arctos

I used the the original MSR XGK for 30 years without mechanical problems on kayak and bike tours and backpacking/ XC skiing in winter. When solo traveling I used the Trangia. When the XGK was so worn out that it could not be resurrected by MSR I too tried the Dragonfly and immediately twice had pump problems as Erik mentioned.

I compared my old XGK pump with the Dragonfly and noted how thin the Dragonfly version was. I commented about this at customer service at REI and with MSR customer service on the phone. Each tech mentioned that this was a known design flaw that would be corrected soon. Apparently that has not happened.

I have reverted to my now 45 year old Trangia system and other alcohol stove(Brasslite) and avoid this hassel and uncertainty while on a trip. I have always liked the simplicity and noiseless aspect of the alcohol stoves over the blowtorch roar of the MSR XGK and Dragonfly.

rodar y rodar

I wouldn`t expect much maintenance for a white gas stove either (except, apparently, the Dragonfly pumps). My one and only camp stove for years was one of those little Colemans with the integrated fuel tank (M 442?) and the only time I ever had to do anything maintenance to it was after I cooked a pork chop directly on the burner in an emergency. I`ve also flooded it a few times by over filling (it`s hard to see what`s going on through that little fill cap). Whenever it flooded, it cured itself after a couple hours. I used white gas for the most part, ran out a few times and used it with gasoline with no noticeable ill effects.

I started using a very simple homebrew alcohol stove this spring and I plan to continue using it except the rare occasions when I`m with another person. Yes, alcohol gives less heat per ounce than petroleum fuels, but the biggest advantage is that you can get it in 12 oz bottles from most gas stations, auto parts stores, supermarkets, or whatever. That means never having to carry more than a little bottle and not worrying if you`ve got enough. I suppose which ultimately weighs more depends greatly on your style of camping. Next on the list of alcohol bonuses is that neither my hands or my gear end up smelling like a Shell station. The other bennies are pretty much machts nicht for me.

Rowan

I maintain the most significant issue for me in the *design* of the full-blown Trangia is the stability of its base.

And FWIW, the main Trangia I use has the facility to use either a propane/butane or gasoline burner. If you are an expeditioner in countries where fuel sources are uncertain, popping the appropriate paraphenalia in to cover all bases -- with a very secure base -- would seem to solve all problems.

Juha

Depends on how "cold" we're talking about. An alcohol stove will cook slowly in winter, but it beats a frozen gas canister any day. I've seen experienced users pre-heat gas canister with candle flame to make it work. I'm sure it's safe if you know what you're doing, but it kind of freaked me out.

Different strokes etc. My routine involves two pots and a pan. I cook the meal in first pot, using the pan as a lid to make it cook quicker. While I eat the food (from the pot), I put another pot with water on stove, again with the lid. By the time I've finished the meal, I have boiling water for a cup of tea + dishes, and no fuel left in the burner. By the time I've had my tea and washed the meal pot, the burner will have cooled down and is ready for packing. None of this is required, I would be equally well fed with just one pot, it's just my personal preference.

I have a gas burner for the Trangia as well, but it gets little use, mainly because of the noise. It is far more effective though, except in extreme cold, and a lot easier to simmer.

--J

zoltani

I ditched my white gas stove cause I'm not really into carrying gallon containers of fuel or wasting the +3 liters that I wouldn't fit in a fuel bottle. Besides, the trangia is simple, effective, and it fits just fine in my front pannier, and even easier in a rear one!

stevage

>but the biggest advantage is that you can get it in 12 oz bottles from most gas stations, auto parts stores, supermarkets, or whatever. That means never having to carry more than a little bottle and not worrying if you`ve got enough.

Yeah, that's a good point. With butane, once the bottle gets low, you either have to carry two bottles (and either dispose of one or carry it empty if you're somewhere remote - thinking of hiking here), or just abandon the fuel and start a new bottle.

In practice I've found the biggest nuisance is not being able to carry it on flights. I always have to abandon the bottle at an airport long before using it up.

tjwarren

And, alcohol dissolves in water. So, if you're travelling on a plane you just wash your burner out with water (leaving no fuel residue). You can also extinguish the flame with water. When you want to relight, it's no big deal if a little water is still in the reservoir -- it'll mix with the alcohol and burn off. You'll have a slightly cooler flame while it burns off, but it won't clog.

Niles H.

It seems that bad experiences with a product can put some people off a whole product line.

It seems to go the other way too, at times.

I've had nothing but great experiences with MSR and their products, with the exception of the noise of the XGK stoves.

The Whisperlite and Whisperlite International (formerly Internationale) are much quieter than the XGK and Dragonfly. They are also more compact than the Dragonfly, and appear to have a more reliable pump design. If anyone wants a wider range of experiences and reviews of the Whisperlite International and its reliability, they can be found on backpacking gear review sites.

***
I was using alcohol stoves, and thought I would do a side-by-side comparison with the Whisperlite International. Up to that point, I had used both (alternately and separately, on different tours), and was on the fence -- there were things I liked about both approaches (and canister stoves as well).

The conversion came when I actually saw the flames side-by-side. The Whisperlite had a very strong, robust, and adjustable flame. The metal near the flame was glowing a healthy bright orange. The alcohol stove's flame looked so anemic -- especially when it was sitting right there next to the Whisperlite (this close juxtaposition made a much stronger impression than when the stoves were used separately) -- that I was converted.

I still like the silence and the meditative atmosphere that can go with alcohol stoves, and might still use them occasionally. But in general, the Whisperlite and other quiet multi-fuel stoves have advantages that tip the scales in their favor.

With the alcohol stoves -- even though there are things I like about them -- I don't like the lack (or relative lack) of flame adjustability. At times, I don't like the slowness (though if you are not in a hurry, or if you otherwise don't mind it, it can be fine -- but you don't have to be in a hurry with a stove that has more power either). I like the option of being able to get much more heat output if I want it.

I don't like the way you have to guesstimate the amount of alcohol to add, and I don't like it when the flame goes out before the cooking is finished (though it's possible to get better at these things with experience). I don't like the waste that sometimes occurs. I like having a knob and a valve to use. I don't usually like the long wait times when larger pots are used.

I like having a larger fuel reservoir so it isn't necessary to open and pour fuel so often.

I like the cleanliness of the alcohol, though -- both in its fluid form, and while burning it (the fumes are less annoying, even though they aren't non-toxic). On the other hand, a well-tuned white gas stove burns pretty cleanly, and the gas is well contained.... So it isn't a major issue.

***
As far as buying gallons of white gas goes: sometimes it is fine -- it depends on the length of the tour and the circumstances. It's easy to take enough for a weeklong tour and leave the rest of the gallon at home, for example. And it can work out fine in other cases too.

Also, there are ways around buying it by the gallon. I've seen it in smaller sizes at times, and there are other fuels that can be used. Some of the solvents carried by paint stores and in the paint departments of building supply stores can be used. Some are cleaner than others (naphtha is sold by many of these stores, and it is relatively clean). Small amounts of white gas can sometimes be happily bought from car campers and RVers. If you are traveling in a group, a gallon can be split up. Gasoline and other fuels can be bought in variable amounts (although most of these fuels are definitely not the first choice, it can be very nice to have the option open; and on certain tours and in certain situations it is a useful option to have. Gas stations are pretty common and widely available. The option can be exercised only occasionally, as needed or if needed). Victor Weinreber explains the reasoning behind his choice of a multi-fuel stove on his cg journal. Some people are fine with gasoline, and it's amazingly cheap if you can learn to live with it.

Primus makes some excellent multi-fuel stoves, but I don't know how they compare with the Whisperlite in noise. Those noisier stoves (like the XGK, the Dragonfly, and some others) use a different technology or principle for the burner/jet system, and they can sound a bit like a little jet engine. I can stand them, but some people are fine with them.

So I would want to know more about the noise level of the Primus multi-fuel stoves.

***
When comparing the expense of white gas (or other fuels used in multi-fuel stoves) with the expense of alcohol, the comparison should not really be done on a per-volume (or a per-quart or -liter or -gallon) basis. It should be done on a per-weight basis, and the price comparison should factor in the BTUs/pound. It should also factor in any significant differences in stove efficiency. Longer cooking times usually mean more heat loss and fuel wastage. And the purity of the fuel should be factored in as well.

Also, there are some ultra-efficient multi-fuel stoves and pots (with heat exchangers) out now. Primus and MSR both have them.

Heat exchangers can also be used with alcohol stoves to boost the efficiency significantly.

***
BTUs/pound for naphtha (similar to white gas): approx. 18,200

BTUs/pound for methanol: approx. 8419

BTUs/pound for gasoline: approx. 18,720

BTUs/pound for ethanol: approx. 11,570

More information at https://zenstoves.net/Fuels.htm

Most of the available and lower-priced alcohols, including those used in alcohol stoves, are not 100% alcohol. Many are 70-90%. That should also be factored into price comparisons. Many of the alcohols contain a fair percentage of water.

Taking these factors into account, most alcohols used in alcohol stoves wouldn't reach even 50% of the BTUs/pound of white gas and the other fuels used by multi-fuel stoves. Sometimes they wouldn't even be close to 50%. So even if the price per gallon were the same for the alcohols and Whisperlite International fuels (which is usually not the case -- the alcohols are usually more expensive per gallon or per liter), the alcohols would still be much more expensive to use.

Some of these stoves can also burn diesel fuels, and some may be able to burn biodiesel fuels and canola oils as well. They are very versatile and adaptable, and this can be useful on some tours.

Niles H.

This might be of interest to some,

Naphtha is a term relating to a range of hydrocarbons used as solvents or feedstock for petroleum products. For purposes of categorizing fuels for stoves, "naphtha" is used to include all naphtha and gasoline-like fuels that have been refined to be as aromatic and additive free as practical for stove use. This is a much "cleaner" stove fuel than other petroleum products (except possibly the liquefied gases) so it is less likely to clog stoves. It is also considered by many to be the best fuel for high altitude and extremely cold treks. It evaporates quickly, is quite volatile, burns very hot, and leaves little residue compared to kerosene. Naphtha requires a lot of oxygen to burn and therefore may be a little easier to extinguish than other petroleum fuels. Naphtha is much more explosive than kerosene but is a bit less explosive than gasoline. This fuel category might be slightly less toxic than gasoline but is still very caustic, and releases an unpleasant odor that lingers.

Naphtha is a mix of 5 to 9 carbon alkanes with a boiling range of 104 to 401°F (40 to 205°C). The term "naphtha" has several accepted and obsolete definitions and can even be inclusive of gasoline and kerosene.

For international touring with a multi-fuel stove (or with an alcohol stove), this site has some potentially useful information:

https://members.iinet.net.au/~mbuckler/fuel/index.shtml

Erick L

I've used a friend's Whisperlite and I wouldn't call the flame adjustable by any means, and I never read a review saying it is. I've had their Alpine cookset which is fine but pricey for a simple stainless steel cookset. Then I had a Blacklite cookset, one of the worst piece of **** I've ever owned.

Niles H.

Sorry, that is just falsehood. The flame is quite adjustable, and that is a simple fact that can be verified by anyone who has a Whisperlite or Whisperlite International available for testing.

If MSR stoves are so bad, why are they the first choice of a number of serious expeditions and experienced military units? And why are they the first choice of people who have much more experience with them than you?

And I doubt if that's really the worst piece you've ever owned. I'm sure it isn't.

***
The OP seems interested in the Whisperlite stoves.

Most people don't hate MSR the way a very few seem to. A few people just have a problem with hating things. And in fact, there are a lot of people (virtually all I have come across) who have had great experiences with many of their products, and appreciate the opportunity to use them.

I'll find a few reviews of the Whisperlites, in case anyone would like some less one-sided, less biased, more thorough reviews, and more extensive testing and experiences.

porter

We have loved using our spirit burning Trangia (25 or 27 series) so much over the last couple of years and approximately 150 days of cycle tour camping that I have decided to buy the multi-fuel burner accessory for when we head south from the USA into Mexico and central/south America where methylated spirits are not widely available.

This accessory is definitely not cheap but should work with our current Trangia cook set. I've got it sitting in the box in front of me and it looks well built. After I have used it for awhile I'll report back - there isn't a lot of information online about them.

I decided to go with he Trangia multi-fuel burner rather than get a completely new stove because everyone I know has had really good experiences with Trangia products (I hope this continues...)!

Niles H.

There are quite a few concise reviews of the Whisperlite International here:

https://www.thebackpacker.com/gear/st...ernational.php

https://www.spgear.org/gear/70/whispe...ional-600.html

https://www.amazon.com/MSR-Whisperlit...DateDescending

Erick L

I've tried one and the flame wasn't adjustable. My friend couldn't believe how nice the flame control was on my old Coleman. I've read about one guy who managed to make one simmer with "a lot turning off and on". Take a look at backbackgeartest.com, simmering a Whisperlite is invariably in the cons. When you try a stove with real flame control, you might change your mind. The Dragonfly does simmer extremely well, but has other issues.

I don't think they're so bad, but overhyped. "Serious expeditions" use freeze-dried food. MSR stoves are good for boiling water. I don't question the reliability of the Whisperlite and XGK. Having used white gas that could simmer, I never understood why MSR were so popular among hobbyists. I think they have expedition thing in their favor while Coleman was being tagged as car-camping gear.

Look here: https://www.thebackpacker.com/gear/ot...e_cookware.php

There's a reason they came up with a "Dura"lite cookset afterwards (at twice the price).

Niles H.

All anyone has to do to find out the truth of the adjustability and simmering issues is to read through the reviews cited above, or try out the techniques described in person.

Bekologist

the only time i didn't like my alcohol stove is when i forgot and brought it out on a winter bike tour..... i had to melt snow for water and it took quite a bit of time for the evening kettle.

otherwise, LOVE em. for high altitude I've used Svea white gas stoves for decades. I used to test gear for MSR and liked their stoves just fine.

the whisperlite can simmer it just isn't designed that way so requires a constant futzing with the valve and pump. alcohol stoves simmer much better and allow time to monkey around with non stove stuff like reading, setting up, looking at maps, etc.

andrewh

Mate, you and I think alike. In fact, all the way around Australia and then from the top of Alaska to Mexico I thought exactly that, but after trying a Wisperlight the Trangia, with all of my "hates" won out. We used the multi-fuel burner as well and it was fabulous- until it broke. I am now looking to get a new burner, but the Trangia- I will keep it for all touring, weight and size and all.
Regards, Andrew

cyccommute 

If you have a frozen propane/butane canister, there's a lot more you have to worry about than eating. Propane (and butane) freeze at around -190C. I don't know about you, but I kinda quite touring when the temperatures dip into the 40 F range. The boiling point of butane is around OC but that's still a little cold for my tastes. And it's not much of an issue at altitude.

I agree with you on more than one pot. Sometimes you want more to eat than what you can cook in a single pot. Rice, for example, is a bit difficult to cook with other stuff.

Wogster

To get a frozen cannister is quite easy, even at relatively warm temperatures, due to a rule of physics. As pressure increases, temperature increases, as pressure decreases, so does temperature. So you take a new cannister, it will have equalized it's temperature with the outside world. Now as you use the cannister the pressure is reduced, the lower the gas in the cannister, the lower the pressure, it's therefore fairly easy to get that temperature to several degrees below freezing, the air around the cannister condenses it's moisture onto the cannister since it cools, which, then freezes onto the very cold cannister. It's fine if your cooking an evening meal and you can let the cannister thaw out before packing in the morning. Lots of people like their morning diesel f... coffee, so they fire up the stove in the morning to do so, the cannister freezes and you now have a block of ice to pack, that will be dripping all day. If you can switch cannisters and only use relatively full ones in the morning, this resolves the problem.

White gas stoves are fully pressurized with the pump, and shouldn't lose much pressure, so they don't have this problem. Alcohol stoves are only pressurized when running, so they don't either.

Bekologist

If i am able to visit a grocery store in the afternoon, I pick up some rolls, cheese sticks, and small pack of lunchmeat to make an easy filling meal once arriving at a campsite.

I boil some tea in a pot on a trangia and toast afternoon cheese and pastrami or turkey sandwiches in a covered pan stacked atop the tea water.

The sandwiches toast up, the tea water gets hot, and enjoy while setting up camp.

AsanaCycles

my personal view with alcohol stoves:

1. I like that they don't hiss, like a whisper light, or any other stove.
2. they are easy to make
3. Heet lasts a long time, and its found in most auto parts stores

they are kind of like glorified sterno cans
you can get all fancy when making one
but really, its kind of like, whats the point.
i was on a kick where i'd just pull a can out of a trash can and use it for a stove.

i also have a Packafeather stove, which is super fancy

https://www.packafeather.com/stove.html

actually its pretty funny
the thing about stoves
go round and round, buy how many of them
and often times it so amazingly simple
to simply not even cary a stove.

its amazingly simple to gather some twigs, use your hands to make a small depression in the ground, and go for it.

I've had plenty of stoves
and it always makes me laff how caught up i've been with cooking.

there are so many easy ways.

currently my favorite is this little stove.

cyccommute 

You can cool the canister (see Joule-Thomson effect). You can even cool it enough to condense and freeze atmospheric moisture on the outside of the canister. Condensing moisture on the outside of the canister actually warms the canister (heat of condensation puts heat back into the system). The condensed moisture (or frost) is a transient phenomenon.

Condensed moisture on the outside of the canister or even ice on the outside of the canister does not equal a frozen canister. When some one says that the canister is 'frozen', that means that the liquid inside has solidified. The temperature needed to do that can't be reached by the Joule-Thomson effect with the amount of liquefied gas contained in the canister just by releasing it through a valve. If you could cool the canister to -190C (liquid nitrogen is -196C), you could make the material inside the canister solid. But without really good insulation and continued cooling, you couldn't keep it there...not easily anyway.

I've used butane/propane canisters extensively for camp cooking. At no point have I ever had "a block of ice to pack, that will be dripping all day". Even when using only partially filled canisters.

The pressure differential between a white gas stove and atmosphere isn't that great. The Joule-Thomson effect is greater when the pressure differential is greater. The canisters do cool as the white gas is used but not too much. You also aren't going from a compressed liquid to gas. The fuel in a white gas stove is liquid and is only vaporized at the stove. That's why you have to prime them.

Alcohol stoves aren't pressurized at all. As far as I can tell they are mass burners, i.e. just a burning pool of liquid.

AsanaCycles

glorified sterno can

somehow i've come to like it
but my environ isn't +10k ft and snow

Wogster

Considering the temperature required, even the inner parts of the Arctic circle, get anywhere near cold enough to solidify the contents of a cannister of gas, although for people who live in those areas it may seem like it I think what most people mean by a frozen cannister is that it's covered in ice, and has little pressure left, and heating it slightly will increase the pressure enough, that it may finish the job.

Most white gas stoves also use a liquid fuel, by pumping air into the fuel tank, you force the fuel to the burner, under pressure, but the pressure is very low, and very close to atmospheric. Not enough pressure for the Joule-Thompson effect to mean very much.

There are two kinda of alcohol stoves, those that are simply a burning pool of alcohol, and those that are pressurized by heat, Triangas and some of the fancier soda-can stoves are fully enclosed except for the burner holes near the top, you heat the stove to start it, and that increases the pressure inside, which forces some of the alcohol out, which burns. Again the pressure isn't very high and if the stove were to cool when operating it would go out. Since the heat is very close to the stove, when it's running it's going to remain hot, and that means that the Joule-Thompson effect again doesn't mean much.

However all this is kind of moot, you could count the number of winter bike tourists, world wide on one hand, even with a couple of fingers missing.

cyccommute 

I was being somewhat facetious about the frozen canister in my original post. However, the boiling point of butane/isobutane is around 11F (-11C), so the canister would have to be cooled significantly for it not to boil off when the valve is opened. I've never been in a situation where the butane canister didn't operate but then I don't do winter camping. I haven't much problem here in Colorado with butane either because our higher altitude makes the pressure differential just a bit higher so it still boils off readily. Even in high humidity environments, however, I've not had any problem with the canister having ice on it for longer than a few minutes. The time it takes to wash the morning coffee cup, pack the bike, etc is more than enough to melt any ice build up.

You are slightly incorrect on the white gas stoves. The air pressure forces a liquid stream from the fuel bottle. At the stove there is a loop that is heated by the flame and the liquid within the tube is vaporized before it is put through the stove's venturi. Any Joule-Thomson cooling will take place at the venturi (maybe a very little in the bottle)

My experience with alcohol stoves is limited. I did make a pop can stove and found it interesting but not something I'd use. (I prefer greater control). However, the stove didn't pressurize the fuel in the slightest. There's nothing to hold the pressure. If the Triangas work the same way, then the fuel is vaporizing by the heat of the flame...like the white gas stoves...prior to burning. No pressure would be involved at all.

My personal preference, in order, is butane and white gas. Butane provides the best control but it's not as readily available. I have a stove that will burn both. If it had a piezoelectric igniter, it would be an outstanding stove. For short trips, I'll go butane all the way.