staehpj1

I tend to agree at least partially, but I have not tried the longflap approach, so what do i know. I would try it if I weren't too cheap to spring to that much money. Both of my racks and all 4 panniers combined were substantially less $$ and that is before you add a bag support.

Also I don't get is how it makes sense to scrimp on weight on just about everything else and make the bag out of waxed cotton duck and leather straps. I can see where it is aesthetically pleasing, but when we are minimizing weight everywhere else it just doesn't make sense to me.

If someone would make something similar from Cordura Nylon and at a much lower price I would try it in a heartbeat.

I wonder if any one has tried using some kind of gear bag that wasn't specifically designed for bike touring. Some are well made, similar in size, made of lighter materials, and much cheaper.

I keep toying with the notion of buying a similar sized nylon duffel and making a home made bag support. Eventually I may stumble across the right duffel and give it a go.

Cyclesafe

Yes, I totally agree with this. Especially if one is touring where one needs to haul food and water, one won't have space and with the latter without a rack one won't also have the carrying capacity . There's also no space for other stuff that some might consider essential (water filter, bear spray, spare tire, bath wipes, yada yada). And weight is better distributed lower around the bike, rather perched up high.

OTOH, nun demonstrates IMHO a paradigm shift that is totally appropriate for some people in some situations. I mean maybe one wouldn't mind gorging oneself on peaches while still at the fruit stand. (Although I'd hold off on the wine.) And, if I understand correctly, nun has carefully selected his kit so that - except for his tent - everything fits in the bags he has selected. One can legitimately pick nits with the relative functionality of some of his choices (rain gear, sleeping system, tent), but once one justifies an alternative, one is forced to bite the bullet for racks and panniers. Take your poison. Substitute a good equivalent-warmth bag for his Hudson Bay quilt and it's not just an incremental 10 oz, it's 10oz + 28 oz (Logo rack) + 80 oz (pair of T-42 panniers) - 30 oz (Nelson) - 14 oz (Bagman) = 4lb, 10oz! The lawyers call that a slippery slope!

(Yes, there are lighter racks and panniers)

This rig isn't for me either, but I nevertheless find it intriguing. And I will be thinking of nun's kit while more heavily laden climbing Colorado's passes this summer.

nun

The thing I love about touring are the endless gear combos, as an engineer I like hardware so mixing and matching is part of the fun. The Nelson Longflap is a little anachronistic, but then so's my bike. I use a cotton duck saddlebag because I used one as a teenager, I like the way it looks, and it works well. At just under 2lbs the Nelson Longflap isn't ridiculously heavy, and the cotton duck has a little stiffness that works well to keep the bag open when packing it. But I agree that something made with modern materials would be interesting. In fact Carradice do a Cordura saddlebag, it's big at 24 litres and weighs about 1.75lbs

https://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php...&product_id=32

and makers like Epic Designs or Cascade could design something in modern materials.

My bigger point is that I don't consider my setup or approach to be UL because I haven't taken every opportunity to cut weight. How stuff works, feels, and yes looks is important too. I like sharing my setup it with the folks on this forum, but I hope that nobody just copies it. I'd love to see someone take a ripstop duffle and see how it works. In fact that's sort of what the true UL guys do. They pack everything in stuff sacks and strap it onto the bike

Cyclesafe

Another good point. The Nelson Longflap is 18 liters and 30 oz and a 20-30 liter sil-nylon stuff sack weighs about 2 oz. The latter might be made to work with a little sewing ingenuity. And a smaller sack could work for the HB bag too.

https://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/7

Sure there are compromises, but....

Oh and don't forget about the frame packs!

https://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FFP
https://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/?page_id=4

nun

I think we can agree that we both like to keep our loads on the lighter side and a couple of small panniers and a handlebar bag, or four panniers, is a really nice way to carry a load. I did that when I commuted in London. I'd put books, rugby kit, over coats etc into a couple of small panniers and ride from Fulham to Kennsington on my Claud Butler Majestic, but the width was an issue in rush hour traffic so I went over to a saddlebag. I did some credit card touring with saddlebag and handlebar bag and when lightweight tents and sleeping pads came out it seemed natural to see if I could add them to my credit card setup and hence the evolution of my approach to touring.

If I want to carry a bottle of wine I use the longflap on the saddlebag. I admit that I have to be careful in what extra food I buy and my recent change from an Acorn handlebar bag to a Rivendell Brand V was to give me a little extra capacity for that "Subway foot long" and on the road snacks.

I do strap my sleeping pad to the top of the saddlebag and it annoys me a little. It's very secure, but it does annoy me a little, so I've been looking at the new Thermarest Neo Air mattresses. they pack down to about half the size of the Big Agnes, but they are expensive, so I'll hold off for a while.........The under the saddle position for my tent is fantastic. It's strapped to the saddle and the Bagman and is very secure and there's no leg rub.

nun

Wow paradigm shift........maybe not, the saddlebag is pretty old technology, but thanks anyway.

Food and water are obviously big issues and I'd think twice about using my setup where resupply would be more than 100miles away. As far as food goes I pack couscous, honey, instant oatmeal, noodles etc as as I see them as essentials. I'll eat in restaurants when I can, but I have room in the saddlebag and handlebar bag to carry extra food and water. Water is a big issue and I carry 2x 1litre Smartwater bottles as they fit nicely into regular water bottle carriers. I can also put a 3rd water bottle on the downtube, but my setup won't get me across a desert.

As far as extra stuff goes,

water filter......pack puritabs

bear spray......I could find room for this

spare tire.......I use tyre boots

bath wipes.........toilet paper and alcohol

I cannot fit everything into a saddlebag, in fact I have 4 bags: saddlebag, handlebar bag, and silnylon bags for my tent and sleeping pad. If I slept on bubble wrap and used a bivy or tarp I could probably get it down to two, but that would be too much of a comfort compromise. I look for gear that will give me as much comfort as possible while fitting into my restricted volume. So the Hudson River Quilt is a great sleeping solution. It packs down to the size of a nalgene bottle, but provides good 3 season comfort.

nun

Hi Cyclesafe,
I bought a kitchen scale yesterday and measured my gear weights and here's the spreadsheet. the Bottomline is that my gear, bags and racks comes in at 22lbs. I haven't included food and water. It was an interesting exercise as it highlighted some pretty heavy items and I'll try to find equally functional, but lighter, alternatives. I may go out and buy a Thermarest Neo Air sleeping pad and get a lighter lock and the saddlebag really does pop out a bit at almost 2lbs. I wonder if Epic could make something with similar dimensions out of modern materials that would weigh around a pound?
The spreadsheet is here at Google docs.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...lU20tcWc&hl=en

Cyclesafe

Thanks nun.

Although weighing everything will seem rather retentive to some, actually it helps to highlight areas where changes can make meaningful improvements. The sleeping pad will save you about 10 oz and a new saddlebag another 8 oz or so. Too bad you can't wait until these items wear out before replacing!

nun

I saw a Neo Air sleeping pad in the "flesh" today and it is amazingly light and packs small, but the price is high so I'll wait for a while until I see the response from other makers. It's also makes a lot of noise....a bit like a space blanket. I'm happy with my set up at the moment, but I'm sure I'll replace a few things over the next year with the goal of getting below 20lbs including bags and racks. But no bubblewrap, I'm not prepared to give up function and comfort.

I'd love to save 8oz with a new saddlebag....which one are you thinking of? The Carradura? or using a dry bag hack?

Cyclesafe

The NeoAir will be on sale at the end of the 2010 season.

The Carradura will save you 230g. I'm not sure if I would actually depend on a silnylon stuff sack no matter how ingeneous my attachment system was.

nun

None of my usual sources for Carradice seem to have stock of the Carradura saddlebag. However, prompted by your suggestion of using a dry sack how about strapping it on to the saddle with an Epic Designs handlebar harness? Failing that a couple of nylon straps could be used to attach the bag to the
saddle with a third one threaded behind them and used to pull the bag tight against the seat post or bagman. However, the dry sack approach has a major drawback and that's getting access to stuff at the bottom of the bag a silynlon duffel might work better.

Cyclesafe

Something like this? (25 liters in XL)

https://www.granitegear.com/products/...quarerock.html

nun

I was just looking at this.

https://www.rei.com/product/766679

With a 20L compression sack i should be able to fit the sleeping pad inside too. And maybe a 6 or 10L
size would work on the handlebars. I think I'll buy a couple of these on the way home from work and test it out. The big issue will still be ease of access.

nun

Here is my setup using a couple of compression sacks instead of the canvas bags. The weight of gear, bags and racks is now 19.4 lbs, down from 22 lbs. By updating my heavier items like the sleeping pad I could get it down to 18lbs. To make the nylon sack approach work you really have to use compression sacks to stop the contents from moving and to give the bag structure and allow it to be strapped tightly to the bike. Also I think it's best to go with a waterproof sack rather than water resistant which adds a few oz to the weight. But your stuff will stay dry and the slightly thicker nylon will hold up to the abrasion and stress of being strapped to the bike. However, this is where I part company with the true UL crowd as I don't think I'd tour with compression sacks as they aren't as convenient as a saddlebag which organizes stuff well and allows for easy access. I think I'd get irritated quickly by having to undo the compression straps to get anything out.



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truman

I agree. I get annoyed, just rolling/unrolling Ortliebs over and again.

Assuming one goes light in order to go 'fast', then loses the time gained trying to get an extra sweater out of storage, that seems like a losing proposition. Assuming one goes light to limit exertion, then has to go through considerable inconvenience to use his/her gear, it seems like a loser again.

nun

Don't get me wrong, I'd tour with compression sacks before I'd strap 4x panniers and 60lbs of gear onto the bike, but I think I'd rather use purpose built cycling bags than compression sacks as far as convenience is concerned. So right now that means carrying 2.5lbs more weight in cotton duck material, but if someone would come up with a 15 to 20L saddlebag made from 100D nylon that weighs 0.5lbs or less I'd buy one tomorrow. I think the 100D nylon is required because of the abuse a saddle bag goes through.

truman

Oh, no - I think I'm I'm with you - you find the point of diminishing returns and stay close to that. I'm a two-panniers-and-handlebar-bag man, myself. I shoot for 'light', or even 'pretty light' - but not 'ultralight'.

antokelly

nun are you a member of the fell club by any chance,just that there's a guy on there selling his neo air torso only mat for 50 quid.

mr geeker

50 quid = £312.5

no joke!

antokelly

hah not from where i come from.
that's 50 pound sterling.

nun

I thought 50 quid was a couple of ponies.

FYI thanks to the forum for getting me to weigh my gear, here is a summary of where I now stand. I'm looking forward to the thaw to try it out

https://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

Cave

Hi Anto, I'm nowhere near Nun or Ivan or Kent Peterson but panniers + gear + tools + consumables for me is about 12kg (26lb) not including racks or bottle cages. I use 2 panniers, 2 water bottles, 1 top tube "tri" bag (bento box). I'm also interested in the saddle + handlebar bag approach but not until I'm again touring more and get a lighter bike.

Do a google search on "ultralight backpacking" to get some ideas for equipment and strategies. Also "journey to the centre of the earth" for a more extreme adventure-racing type setup (which sounds pretty unsafe to me).

Reasonably light equipment can be had at moderate cost eg. I have a 2-person tent 1.2kg (pretty snug - me and wife, or me only!), sleeping bag 900g with waterproof stuffsac (you can go lighter but it costs more), mini-trangia, I use polypro and microfleece tops, tights, lightweight rain/wind gear; 2 pairs gloves are worth the marginal extra weight (one pair is fullfinger and windproof/water resistant; I use latex gloves underneath, to keep them dry from sweat, if it is seriously cold). I have a thermarest prolite 3R sleeping pad (which is more comfortable folded in half and used double-thickness under my torso, cut-off windscreen shade under my feet; hoping to get a Neo-Air one day).
I don't go on remote or really long tours; I have used a tyre boot once and spare tubes regularly. I carry a chain tool and stuff to true wheels, fix flats, fix spokes, a spare pair of brake pads, but no heavy tools or spare tyre / cables (I wonder if I should take an uncut cable though). Lucky so far and never in a situation where luck running out would be anything more than inconvenient. I carry a small digital camera and phone; charger for the phone only.

I think the focus on these forums is often too much on the "fully loaded" type of touring. Personally I'm not ready to go down to a single saddle bag yet, but it has been done, and in pretty remote parts of the world too; I don't think Ireland would be any issue at all, safety-wise.

One of my colleagues regularly credit-card tours New Zealand's south island on a racing bike with a medium-sized saddle bag and handle bar bag. No camping gear, though.

mr geeker

quid: quasi universal intersteler dollar, some things ya just cant make up. and yes, i know that wasnt what was meant, just thaught it would be funny to mention.

spooner

I just want to say that as someone who is in the thinking stage of their first tour this is an excellent discussion on packing.

antokelly

anything to oblige spooner as the man said if you don't know just ask, doesn't matter how stupid the question is and god knows i ask a lot of stupid questions .