divtag

Per my recent posts in the commuting section, I purchased an '08 Surly Cross Check from CL for $800. It was a lucky find in my size and the color that I liked (grey) more than the new color offerings. However, it was set up more as a racer, which I am not. I am closer to a Fred than a racer. My commute is short 3 1/2 miles each way. I plan to use the CC to commute, get groceries, grab a bite to eat, ride along the PCH and River Trail (20 miles for now, 50+ when I get into better shape), and I plan on getting into touring. Perhaps next summer I will tour from Vancouver back down to SoCal. I am thinking of also getting a second set of tires for basic MTB/trail riding.

Currently the gearing is 53-39 and 11-25, which I have gathered is for roadies. I don't know enough about it to know myself, except from what people on the forums have said and the fact that the lowest gear doesn't spin anywhere as easily as the lowest gear on my Rockhopper MTB. I want to know what a good setup would be, what I should look for, and the cost. Remembering that I have no intention of racing. However, I do plan on getting into shape to do long distance cycling.

Here are some pics of setup at time of purchase:







I ordered some MKS Touring lite pedals. So far I have the following tweaks in mind: flat bar cross brakes, Brooks B17, fatter tires (700 x23 cm right now. I am thinking 32 -38. However, on Mavic's site they say the CXP 22s only take up to 28, but one poster said he managed 32), and a wider handle bar with drops that aren't so low (Salsa Bell-Lap? or any other recommendations?).

I am looking for suggestions on what to do to make the bike more fred/commuter/touring friendly and less aggressive. Explain well because my knowledge of bikes is limited. In the past I have been of the, "just get on and ride" camp, and as long as the bike pedaled I was fine. I have never done anything more than change a flat. I haven't ridden much in 12 years and when I did, just rode old hand me down three size too big bike from my dad.

EmmCeeBee

From one Fred to another: Nice bike! Great price, good condition, and it sounds like it fits your purpose exactly.

Here's what I'd do to make it more Fred-worthy (commuting, shopping, longer rides)...

First of all, don't toss any components you have already. My basic approach would be to revamp the drivetrain and put on tour-worthy wheels. If you keep the current wheels/cassette, you could just swap the rear wheel -- current one for fast/flat rides, new one for trails/hills/touring.

Do these in stages, depending how much you want to spend all at once. Just like anything else, you can get good quality for low price; or 20% more quality for twice the price.

1) Cassette, chain, rear derailleur: $70 - $300. (Unfortunately, a larger cassette needs a long-cage derailleur, and they both need a longer chain.)

Get a wider-range cassette, say 11-32. Looks like a 9-speed on there? A 9-spd cassette will run $30 or less. (E.g. here).

Chain is about $20+ (example).

Derailleur.... what you have on there now is a short cage, limited to 27T (I believe...). You need a long-cage if you want touring gears (30T if you're not touring in the mountains, 32T or 34T if you value your knees...). Here's a good choice, but you can easily go for XT-quality at $100+.



2) Triple crank, front derailleur: $80 - $300. (Same as above, a triple crank needs a wider-range derailleur up front.) Possibly a new bottom bracket to make the chain line match? (With a triple crank, the chainrings are further from the bike frame, so the bottom bracket spindle has to match in order to keep the chain centered over the gears.)

You have an Octalink bottom bracket -- it's Shimano-specific (someone correct me if I'm wrong...) so you may be limited to Shimano cranksets. Too many variables here to go into, it's best to find out first if you need a new bottom bracket, this opens up other options.

In the interim, you can just put on smaller chainrings (e.g., 48/38 ?) and have lower gearing for Fred-riding. But when you get into touring, most would recommend a triple. (Hey, smaller chainrings means you might not need a new chain in #1, above!)

A good front derailleur can run as little as $15 (e.g., here), or as much as $100. A few decisions have to be made (up-swing, down-swing, number of teeth, etc.) so do some research first.


3) New wheels. Hey, you don't really need 'em.... but for loaded touring, why not get 36H. Then you can run an 11x32 cassette on the new ones, and keep the current wheels for non-Fred riding.

I don't know about the Mavics specifically, but check Sheldon Brown's website for tire-width guidance. If the Mavics fit 32's and you're happy with 'em, and you keep your touring load light, these wheels are fine.


It looks like the only other thing you really need is racks. Of course, I'm sure your wish list is a lot longer than that....

I put on Salsa Bell-lap handlebars, I much prefer the wider stance. If you need this for comfort, it's worth the expense. But unless you're itching to spend, I'd just wait on that, see how the whole thing rides and fits. It's too easy to buy parts that solve a non-existent problem; ride it for a while and you'll get a good idea what you need.

If you have a shop do the work, they'll certainly go with what parts they have, and the labor will triple these costs. All of this work is easy, with basic tools -- except possibly any bottom bracket work. But even then, $20 of tools and some research, and you can do it yourself. As others have recommended in the past, I'd go to Sheldon's website, and Park Tools and spend a few hours to become your own personal mechanic.

The parts I refer to above are at the low-end of cost, but are perfectly adequate for commuting and touring. You can easily spend 10 times those amounts, though, to get lighter weight and a 2% increase in reliability.

-- Mark

divtag

Mark thanks for the info, there is a lot there for me to research. I have 75 miles on the back (4-5 rides) and it is much nicer on pavement than the Rockhopper.

I inspected the bike some more this morning and came up with:

Rear: Shimano Ultegra RD 7700
Front: Shimano Dura Ace FC 7701
Barend Shifters: Shimano, say they work with RD 7700 or RD 7400
Brake Levers: Tektpro
Brakes: Shorty 4
Saddle: Some uncomfortable Specialized that came off of the previous owners Allez
Handlebars: I don't know
Wheels: Mavic CXP 22
Tires: Zapro Vittora 700x23 (skinnier than Keira Knightley)
Rack: I have a Topeak Explorer at the moment. Got it for Christmas, didn't fit on the MTB. It is part of their Quick release system. I have a Topeak DXP trunk bag, but it is too big. It won't fir under the seat. Nice pack though. Wish my dad had gotten it at REI so I could take it back for a smaller one.

EmmCeeBee

I'm not one to fall for Shimano's bling, but those are good shifters/derailleurs (if cost is any indication, anyway).

Shimano has a habit of marketing their components as matched sets -- hence "they work with RD7700..." But the truth is, the shifters will work with ANY Shimano rear derailleur (at least, any one made since 1990). Even a bottom-of-the-line (ack!!) Altus. The shifters are "speed-specific" (e.g., 8-speed, 9-speed, or 10-speed, say); but the rear derailleur isn't, it will work with any Shimano cogset or shifter.

You don't need new derailleurs unless you change the size of the cassette and/or chainrings. Which was my suggestion, above.

Some people say that the Avid Shorty 4 brakes tend to squeal. (But they still stop ) I wouldn't worry about it until you find out if they do, and if it's intolerable.

If it were me, I'd ride the sucker until the tires wear out, meanwhile find out about option #1 above (larger cassette, derailleur, chain). Get the full life out of the tires and by then you can decide what you need for #2 and #3 above.

Or for an immediate change in gearing before investing heavily in research and money, put on smaller chainrings. For example, it looks like you have 110/74 chainrings (i.e. the outer ring =110 BCD (bolt circle diameter), the inner =74 BCD). But don't trust my eyes, measure this to be sure (see Sheldon's website for help). You can get chainrings in different sizes ($15-$50), but they have to have the proper BCD for your crankset.

In a previous post, you were concerned about hunching over. Find out if you want to change the handlebar height or stem length before you worry about changing the handlebars. I always find this the most difficult part of tuning in a bike, not only is it a personal fit, but it differs on each bike. Changing handlebars can be trivial, but always involves a couple hours of wrapping/re-wrapping, setting up brake levers, shifters, etc. Plus, there's the chance that you might need longer cable housing, which is not trivial. I'd want to make darn sure I only did this once.

Good luck!

-- Mark

kayakdiver

I have some fred worthy cross brakes available(tektro AL720). Took them off my Jamis. Not my cup of tea. If your interested PM me.

Edit: Forget it. Looks like you have 31.8 OS bars.

mijome07

I'll be there this Friday to do 50 miles. Me and four of my cousins are planning to ride from Anaheim to (Old Town) San Diego next month. From there we'll take the Amtrak back. Gotta love Southern California Summers.

divtag

Actually the Cross Check has a pretty relaxed geometry. It is nothing like the road racer bikes. The LHT is supposed to be even better, I am going to have test ride one some day to see what it is like. The thing that I don't like about the bars is that they are not very wide and the drops are really low. However, that is less important than the drive train. The bars are no hurry.

If I swap out stuff as you suggested, would the parts I take off be able to be sold? They guy said the bike had less than 500 miles on it. The labor thing seems pricey, but I would hate to mess things up. Then again, maybe with the sites you suggested and the Ziin of Bike Maintenance book I could do it. I can fix computers in my sleep and build from scratch blindfolded, how hard could a bike be?

niknak

Unless you're patient on craigslist and ebay, you'll most likely end up spending more than the price you paid for that bike to morph it into a commuter/tourer. You're considering changing handlebars, saddle, rear wheel, cassette, derailleurs, tires, tubes, crankset, and bottom bracket. You'll also need to buy some tools to swap out some parts or pay a bike shop to remove/install things. This will quickly become a $1600 bike.

Another option is to sell the bike and pay a couple hundred more for a complete bike that really meets your needs. There are plenty of touring rigs from Trek, Cannondale, Surly, REI that will come more-or-less ready to do road rides/commute/tour.

There is definite value and satisfaction in learning how to repair/replace parts on a bike, but it'll cost you. Don't ask me how I know

sstorkel

I'd double-check this before making a purchase...

74mm BCD (= Bolt Circle Diameter) is typically used only on the small chainring of a triple chainring setup, isn't it? I think that most double chainring setups use the same BCD for both the inner and outer rings.

If the current chainrings are 53 and 39, they're almost certainly the road-standard 130mm BCD. If that's the case, your choices for replacement rings will be a bit limited. The smallest 130mm chainring I've seen is 38-teeth. If you want to go smaller, and you probably do, you'd typically need a "compact" crank (= 110mm BCD) or a road triple (130mm BCD for the outer and middle chainrings, 74m BCD for the inner). Obviously, switching to a triple crank will also require a new front derailleur and front shift lever.

My suggestion for the OP is: ride the 53/39 combo and see how it goes. If you find that there are hills you can't climb... do a bit of training and see if they get any easier. If not, think about buying a compact crank (50- & 34-tooth chainrings w/a 110mm BCD) and an 11-28 cassette. The gearing ends up being pretty close to what you'd get with a road triple (53/39/30 chainrings) and you won't need new derailleurs and shifters. I use this setup and think it works well for recreational cycling and riding with light (~10-15lb) loads. This setup allows me to climb just about any hill I'd care to ride up, though I did have to spend some time getting into shape first.

EmmCeeBee

Like I said, "Don't trust my eyes" . You're absolutely right, I spaced out without really looking at the photo...
I agree with all of this, and defer to others with more knowledge of components. But if the OP intends to use the bike for loaded touring, I think he'll either end up with a "compact triple", or wish he had. But for his other purposes, this makes the most sense.

And to the OP, 'niknak' is right, if cost is important be patient and wait for sales, otherwise it'll add up to more than you paid for the bike. You can keep cost down by using "good quality" instead of "best quality" for 5x the price. Others have had a lot of success by selling the take-off components.

Gears (cassettes and chainrings, as well as chains) wear out, so buying different size gears can be justified at some point anyway. Good (not "best") derailleurs can be found under $25. Crankset and bottom bracket could set you back big time, though. This would take a lot of thought to justify the cost.

-- Mark

divtag

I live in downtown HB, two blocks from the PCH. It is great for getting out and riding. I moved here in December, the last few years before that I lived in FV near the 405. I could just never get into riding in the suburban traffic environment. My rent is a fortune, but the downtown, the PCH, and SART just call out for an active lifestyle.

In April when I started to ride, instead of just every once in awhile, I could barely do 5 miles (roundtrip) without feeling like death. I thought about giving up, but there is a lot of nice things to look at on the beach trail. On Sunday, I did my longest ride yet ~24 miles. I rode from my house to the SART and rode up to Edinger. I almost died on the way back with the wind and could only do 6 miles today. Tomorrow I may try to ride to Seal Beach, have some breakfast, and come back.

I want to know how the San Diego trip goes. Ever since I got serious about riding, I have thought about this. Have you done it before? What is the ride like? What is the route? How does bringing the bike back work?

divtag

So, it is sounding like the bike was a bad purchase for what I want to do? Bummer. It was a lot of money, for me. I had only paid for one bike before, the Rockhopper off of CL for $260.

That is what I get for not knowing enough about bikes and components. The fit is good, but how is the bike a good deal if it isn't set up for the riding I do? I didn't know things didn't work together or weren't easy to swap out. I was nervous paying that much and now it seems I chose poorly. I thought I had the luck of the Irish finding the bike I wanted (I was planning on buying a new Cross Check) that was both the color and size I was looking for. Now it seems it was no luck at all.

sstorkel

Says who?!? You've purchased a fine bike that's good for quite a bit of stuff, including many of the things you said you wanted to do: "commute, get groceries, grab a bite to eat, ride along the PCH and River Trail".

Now if you want to ride the Everest Challenge or do a self-supported tour carrying 40lbs of stuff the length of the West Coast, then the gearing probably isn't ideal. Are you ready to do the Everest Challenge or ride 60-mile days carrying 40 additional pounds of gear? If not, you've got plenty of time to do some training to build up your strength and endurance... and to spend shopping for any upgrades you might need.

Enjoy your new bike; it's a nice one!

mijome07

Good for you. Just keep at it and like anything else, you'll get better. I started riding again in June 2007. I've done a handful of rides to the beach (i.e. 40's/50's/70 milers) as well as 30's-40's around the city and surrounding cities. I reside in the Inland Empire (Riverside to be exact).

I still haven't toured yet. I've never done the San Diego ride before. But I heard it's a nice ride. The Pacific Surfliner (Amtrak) has bike racks.

LeeG

you got a great bike. My $.02 is to get some 700x32-35 Pasela TG and don't change anything unless you can't ride up any hills with those gears. Don't get flat bars, it looks like those bars are pretty high already. Just ride the bike until you know what you want. If you can't get up hills in those gears don't go out and buy the same high end drive train. Get the cheapest touring/mtn bike derailleur for under $40 and cheap cassette with a larger cogs. Don't bother getting a new saddle unless that one just doesn't work for you.

Cave

Nice bike but if you really want different bars, drive train, wheels, tyres, gearing etc etc... surely you'd be better off buying the whole thing ready to go. Basically all you like about the bike is the frame!

divtag

I don't want flat bars, just wider so there is more room up top for my hands and cross levers. They are only 40 cm wide. It seems wider would also offer more control on downhills, trails, and with panniers loaded. I'll worry about that later, tires are my main concern. I have zero desire to ride 700x23. I was looking at wheels, I didn't know they were so expensive. I was thinking like a $100, not several hundred to over a thousand. Now I know.

It is a testament to the versatility of the CC frame that the previous owner setup for racing and it works perfectly fine for that, other have set it up for touring, others for commuting, others for offroad, etc. Quite a chameleon.

I just happened to see a 52 cm LHT on ebay. Seems it could be $800 to really dial the CC in over time. My imagination runs wild with the idea of having a second Surly for the same price. However, my savings and my stomach are not so wild about spending that much again. Then again, I was debating between a $1,600 quote for a LHT and $1,450 quote for a CC at the LBS and was going to buy before this CC came up on CL.

sstorkel

Have you tried riding 700x23? Or 700x28? I have to admit that even with thousand of miles under my belt, I can't tell any difference when moving from 700x23 to 700x25 or from 700x25 to 700x28 and only a slight difference when going from 700x23 to 700x28.

If I were you, I'd buy a set of 700x28 tires and tubes and give them a try. For loaded touring, you'd probably want a larger tire but for now 700x28 should be just fine...

icebiker76

You have a very nice bike. Replace stuff when it wears out. Go ride!

LeeG

Get some med. cost fatter tires and stop the shopping process as it appears you aren't exactly clear on what you're getting. Sure wider wider bars is nicer but not if your hands are on the tops and close together using cross levers. Don't bother with more levers. Keep Is Simple Sam. When I built up my cc. I bought some used bars from a bike shop for $20. Just put on some bigger tires,,the process for getting wheels is down the line and you'll only need a rear wheel.

divtag

The problem with the 700x23 is that it is scary on anything except smooth pavement. When it hits sand on the beach trail or when I go off onto the dirt or on some worn road the skinny tires are like walking a tight rope of death. That is how I can tell the difference on 700x23. If the manufacturer site says 23-28 on the wheels and I put 32s on, will it be dangerous? Like will they pop out from the wheel or anything? Will it be alright taking it off road with tires bigger than the wheel specs?

I was in the lowest gear possible this morning on the return trip against the wind going up a small hill. At some point I am going to have to remedy that. If the hill was bigger, like a real hill and I was carrying any weight I wouldn't make it. I am surprised that I like the barcons just fine. When I was going to buy new, I was going to shift to brifters, but so far no complaints. It is actually kind of nice because you can shift a lot of gears at once.

sstorkel

Unfortunately, sand sucks no matter what tires you have. My mountain bike has 26"x2.1" knobby tires and it still feels pretty sketchy on sand. I don't think that any 700c tire is going to work especially well in sand. If you're going to ride sand regularly, you might want to look for a Pugsley frame, Large Marge rims, and Endomorph 3.7" tires.

If your rims are spec'd for 700x28s I wouldn't attempt to fit a larger tire. Do you really want to take a chance of the tire failing when you're rolling downhill at 30mph? I wouldn't...

divtag

True, that is what I wasn't sure about. What the potential issues are with tires larger than manufacturer specs. As for the sand, it is just patches that come over the trail. It almost wiped me out, but so did uneven bumpy roads with ruts and I suspect gravel/dirt roads would be no fun with these super skinnies.

Anybody have any recommendations for solid and reasonably priced wheels? Preferrably something that will durable off road and when loaded. I'll hold off on the gearing for now and focus on the wheels/tire first.

mijome07

How exactly would your hands be closer? If my bike didn't have cross levers, my hands would still be in the same 'wide' position on the 'tops'.

crawdaddio

I'll give you $825.