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  1. #1
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    Heel clearance concerns

    Hey guys. I'm setting up my commuter with a rack to take a couple of ortlieb panniers for some light touring and just grocery runs etc. I'm pretty decided on a tubus racks, from reputation, and think I'll go with the luna (http://www.tubus.com/en/rear-carriers/luna). Now, before I go pressing any buy buttons on racks or bags, will I run into massive heel clearance issues?



    Obviously I'll need the QR adapter to get it on there at all, but I have a couple of niggling concerns:

    1. Will it even fit? It occurs to me the seat stays on my largish (61 ctt seat tube) bike are very steep, moving the brake bridge rearward, and kind of tight with regards to the 13.6cm of room required forwards of the vertical line above the mount for the luna...

    2. Assuming it mounts will I hit my (size 46) heels on some back roller classics? I'd say that the furthest back my heel will go with look pedals and my road shoes is around 1-1.5 inches forward of the seat stay, about 1/3rd up, if that makes any sense haha.

    3. Would using front rollers and a rack pack when need be alleviate this risk at all?

    4. Assuming front rollers offer to improvement, how far back can I move the back rollers from the centre line of the rack, and how much of an angle can I place them at before I run into other problems? this guy seems to have taken it to a fair extreme:
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Jz4f840sc_...h/IMGP2612.JPG

    is that sort of thing possible with the QL1 system found on the classic or would I have to step it up to the plus to get QL2?
    Last edited by lachy94; 10-27-09 at 06:50 AM.

  2. #2
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    You don't seem to have mentioned the crucial parameter, namely chainstay length. They look short but an actual measurement will be better.

    If they are short, FWIW I'd say forget panniers and get a trailer. By the time you've bought two racks and four bags, your costs will be about the same, and the trailer will be easier to use and set up.

  3. #3
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    This would likely solve both problems of heel strike and no braze ons. Axiom Streamliner rack, mounts via your axle or skewer and brake bolt


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    I wonder if you need the volume of rear panniers. Could you do just as well with any kind of rack and a large seatbag sitting on the rack right behind your thighs and small front panniers on a Tubus Tara or other front rack options to carry panniers?

    It doesn't look like you can get very fat tires on there which would imply a limited load carrying capability on the rear wheel for touring our getting groceries.

    For touring you can utilize that huge triangle for a frame bag(s), a rear rack with things piled up under your seat and some combination of front end carrier depending on the type of fork and load.

    I'd get the rack, front rollers , frame bags and consider putting the panners on the front if the fork is up to it.

    I'm starting to appreciate frame bags for everyday use but it depends on the design. I've got a Jandd frame bag that fits fine on my 26" tourer but not as well on the 700c bikes becuase their head tubes are shorter.

    http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FFP

    http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/?page_id=4

    I could see one of those epic frame bags being usefull for a tall road frame like yours in order to get weigh inboard.
    Last edited by LeeG; 10-27-09 at 11:50 AM.

  5. #5
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    If I had any concern about racks or panniers I would call Wayne at thetouringstore.com. He has a sale if you call him by 6:00 p.m. (MDT) tonight, and he knows more than the people that make them about fit, adapters, racks, etc.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the reponses guys!

    ou don't seem to have mentioned the crucial parameter, namely chainstay length. They look short but an actual measurement will be better.

    If they are short, FWIW I'd say forget panniers and get a trailer. By the time you've bought two racks and four bags, your costs will be about the same, and the trailer will be easier to use and set up.
    The chainstays measure 41cm ctc, is that technically short?

    And the touring I'm planning directly involves flying from melbourne to launceston, so while a trailer may be practical for a lot of touring it won't be for me right now

    I wonder if you need the volume of rear panniers. Could you do just as well with any kind of rack and a large seatbag sitting on the rack right behind your thighs and small front panniers on a Tubus Tara or other front rack options to carry panniers?

    It doesn't look like you can get very fat tires on there which would imply a limited load carrying capability on the rear wheel for touring our getting groceries.

    For touring you can utilize that huge triangle for a frame bag(s), a rear rack with things piled up under your seat and some combination of front end carrier depending on the type of fork and load.
    I *think* I'll want the volume, I'm planning on being away from home for around 2 weeks, so I'll need a few changes of clothes, tent, sleeping bag, fishing rod, trangia, I'm not sure if the front rollers would do it. Also for the grocery shopping down the line having big bags means I can just take one to the shop, and hence only have to carry one around, whereas I'll be carting two smaller front rollers if I go the other route.

    The frame bag looks like a good idea, maybe not the full triangle option, but I might look into a smaller one to up my storage if need be, so thanks!

    As the the tyre size, I can probably fit up to 28mm on the Mavic Open 4 CDs, how big do you think is necessary for a reasonable touring load?

    And that Axiom rack looks like it could really be the ticket, and it's quite cheap too! good find. Does anyone have any more info or opinions on it? or pictures of it in use? I'm sightly skeptical about something mounted right onto the QR claiming to take 50kg , and I'm also curious about the size of it, one good thing about tubus is their site has the schematics of all the racks

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    you sure aren't going to be putting an extra 50kg on the rear wheel so that's moot. 28mm can suffice for 200lb rider and 25lbs of gear on good roads, you have to keep the pressure up, just find a tire with strong sidewalls. Two Ortlieb front rollers can carry a lot of stuff. My suggestion to moving weight forward relates to your weight, if you're 200lbs instead of 175 you'll have a lot more pinch flats on the rear wheel if you're carrying a lot of weight on the rear wheel. Moving weight forward will take a lot of stress of the rear tire.

  8. #8
    Blocking your fire exits coffeecake's Avatar
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    Looks like you have racing or track geometry there rather than touring. Boyfriend has 44.5 cm chainstays with size 11 US feet; he has slight heel strike problem. Without braze-ons your carrying capacity is going to be somewhat limited.
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  9. #9
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    41cm chainstays are pretty short for touring - LHT is 46cm, for example.

    I wear 45 shoes, and I clear my bags by 2.5cm on my LHT. So, I expect you'll have heel strike based on your stated size 46 shoes.

    If you move the rack rearwards (with QR mount adaptors), and/or mount bag further back on rack, this will alleviate heel strike.

    Then you may have a bigger problem: poor bike handling. Moving weight back behind the axle, and high (like the rail of rack where bags mount, or extras on top of rack) is a good way to induce shimmy. If you've never experienced shimmy, then you should know it is an alarming, temporary loss of control of bike handling/steering, and sometimes actually results in a crash.

    A previous poster mentioned front panniers as an alternative, which is a good idea. No heel strike, fewer handling issues, plus helps prevent overloading rear wheel and distributes load more evenly. A typical bike is loaded 40/60-30/70 F/R before you even add luggage. Just a little load on the rear rack can make it 20/80 or worse. This is why a front tire typically lasts as long as 2-4 rear tires.

  10. #10
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    Folks coming from road riding usually don't like front panniers because is does slow down handling significantly but the load on a dished rear wheel is already so great that it makes sense to move some forward onto the front wheel.

  11. #11
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    Your desire to take along a tent, sleeping bag, fishing pole, trangia, etc. tends to move you from the "light touring" to the "loaded touring" category. That might not be quite the right bike for that. Also your gearing looks not favorable for carrying much of a load if there are any hills where you will be riding.

    However, that's not to say it can't be done, but you'll have to pick and choose very carefully to get it all on there. You'll have to chose some of the lightest, smallest equipment you can find in regards to tent and sleeping bag. and be quite creative in packing it all onto the bike.

    Personally, I'd forget about rear panniers and consider the following:

    Rear rack pack or large seat pack (Carradice, Camper, Nelson or similar. I like my Carradice SQR Slim)

    Handlebar Bag or rando bag mounted on a front rack. One possiblilty is the Epic Designs Alaska Handlebar bag, which is designed to hold a sleeping bag or small tent in a stuff sack (make sure to get the roadie version if you have drop bars)

    Frame Pack: I'd go with the Jandd Frame pack that mounts to the front of the bike, as one that mounts to the rear of the frame will likely prevent you from using the rear waterbottle cage.

    Front Panniers: The largest fronts that I know of are the Arkel GT-18 with a total for a pair of 36L of space. Personally, I'd never go that big, as it would just encourage carrying more stuff. The Arkel T-28 or Carradice Universal Fronts (both 28L) should be plenty.

    If you need to carry more than what all that will hold, you're way past what your bike is realistically capable of touring with.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member bobframe's Avatar
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    My Co-Motion's chain stays are 45cm. I wear a 48-50 shoe and have no problem clearing Ortlieb bags. The difference between our chain stays is 4cm (~1.6"). Based on that I would think you could clear a rear bag- not by much though. Also, crank length would be a factor- mine are 175mm, which would allow the heel to move further back than a 170-172.5mm crank.

  13. #13
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    you sure aren't going to be putting an extra 50kg on the rear wheel so that's moot. 28mm can suffice for 200lb rider and 25lbs of gear on good roads, you have to keep the pressure up, just find a tire with strong sidewalls. Two Ortlieb front rollers can carry a lot of stuff. My suggestion to moving weight forward relates to your weight, if you're 200lbs instead of 175 you'll have a lot more pinch flats on the rear wheel if you're carrying a lot of weight on the rear wheel. Moving weight forward will take a lot of stress of the rear tire.
    Conveniently, despite being tall enough to need such a large frame, I'm only 175

    41cm chainstays are pretty short for touring - LHT is 46cm, for example.

    I wear 45 shoes, and I clear my bags by 2.5cm on my LHT. So, I expect you'll have heel strike based on your stated size 46 shoes.
    Assuming I use the axiom rack above, which mounts the rack 4cm back from the QR, an artificial increase of chainstay length of about 3-4cm, I would have a 'chainstay length' of 44-45cm. If a LHT has 46 and you clear by 2.5 with shoes I presume to be around 1cm shorter than mine, shouldn't I still just clear? I'm not critiquing your logic, I'm just trying to work this all out :twitch:.. how far rearward are your panniers mounted? seems like if you've that clearance I'd be moving or angling them backwards at most a couple of cm, which shouldn't be too bad I'd have thought, something broadly like this:

    http://www.thebikebiz.com/v/vspfiles...CK-AXI01-7.jpg

    I'm not completely dismissing the front rack option, but I lack the necessary eyelets there also, and I am slightly more concerned about the effects of a front rack on handling, especially with my quite steep headtube... not to mention the increase in drag

  14. #14
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    Your desire to take along a tent, sleeping bag, fishing pole, trangia, etc. tends to move you from the "light touring" to the "loaded touring" category. That might not be quite the right bike for that. Also your gearing looks not favorable for carrying much of a load if there are any hills where you will be riding.
    I do plan on getting the lightest stuff, by and large, I am by necessity of travelling on a plane only going to be taking probably 10kg worth of stuff, excluding the food I buy once I land. As for the gearing, that is a concern for me I will test the bike out on some hills once I've got the necessary bags to fill with some load. Not much chance of a bigger cassette (suntour SL), but I'll probably pop on a smaller small ring at the front.

  15. #15
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    My rear bags are mounted as forward as possible on a Tubus Cargo rack, for handling sake. In this position, the center of gravity of my rear bags are ~3cm behind the axle. I could slide them rearwards maybe 2cm, not sure.

    These will fit any fork if you are willing to do a little work:
    http://www.bikebagshop.com/omm-sherp...ck-p-1128.html

    Regarding drag, I think the front bags would actually "hide" your legs better than your legs would hide rear bags.
    Last edited by seeker333; 10-27-09 at 05:46 PM.

  16. #16
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    just for arguments sake if you moved the bags back some 6cm would they be significantly behind the axle?

    actually scratch that, probably more like 4cm back, to allow for clearance to *just* happen

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lachy94 View Post

    I'm not completely dismissing the front rack option, but I lack the necessary eyelets there also, and I am slightly more concerned about the effects of a front rack on handling, especially with my quite steep headtube... not to mention the increase in drag
    Old Man Mountain's Ultimate Lowrider mounts to your skewer, no eyelets needed.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lachy94 View Post
    just for arguments sake if you moved the bags back some 6cm would they be significantly behind the axle?

    actually scratch that, probably more like 4cm back, to allow for clearance to *just* happen
    Not possible for me. I edited my post without seeing your response, anticipating the question.

    I think you're going to have problems if you try to carry much of a load on the rear of that frame.

  19. #19
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    ok, so I'm beginning to accept that I might need to have a front lowrider with some panniers. So:

    1. Is there anything cheaper around for a fork with no eyelets than that OMM option? I can pick up a fork with eyelets and a more generic front rack for less than I can get that shipped to Australia.

    2. Any good shops for a jandd frame pack? Seems like a pretty easy pace to get an additional 3L storage. How accessible would this be for riding? could I fill it with may various snack?

    3. If I got ahead and fit an axiom streamliner, which I can leave on permanently as a shopping/low load rack in the future how much junk (ie tents, sleeping bags) can I attach to a slim rack like that?

    I'm thinking of the front roller classics on a low rider for 25L, 3L in the frame pack, possibly an ultimate 5 large bag for ~8L, and then thinks like tent posts running on the sides of the rear rack. Would a slim rack like that get a small size ortlieb rack pack to fit strapped on longways?

  20. #20
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    Wow, you're planning on touring two weeks in Tasmania with road bike gearing, double chainring etc? I urge you to reconsider Assuming you live in melbourne, try talking to Abbotsford Cycles, they're good on this stuff, and won't try and sell you a new bike.

    If you're buying Ortlieb, I suggest wiggle.co.uk - very cheap with the strong australian dollar, and there's a $20 paypal cashback promotion too.

    Also, not sure why you need such an expensive rear rack as Jandd, Tubus or OMM. The Topeak Super Tourist DX is $60 aud and works really well, and if you ever get a topeak rack bag, it's gold.

    Lastly, I have an epic frame bag, and it's great, but the turn around time is very long, like 3 months from "yes I want one" to "yes it's on my bike". Somehow it doesn't hold quite as much as you expect, though...

  21. #21
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    Oh also I meant to ask: wouldn't taking the ferry be more convenient?

  22. #22
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    well, I'm not actually riding two weeks, I'm riding like 4 days haha, but I need the equipment to be there for 2 weeks worth all up. I'm meeting others there (at the falls festival) and driving around afterwards. However, I need to be bringing almost all my kit with me personally, as I'll be solo a few days. Hiking boots my girlfriend will help me out with, and while I listed a fishing it rod it will most likely come with her too in reality, but tent, sleeping bag + mat, trangia, most of the few clothes I'll bring, cycling kit, some casual shoes etc need ot be with me

    Ortliebs will come from wiggle or pbk, yes, MUCH cheaper than in shops here.

    I don't really want a tubus/OMM rack at all, certainly not for a front rack I'll probably only use when I'm touring. If I decide on a front rack I will indeed take a trip to abbotsford cycles I think and buy a chromed steel fork with mounts from them for $40 or something, so that I can just get whatever for up front.

    While I have the time to wait for an epic bag, I think that it would be a hassle to be concerned about not getting it, and they seem to be largish; I still want my bottle mounts to be there, I think the jandd is a perfect size for just a bit of extra storage in a novel place, and it would make a good little errand running bag so I don't need a shoulder bag

    and the ferry would be more convenient, but a LOT more expensive haha, and how it's worked out I'll fly into launceston and out of hobart, after stashing my bike in hobart at a friends for a few days, so it's better all round.

    edit; oh and yes, the gearing is absurd, like early 90s what were the japanese thinking absurd haha, 52-42(!) at the front, 12-27 at the rear I think (or 12-25, need to check again), figure I'll just throw on the two smallest chainrings that will fit the bcd
    Last edited by lachy94; 10-27-09 at 11:23 PM.

  23. #23
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    Geez, the ferry _is_ expensive. At cheapest, it's $95, plus $7 for the bike. OTOH, don't the airlines charge ridiculous amounts for bikes these days?

  24. #24
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    I agree about the Epic Frame Packs v. the Jandd. But considering your situation, the Epic Handlebar bag might just be what the doctor ordered.

    Sample Packing:

    On rear rack: tent with shoes tied down on each side of tent (there may actually be room for shoes in either the carradice or the panniers, but this gives you an option if not)

    Carradice Saddle bag: cycling kit, tools, lock, etc. Tied on top of bag:sleeping mat (I use a foam Ridge Rest, it weighs nothing so it can be up high without ruining the handling, but is a bit bulky, but on top of the bag is just fine for it.)

    Frame pack: wallet, camera, snacks, phone, batteries, gloves etc.

    Handlebar pack: Sleeping bag, rain gear, etc. (you don't want anything too heavy up that high)

    Front panniers:
    Clothing, trangia, food, etc. (try to put the heaviest stuff low and balance the load on both sides)

    You should have plenty of extra capacity, I would think.

    If you can source a new fork with eyelets and a lowrider rack locally for less than the OMM would cost to get shipped in, I'd probably go that direction.
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    One thing occurs to me Regarding the frame pack, I have downtube shifters, is that a no go?

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