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  1. #1
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    Stronger Wheels in 700c or 622 ETRTO Size

    Hi guys,

    I have a Kona Smoke, a steel frame urban bike. I would like to change its wheelset for a more robust rims and hubs to use it like an hybrid Urban/Trekking Bike. I cannot find many options for 700c or ETRTO 622 size wheelsets (or rims/hubs DIY) with V-brake.

    Any help or ideas?


    So far i only found in Rims

    Mavic A119 (good, but entry level)
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD

    DT Swiss TK 7.1 (better quality)
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...lack-14601.htm

    but very difficult to find Hubs for V-brake. I could also go for some Wheelset not too very expensive.


    Cheers,

    Sebastian
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  2. #2
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    There are lots of options. Velocity Dyads, Sun Rhyno Lite etc etc. You don't need special hubs for V-brakes.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzapuca View Post
    Hi guys,

    I have a Kona Smoke, a steel frame urban bike. I would like to change its wheelset for a more robust rims and hubs to use it like an hybrid Urban/Trekking Bike. I cannot find many options for 700c or ETRTO 622 size wheelsets (or rims/hubs DIY) with V-brake.

    Any help or ideas?


    So far i only found in Rims

    Mavic A119 (good, but entry level)
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD

    DT Swiss TK 7.1 (better quality)
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...lack-14601.htm

    but very difficult to find Hubs for V-brake. I could also go for some Wheelset not too very expensive.


    Cheers,

    Sebastian
    there are many good choices on those websites. Pick the Mavic A719. Has something happened to your old wheels? Even the lower cost Mavic 119 would make a decent wheel. If you're budgeting don't bother putting an expensive rim on the front as it'll last three times longer than the rear.

  4. #4
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    But almost all Hubs are for disc now. So you said that there is no problem using a Disc Hub with a V-Brake wheel at all?

  5. #5
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    exactly, the hub doesn't care. A disc hub just happens to have provisions for mounting a disc on it, whether you use it or not.

    You will need to make sure that the rim is compatible with rim brakes, as some rimes aren't and are then labeled as "disc-only". These "disc-only" rims will not have a flat surface for the brakes to grab.
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  6. #6
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    Has something happened to your old wheels?

    Not really, but i am planning ahead and checking if i can get a good deal after Xmas Sales or later and build better wheel in the future. It is a good tip to know i should concentrate in my money efforts in the rear wheel.

    It is great to know i could use any hub available. I just checked a Shimano LX for 40 euros (60 U$S)
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=28030

    Anyhow, as i read in another forum and since i have a freewheel configuration now, i should make more changes than i thought
    Last edited by uzapuca; 11-17-09 at 09:40 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzapuca View Post
    But almost all Hubs are for disc now. So you said that there is no problem using a Disc Hub with a V-Brake wheel at all?
    Sebastian, why do you say you can't find regular hubs? The website you showed has complete wheelsets as well as hubs and suitable rims for rim brakes. If you are located in Madrid there must be dozens of shops able to sell you exactly what you need.

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...d-29er-859.htm

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...r-Pair-695.htm

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzapuca View Post
    Anyhow, as i read in another forum and since i have a freewheel configuration now, i should make more changes than i thought
    you have a Kona Smoke with a freewheel? So this is a used bike?

  9. #9
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Hubs are easy to find.
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...lver-14349.htm

    You can use the hubs you have now, I just had a wheel rebuilt with a Velocity Dyad rim and kept the hub. If it's not old it's unlikely you will have a problem.
    If you want a better hub, that's a different issue.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    you have a Kona Smoke with a freewheel? So this is a used bike?
    Good point, if it's old, the spacing could be 130 while the new rear hubs use a 135mm
    spacing. Not a big issue, but something you need to know if you are doing it yourself.
    We are as gods, we might as well get good at it.
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  11. #11
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    Well i said i could not find regular hubs, because i only found hubs that says Disc and if there are Disc Hubs suitable for Disc i thought there should be Hubs for specific V brake as well, that is my confussion in this matter. I didn't know i could use any hub i want.

    The Kona Smoke is a brand new 2009 model. I read in some forum that is supposed to be a freewheel system but i could me mistaken. As you can see i am quite new on bike mechanics, just starting in this world...

    Sebastian, why do you say you can't find regular hubs? The website you showed has complete wheelsets as well as hubs and suitable rims for rim brakes. If you are located in Madrid there must be dozens of shops able to sell you exactly what you need.

    Well, i can see the rims now, but i rather go with a whelsets i can configurate choose by myself because it might me more economic than a custom made model (i guess). Well i wish there will be dozens of shops for bikes in Madrid, there are some, but i usually buy most of the stuff throught Internet in the UK, which have a whole lot of variety to choose from and better prices. Spain economy is a bit state controlled in prices so costs tends to be a bit higher besides is a smaller consumer market compared to the UK or the huge USA.

    By the way here are the specs. of my Kona Smoke (so you can check is freewheel or not):
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  12. #12
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    That's odd, I bet it's a cassette and the Kona website has a typo. Determine that before buying anything. I'd be surprised if any Kona is made with a freewheel.

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/techdocs...=1237521101873


    It really wouldn't make economic sense to build up from retail purchases parts. Add up the parts cost and you'll see why. Building up $120 worth of rim and spokes onto a low cost hub wouldn't make as much sense as getting the same spokes and rim on a good quality hub then use your wheelbuilding skills to ensuring the pre-built wheel is trued up ok.

    So you have a new bike and the wheels are fine but you want something more robust? Why not simply ride it hard and see if the existing wheels hold up?

    If I was looking for the best value for spare wheels these look like a great deal. These are better than your stock wheels. You could spend more but I bet anything that would bend these would bend the pricier A719 wheels. Crashes aren't calibrated to the cost of the part being broken.

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...Rims-18133.htm

  13. #13
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    velocity just came out with a triple walled version of their deep v. up to 48h. i'd wager it's probably stronger than their dyads. definitely stronger than that mavic a719 trash.

    http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=699

  14. #14
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    at 770 grams it better be, but is a 19mm wide rim really ideal for 35mm+ tires? Seems to me one of the concerns about "robust" wheels is not having the lip bend over in severe pot hole situatons, not just the entire rim going out of round.
    I had a Dyad get dinged that way and makes me wonder if they're any better or worse than the mavics in that dept. I'd like the Dyad in an off center version.
    Last edited by LeeG; 11-17-09 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #15
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    not everyone tours with a 35mm+ tire. i prefer 28's on my touring bike. if weight is a concern to you, seems like rolling resistance and drag would be of equal importance.

  16. #16
    Senior Member tarwheel's Avatar
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    Velocity Dyads and Mavic A719s are both very sturdy, high quality rims that can handle tires suited for touring and commuting. You can buy them with 32, 36 and possibly 40 spoke versions (48 for Dyads). You could build up either rim with Ultegra (or comparable quality) hubs and butted S/S spokes for $330-350 or so.

  17. #17
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    That's odd, I bet it's a cassette and the Kona website has a typo. Determine that before buying anything. I'd be surprised if any Kona is made with a freewheel.

    I even don't know what the difference of a cassette and a freewheel are. So my bike mechanics knowledge is at entry level. Do you mean cassette at the 8 speed sprockets in the rear wheel?


    It really wouldn't make economic sense to build up from retail purchases parts. Add up the parts cost and you'll see why.

    I have to do the math. As i said i can get something better deals in buying at some UK stores in the Internet that a the wheelsets in Spain, but the Spain vendor craftmanship is less expensive than the UK. So again, i will have to check what is more convenient.


    So you have a new bike and the wheels are fine but you want something more robust? Why not simply ride it hard and see if the existing wheels hold up?

    Yes i will not buy it right now, but i might grabs some pieces if i get a good deal in the post Xmas Sales. Just planning for the medium future. Thanks for the advice on SJS wheelset i'll keep that in mind.


    Veganise what do you say "definitely stronger than that mavic a719 trash." Look like a decent quality rim with at a very affordable price, am i wrong?


    What is the difference in having 32, 36 or 40 spokes? Just weight vs. endurance or something else? By the way, i will be fitting 28"x2.00" Schwalbe Big Apple in the rear wheel this week. I don't know if that info is relevant regardig rims or something else.
    Last edited by uzapuca; 11-17-09 at 02:49 PM.

  18. #18
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    do some research. search the forums. they're cheap for a reason.

  19. #19
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    I just did the Math...

    Regarding the wheelsets
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/src/froog...Rims-18133.htm

    Here is the chart.

    There is a 45 U$S difference, if you buy the part apart but of course i donīt how much a Bike Mechanic will charge me for constructing the wheels because i have no idea of doing myself and somehow i think is not a easy thing to do.
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    Last edited by uzapuca; 11-17-09 at 03:56 PM.

  20. #20
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    No offense, but the '09 Kona Smoke is a $425 bicycle. Instead of throwing money at the Smoke, I advise saving for a better bike. And actually, the stock wheels seem to be pretty robust. 36 spokes, box section rims. Probably the strong point on the whole package, really. And the bike does have a cassette hub on it, btw-

  21. #21
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    Well Veganaise i am not a professional rider. And thanks for the good idea of doing a research in the forum but despite your personal opinion i am only finding good thing about the Mavic a719.

    "719s are available in 700c. I have them on one of my bikes. You could hardly do better than these as a touring rim."

    "Clayface, I think that if you search the forums you will find that many people here think that the A719 is one of the best touring rims available these days. Search is your friend. "

    "Have A-719s (40 h, 700c) on our tandem. Gross weight is about 375 Lbs. Still true and round. Excellent rims. Planning on building up an LHT later this year and wouldn't consider any other rims."


    Well biked, thanks for your tip and no offense taken, but really do like my Kona Smoke, the steel frame is solid and runs quite smooth in the city. Beside the bike is brand new. I just thought of building a stronger wheelset in the future. Rigida Cyber 10 are an very standard entry level rims and i think a more robust or wider rim (double wall) which is not very expensive could give a better ride in long touring or forestal bumpy roads. Cheers,

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzapuca View Post
    I even don't know what the difference of a cassette and a freewheel are. So my bike mechanics knowledge is at entry level. Do you mean cassette at the 8 speed sprockets in the rear wheel?


    It really wouldn't make economic sense to build up from retail purchases parts. Add up the parts cost and you'll see why.

    I have to do the math. As i said i can get something better deals in buying at some UK stores in the Internet that a the wheelsets in Spain, but the Spain vendor craftmanship is less expensive than the UK. So again, i will have to check what is more convenient.





    What is the difference in having 32, 36 or 40 spokes? Just weight vs. endurance or something else? By the way, i will be fitting 28"x2.00" Schwalbe Big Apple in the rear wheel this week. I don't know if that info is relevant regardig rims or something else.
    Before cassettes the entire freewheeling assembly and cogs (freewheel) unscrewed off the hub. With cassettes the freewheeling assembly is integral with the hub and only the cogs came off as one cassette.
    The functional difference is that the wheel bearings support the axle better in a cassette hub than a freewheel hub. Bent rear axles were not uncommon with freewheels because the rear wheel bearings were set off to the left which resulted in the axle being cantilevered to the right and big people and heavy loads would bend the axle. Freewheels pretty much discontinued 20yrs ago.

    My suggestion would be to enjoy the stock wheels on your bike, I seriously doubt you will need to upgrade them and any accident that is likely to damage them will probably damage you or the bike. Which would be the same with any higher cost rim.

    More spokes or heavier spokes is appropriate for heavier loads, the opposite for light loads. In times past when rim manufacturers had only one or two rims adding more spoke holes was easier than making making an entirely new rim. In other words if a manufacturer made one rim with 36 holes the builder could put in 14gauge spokes for heavy use and 15gauge spokes for light use. A front wheel for racers might have the same rim with 28 or 32 spokes. The rear wheel might have 32, 36, 40 or 48 holes depending on the weight of the rider or tandem use. Between the different gauge of spokes and number of holes a builder could make up a range of wheels for different loads and uses all with one rim. In the last couple decades a lot more rims of stronger construction are common reducing the necessity for more spokes for the average tourer.

    If you are a heavy person, above 250lbs or so, keep an eye on the rear wheel as you ride more. Set the bike up on a stand or turn it upside down and take note how out of round, or side to side wobble, it has when you spin it slowly. Pluck the spokes and note how they vary in tone. It really doesn't matter how fancy your wheels are if you are ignorant of their condition. It's not uncommon for a production bikes wheels to go slightly out of true after a few months riding then settle into that condition. What you want to watch out for is one or two spokes becoming loose over time, which may not be for years. Once that starts the life of the spokes declines significantly. When I had my shop people would tour into town with broken spokes saying "it held up fine for years" except they never loaded up the bike with those wobbly wheels. If they had made sure the wheels were checked in the first year of unloaded riding they probably wouldn't be breaking spokes loaded.
    If you are a light person under 150lbs I bet those wheels will last a LONG time.

    The only reason I could think of for getting another set of wheels for that new bike is to learn how to build them.
    Last edited by LeeG; 11-18-09 at 07:44 AM.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Check out this site, it'll probably be much cheaper than a UK based site.

    http://www.bike-components.de/shop/c...-Rim-Brak.html

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzapuca View Post
    That's odd, I bet it's a cassette and the Kona website has a typo. Determine that before buying anything. I'd be surprised if any Kona is made with a freewheel.

    I even don't know what the difference of a cassette and a freewheel are. So my bike mechanics knowledge is at entry level. Do you mean cassette at the 8 speed sprockets in the rear wheel?
    Back in the old days, the rear wheel cogs contained the ratchet mechanism, and screwed onto the hub, this was called a freewheel, it meant that the bearings on the axle for the right side were about the middle, and a little more then ordinary stress would break the axle. The other problem these had, is that the screw thread was oriented so that peddling would tighten it on there, and that sometimes meant that getting the freewheel off, needed the strength of an 800lb gorilla to even budge it. Around 20 years ago, they invented the cassette mechanism, the ratchet mechanism was built into the hub, the axle bearings were further out, and the cogs were built onto a carrier, which would simply slide on, originally the smallest cog was a screw on type to hold the rest on, the torque on it was always fairly low, so it would still be easy enough to unscrew, even if it had been on there for a donkeys age. Later models used a separate lock ring, basically a special nut, and the smallest cog was on the carrier with the rest. The only problem was that the spline or the piece the cog carrier slides onto has 2 standards, Shimano and Campagnolo, most manufacturers other then Campagnolo use the Shimano standard.

    Some very inexpensive department store, bicycles still used the freewheel for a long time, until the parts stores ran out, I don't know if even they do now, it's not economical to make special parts for cheap bikes, although they could be stamping them out in a sweatshop in China for next to nothing.....

    Some times bicycle manufacturers will use the term freewheel when they mean cassette, since most people don't know the difference and the term freewheel has been around for a long time, and most people, even the uninitiated will know it. Cassette is also a very generic term used in many industries to mean different things, so to avoid confusion they use the old terminology.

  25. #25
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    Wow you guys get the info out fast so much that I can't read it all. I think XT or LX trekking hubs are excellent choices and it is easy enough to cut 5mm or axle off and remove the 5mm spacer from the non-drive side and build from there for 130mm. Lickity split.

    I am very impressed with the DT swiss TK 7.1 I think anything over 36H 3x is overkill for a good touring load (max. 65lbs self supported). I also will point out that often we stress of specs on components and miss the important aspects.

    The most important aspect of a wheel is the builder and the spokes!

    I build my own wheels and do a fine job. Spokes are critical, spend the extra money and get DT swiss alpine III triple butted spokes... 2.3mm at from the head down to 1.8 to 2.0 at the nipple. Spokes almost always break (assuming they have been sized properly and fill the nipple, I've seen them break at the threads when too short a spoke is used) at the head and a 2.3mm spoke is going to be stronger.

    I admit I work in a shop and get parts at cost... so I built the ultimate touring wheel set (although I later regretted not going with a dyno front hub) DT swiss TK 7.1. black rims laced with black DT Swiss Alpine II spokes to phil wood 36H touring hubs with cassette (running 8s). That said I laced up a 719 with DB dt swiss spokes on a high speed train in the UK to a ****ty shimano rm-50 hub and proceeded to subject it to 1700kms and didn't need to true it once other then when I accidentally shoved my heel into it while riding. So I like 719s too.
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