's an assault on all sensibility. I saw an earlier nashbar post and see that a lot of people agree that for what you pay, the bags are okay. Can anyone expound on quality as related to price? Also, do I need to consider the fit of the front rack? Has anyone had a rack just break on them? What am I going to loose by paying $30 for a front rack versus $60 for a front rack?
Any tips or guidance would be great!

fantom1 

I've always been a buy once person...

What you'll get is a lifetime warranty (Arkel for sure, and Ortlieb too maybe?), much better attention to detail (no seams unraveling, etc), better materials, strength (for heavy loads), customer service (can only speak for Arkel), and better attachment mechanisms.

The same is true of racks. Aluminum might be great, but having the peace of mind of knowing that when I really really put a load on the rack it will be fine was worth the extra money. After all, if every time you hit a bump the thought to check the rack comes up, that detracts from the joy of touring (at least to me).

I knew I wanted a steel rack with a large platform and only two racks fit that...both on the expensive side. I chose the lesser expensive of the two.

Bacciagalupe

If you pick up a pair of Ortliebs, you get a waterproof pannier that won't rip, tear or separate in mid-tour. I've used cheap panniers in the past, and they didn't last long. If you're touring regularly, a good set of panniers is worth the extra cost.

IMO you have a little more latitude with racks, but I still don't see the benefit in scraping the bottom of the barrel. I'm not too thrilled about Delta, but Topeak makes some decent and affordable racks.

surfjimc

I come from the buy it once camp. i find it is always worth waiting longer saving money to buy quality things that I won't have to replace. It has definitely paid off over time. I am doing the same thing with my new touring bike, racks and bags.

prathmann

I bought a cheap set of panniers and was somewhat disappointed in the lightweight fabric used and I've had to make a few repairs as there were some rips when I overstuffed them - and when a rodent chewed through to get to some bread. But they have already served me quite well over the last 34 years so I can't really complain considering the large number of tours they've been on in addition to various grocery and other shopping trips. These were the Nashbar house brand although it was when that company was still known as Bike Warehouse. Last year I got Nashbar's waterproof rear panniers (about $30) as a replacement. But the picture below shows the old pair still in use in our recent camping trip to Yosemite as a friend had borrowed the newer set. If the new set works as well as the old one did I'll consider the money well spent.

As to racks, I've only had one rack actually fail - that was a Pletcher with single struts that I was using to move to a different apartment. It didn't take well to having 100+ lb loads placed on it. The rack holding the panniers below is also from Nashbar and is the Ascent brand. It was a little under $10 and seems very solid on the trips I've used it on so far (but I haven't tried any 100 lb loads).

adaminlc

Once and a while, there is a way around the buy once rule. Look around in here and you may find one, but I have found that there isn't when it comes to panniers. It is one area where you really get what you pay for. Go to REI.com. Ortliebs are on sale right now for $119. Great deal. Another way to go is improvise, which is my way around the buy once rule. Another way around is to sew your own, if you swing that way. But no matter what you do, don't buy something cheap that will fail when you need it most.

sccr2337

Panniers = buy once
Racks = buy cheap

I have a very expensive/heavy duty front rack and a cheap $17 rear rack. The rear rack is holding more weight and Ive had fewer problems with it.

Doug64

FWIW, I subscribe with the buy the best you can afford crowd. I have used several different sets of panniers and have recebtly switched to Ortlieb's. I've used them on a cross country tour and a shorter 600 miler last summer with great results. I use mid-priced racks and have not had any trouble. Having said that, I did use a small set of the Nashbar waterproof panniers on the front for those same trips without too much trouble. I have since replace the Nashbars with Ortlieb's. The fastening system is where you really notice the difference. I had one of the Nashbar panniers bounce off when I hit a pothole going downhill. No damage, but the potentail was there. That does not happen with Ortlieb gear. There is a lot to be said for good equipment.

Randochap

It's true: You get what you pay for.

It it's a difference between touring or not, get what you can afford; but don't cheap out on these important accessories if you don't have to.

I've had cheap racks bend on rough roads.

staehpj1

It depends what you like and which items you pick. To some extent it might matter how heavy or light you pack. Some low priced racks and panniers are quite good and some high priced stuff I wouldn't use if it was given to me for free. More expensive just doesn't always equate to better.

Surly Nice Racks are a prime example. At 5.4 pounds for the two Surly racks I would much rather have my Blackburn EX-1 and Nashbar low rider clone. The pair come in at something like half the weight and are about $60 when on sale (which they almost always are) compared to about $240 for the Surly racks. Twice the weight and 4 times the price may be worth it to some but it isn't to me. I would feel differently if I didn't think that the Blackburn/Nashbar combo wasn't up to the task, but I have found them to be very durable and would not be surprised if they out lived me.

I find a similar situation when comparing Nashbar waterproof panniers to Arkels. The Nashbars are much cheaper and much lighter. They are plenty durable in my experience. Three of us used them on the Trans America and one of us commuted with them for two years in addition. I have no reason to think that I won't be able to use them for the next 100K miles of touring if I live that long.\

Tubus is nice as is Ortleib apparently, but they aren't worth the extra cost to me.

Cyclesafe

I've been thinking about this issue a lot lately.

I think that a careful consideration of quality is vital when the consequence of failure will be high - like having to bail on a tour. Or, for me at least, even if such failure requires a lift to where repair is possible.

OTOH, another way of looking at this - and I think this POV is new - is that if you buy something that is made for more than one failure-free trip, any weight penalty involved is actually suffered to support subsequent trips.

For example, assume that you consider Arkel T-42 (5.0 lb/pair) and Lone Peak P-400 (2.9 lb/pair) rear panniers to be functionally equivalent. It means that if you were to chose the former, you'd be hauling 2.1 lbs more for every trip until the end of the expected llifetime of the Lone Peaks (that you didn't buy).

This is huge. Consider other gear where there is obvious functional equivalency, like racks or tents - especially tents. Say you rarely run into high wind or accumulating snow and chose the Hilleberg Allak over the Big Agnes Copper Spur II. That's 6.6 lb versus 3.8 lb, respectively. OK, with the Hilleberg your children and maybe grandchildren will be using that tent, but is that worth hauling around an incremental 2.8 lb for the rest of your life?

Now that latter example is extreme, but if you looked at all of your gear in the same light, I think it might be easier to go with lower quality when higher quality also means higher weight. Of course, functional equivalency is assumed and that's quite subjective because there just isn't the empirical data available to make objective assessments.

Staehpj1, I just noticed that you made a similar point. But your's is the more subjective and general "good enough" argument, mine presses the similar point with a more quantitative (but nevertheless still subjective) argument

staehpj1

I think you said what I am thinking, but expressed it more eloquently than I did.

LeeG

there isn't always a correlation. I bet there's a greater correlation between user abuse and failure than cost of gear and failure. There's a range in price for a variety of reasons besides higher quality, there's higher labor cost and smaller production. Your best bet is looking for reviews of specific products. My objection to low cost goods is that they often replicate all the bells and whistles on high end goods but poorly when all that is really needed is a bag with a secure method of attachment.

My first tour I did in 1973 up the Ca. coast was with the lowest cost goods, flexible pletscher rack(the kind with a spring) and panniers that were made with waxed cardboard stiffeners. It worked as did the funny half step gearing on the Nishiki ten speed. The area where cost and quality correlate might be where extreme use and abuse are the same but it still gets down to getting first hand feedback.

bugly64

I had a cheap rear/front rack. I had cheap or commuter style panniers also. I ran to the buy once camp with my Lone Peak p-500's and Surly nice racks front and rear.

Cyclesafe

Price is what the manufacturer can get away with charging. Full stop.

Cost of manufacture is like a stop sign. If the price they can charge is not sufficiently higher than the cost, the product does not make it to the market. They raise prices if they can raise perceived value and reduce costs if they don't reduce perceived quality. Separating bull**** from reality is the consumer's job not the manufacturer's. Let the buyer beware (tempered by product liability and warranty laws, of course).

cyccommute 

Buy what you can afford but remember that buying something that is cheap twice saves you no money

I've had a number of bags in the past. They are all relatively good but some are more waterproof than others. That doesn't make too much difference because the less waterproof ones taught me the very handy trick of packing my clothes in plastic bags. I still do it with my Ortlieb bags but I do so for organization now.

What you do get with more expensive bags are more sophisticated...and more secure...mounting hardware. Cheap bags tend to use cheap hardware (they have to save money somewhere) which usually includes open hooks and elastic cords. Mounting them every morning can be frustrating. The security of those hooks and cords is also minimal. Hit a bump and you could be watching your bag fly off into an Iowa corn field.

Ortlieb bags, for example, have a mounting mechanism that is simple, easy to use, quick to remove and install and is hyper-secure. They won't fly off and the only way that they are going to end up in an Iowa corn field is if they take the bike with them If you have to remove the bags due to a mechanical problem or flat, the bags go on and off much easier which makes roadside repairs less frustrating.

A cheap rack will probably stand up to years of use. I've used one Blackburn aluminum rack for 15 years and just swapped it from bike to bike. I've never broken a rack on any bike...well maybe an old cast Pleitscher...so I wouldn't worry too much about breakage. However, more expensive racks have some advantages too. One they last forever but, then, so do aluminum ones. They really shine when it comes to actually carrying the load. On my 2005 trip with my daughter, I watch her cheap aluminum rack (the OEM one on a Fuji Touring) sway back and forth through a 1" or more arc as she rode down the road. She even had a rather light load on the back but I could see the rack moving back and forth. A more expensive rack like the Tubus Cargo is much more solid under load (swapped out on her bike) and makes bike handling easier. The rear load is carried solidly and the bike rides and handles better. I suspect that some high speed shimmy...the dreaded death wobble...on touring bike is cause by flexible rear racks. The expensive racks are usually easier to mount as well. They offer more adjustment opportunities.

If you are going to go with a less expensive rack, I'd suggest finding a rack made of tubing rather than rod. Unlike Bacciagalupe, I like the Delta racks for this reason. They use a larger diameter tube...more like the Tubus...that makes them a bit stiffer than the Blackburn/Chinese knockoff variety of rack. The flat stays for the seat tube aren't that great but everyone uses those.

LeeG

I wonder what the op "old bags" are. What is it that makes them not work well. I've used a pair of Jandd Economy panniers for a couple years now and like them. They were lightly loaded when I did an endo that took me to the ER and they stayed on the bike. Not sure if they would if heavily loaded. Curious if anyone uses extra straps/bungies on fully loaded panniers to keep the contents from shifting relative to the rack/bike.

Louis

Something else to ponder:

Some people seem to wear out and/or break things at an alarming rate. Others can use that same brand and model of equipment for years with little wear and rarely break anything. I don't know what forces are at work here, but most of us should know, by now, which group we're in.

Peruano

Nothing beats quality, but often used will be as good as new if you can find it. There are good second hand sources (Play it again, local versions in places like Denver, bike swaps, and indeed friends and acquaintances in the cycling community. I agree with cyccommuter, mounintg for panniers is the all important feature (any bag can be lined with a garbage bag, but if its hanging in the road its worthless. I've never broken a rack, but then again I've almost always used Blackburn or better. Yes the tubular are better than the solid rod versions and new racks are more adjustable to accomodate fenders, get them level, etc. The old system of 2 hooks, a spring and bungee cord attachment system worked but just barely, make sure your panniers have more positive attachment options. JMO. tom

EmmCeeBee

Agreed.
Yes!
Aha!

So I agree with the "it depends" crowd

If money were no object, it would be an easy decision. But I tend to take time on purchase decisions, so I'm satisfied when I choose less expensive alternatives (panniers, clothes, bikes, cars, ...).

What I want to contribute is this: I still tour with REI panniers that I bought 20 years ago. They're showing signs of wear, to be sure, and I've had to make a few repairs. But the point is, 20 years ago these were near top-of-the-line -- the whole set cost $80, I think. Nowadays, they'd definitely be low-end (they kind of look like the ones in prathman's photo, above).

So, if I find a similarly-designed cheap pair, I'd buy 'em in an instant. You don't have to spend $$$$ to get serviceable, quality equipment. At the very least, it's a cheap learning experience for finding out what works and what doesn't.

The one situation where I'd take the "spend lots" rule is if I was heading out to Patagonia, or the Silk Road, for a multi-year tour. But not for multi-weeks tours in North America.

Yep. Most important thing is how well you take care of your stuff.

-- Mark

positron

I tend to appreciate the stiffness of quality racks. I had a topeak alloy rack that worked very well for many years until snapping at a weld on a dirt road. I chose to replace it with the tubus logo. This was a good choice in my estimation, since carried loads are much more stable on the tubus rack than the topeak.

I bought Carradice panniers because they would last, they are repairable easily, and they are handmade in England, rather than a factory in Asia. This is where personal politics come into play, and I would rather buy one thing that lasts, that is not a disposable item, and supports a cottage industry paying a living wage. The cheap things may be functionally adequate, but they generally do not meet the standards of manufacturing I would like to support when I vote with my dolllars. For this reason I would also buy Lone peak, but probably not want to spend my money on ortliebs. (I got a pair of 'liebs in trade, and they are very nice, but Id rather support the existence of lone peak or carradice.)

For this reason, I would also try to buy used first.

John Nelson

I had a friend who was a "buy once" guy. Unfortunately, he was also a "use once" guy. His interests changed quickly and he wasted a lot of money buying more quality than he ever saw benefit from. I think "buy once" only makes sense if it is for a long-term activity.

At the high end of the market, you can easily pay double for something that is 5% better. For some people, the extra 5% is worth it, and for others it isn't. It's the standard rule of diminishing returns.

arctos

Once I decided that bike touring was more than a one-off activity I then opted for what I evaluated as the best racks and panniers for my purposes based on design, materials and workmanship. That was over twenty five years ago and both have exceeded even my high expectations for performance and durability. I would make the same choice today.
Bruce Gordon racks and Robert Beckman Designs Panniers.

pvcrisp

Blackburn Expedition rack and Lone Peak Panniers from Wayne at The Touring Store are a great way to go, economical and sturdy

mkauffman

I broke my cheap stock rack on my 520 midtour. That said, I replaced it with another cheap rack.