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Old 05-16-10, 11:53 AM   #1
LeeG
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56cm 26" LHT vs 56cm 700LHT

Just finished moving parts over from the 700cLHT onto the 26"LHT. Did a short ride around the parking lot and will head out shortly for a longer ride. Just around the parking lot the bike has less wheel flop and feels better for slow speed maneuvering than the 700c version. I've got 1.75 Panaracer T-serve tires on, bouncy tires.
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Old 05-17-10, 08:19 AM   #2
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What the heck is wheel flop?
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Old 05-17-10, 09:00 AM   #3
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"wheel flop", or the tendancy for the wheel to turn when leaned

See also:
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-304544.html
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Old 05-17-10, 09:03 AM   #4
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I know it's superficial, but at least in the pictures I've seen online (haven't seen a 26" LHT in person) the bike just looks weird to me w/ those smaller wheels. I know there are arguments for 26" wheels on touring bikes, but on the bigger LHT frames, it just seems so out of proportion.

My own aesthetic preferences aside, hope you enjoy the 26"!
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Old 05-17-10, 12:07 PM   #5
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What the heck is wheel flop?
When you're riding along at low speed, sitting up with light grip on the bars any slight lean makes the front wheel fall off to one side abruptly. It makes hands off riding awkward at any speed. For example the Cross-Check is easier to ride hands off and maneuver at slow speed.

I don't know if it's an intentional characteristic that benefits front loaded bikes but when the 700c LHT was loaded up with a heavy front pannier load on low riders it rode wonderfully. A heavily loaded bike doesn't need nimble handling simply because the heavy weight prevents it so maybe I"m making an apples and oranges comparison. I'm going to do the same with this one and see how it's different. So far the biggest difference given the exact same seat/bar layout is that the bike feels more responsive maneuvering, albeit with fat tires. With the 1.75" Panaracers the bb. height is about 3/8" taller and it's easier to pedal through turns, feels kind of like a little motorcycle with lots of rubber on the road.
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Old 05-17-10, 12:11 PM   #6
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I know it's superficial, but at least in the pictures I've seen online (haven't seen a 26" LHT in person) the bike just looks weird to me w/ those smaller wheels. I know there are arguments for 26" wheels on touring bikes, but on the bigger LHT frames, it just seems so out of proportion.

My own aesthetic preferences aside, hope you enjoy the 26"!
makes me feel 6' tall with that long head tube and the top of the front tire so far away. One thing that's kind of fun is riding along those 1/2" ruts where the asphalt and concrete gutter meet and the wheel not getting jerked around. Talk about floatation.
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Old 05-17-10, 12:12 PM   #7
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26" wheels will be stable at lower speeds, stronger and easily replaced if you travel to remote locations.

700c wheels are more stable at higher speeds, will give you a smoother and more efficient ride by cutting the rolling resistance(which increases based on weight).

edit: nevermind! haha

Yes, a 26" wheel bicycle has a lower capsize speed.
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Old 05-17-10, 12:45 PM   #8
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26" wheels will be stable at lower speeds, stronger and easily replaced if you travel to remote locations.

700c wheels are more stable at higher speeds, will give you a smoother and more efficient ride by cutting the rolling resistance(which increases based on weight).
.
What I'm describing isn't stability from gyroscopic forces but a steering response that is neutral when leaning. This may be irrelevant handling issue with 25lbs on the front fork.
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Old 05-17-10, 01:06 PM   #9
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What I'm describing isn't stability from gyroscopic forces but a steering response that is neutral when leaning. This may be irrelevant handling issue with 25lbs on the front fork.
I dunno, when you toss all that extra weight on there it may magnify it or diminish it, depending on how it affects the centre of gravity. How to you mean a neutral steering response? the tendency to capsize inwards?
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Old 05-17-10, 01:25 PM   #10
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I dunno, when you toss all that extra weight on there it may magnify it or diminish it, depending on how it affects the centre of gravity. How to you mean a neutral steering response? the tendency to capsize inwards?
no, I mean when you lean the front wheel turns into a turn of a constant radius, when the wheel falls or flops to one side it's an increasingly tighter turn that requires you to grab the bars to hold the turn constant. It's the kind of thing that makes riding hands off to do something possible using just your weight to hold the line. I figured the LHT "wheelflop" was intentional for riding with panniers. I'll report back to see how it is with a full load of groceries front and back and see if the difference really matters.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:23 PM   #11
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Another thing to think about is toe overlap. I currently own a 700c 56cm LHT and once I put fenders on there was SIGNIFICANT toe overlap. So much, in fact, that I will be purchasing the same size frame but in the 26" variety in a short while. Keep in mind I wear a size 12 shoe and have me cleats mounted as far towards the heel as possible on my shoes.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:27 PM   #12
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26 inch wheels are the way to go. natch.

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Old 05-18-10, 11:47 AM   #13
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hokay, groceries in two pairs of panniers, low rider in front and panniers on rear rack. About 30lbs total.

The handling didn't change significantly beyond being slower with the weight. It's different than the 700c which I had set up with 35mm tires in that the 26" version feels more confident weaving on/off the bike path at low speed. I can pick and change a course more easily with or without weight. 20mph going down a hill wasn't enough to discern significant differences. Having 1.75" tires is a huge difference regarding bumps and ruts, the rolling resistance is a bit higher.

There is something different about the trail. I don't have the geometry in my head how a smaller wheel with the same fork and head angle affects things but it is noticeable. Honestly I don't think the handling difference matters. For unloaded riding I prefer the 26" version and can notice the difference loaded but it's not significant. If you're riding a long time it's the riding that matters. If I was getting a 700c version I'd rather it handled like the 26" , in the same way I like how the CrossCheck handles compared to the 700c LHT.

Gotta get the fenders on, I haven't ridden a bike without fenders in awhile and the roads were just rained on. Next step is to get the Cargo rack modified or get a Cosmo so I can put the panniers on about 2" lower and find a front rack that puts the panniers up about 2" higher than standard low rider position and has a small rack on top.

Last edited by LeeG; 05-18-10 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 05-18-10, 12:10 PM   #14
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My own aesthetic preferences aside, hope you enjoy the 26"!
I have the same feeling.
Nevertheless, just like LeeG did, I recently swap my 56x700c for a 56x26". I built the latter from the frameset up so comparisons are difficult. Moreover it has some idiosyncrasies which render any comparisons flawed from start. But, it is the sweetest ride that I ever had. It feels nimbler unloaded.

LeeG, I hope that you'll show us some pictures of your ride.
Here are the two Flickr sets that I have of it one naked and the other one dressed up for commuting.
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Old 05-18-10, 12:48 PM   #15
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Jean, Are those 2.0" tires? I"m curious if they make any noise or noticable buzzing while riding unloaded. I've got a 35mm Marathon supreme on the rear of another bike that's starting to get squared off with wear. The 1.75" Panaracer T-serv tires have kind of a rounded trapezoid shape like the BigApples but I think there's a squeeging action in the tread that makes them slower than the 35mm T-servs or the Supremes. The tires feel well connected to the road but I bet the Supremes are just as connected with less rolling resistance.

Mine is also black, set up with drop bars about 1" below seat height, a generator front hub w. Dyad rim and rear wheel with a beefy Rhynolite rim. Two rolls of black cloth tape wrapped on the top tube so I don't care about leaning it up against metal poles.
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Old 05-18-10, 01:15 PM   #16
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Are those 2.0" tires? I"m curious if they make any noise or noticable buzzing while riding unloaded.

Yes, they do whir, loaded or unloaded. I must say that i am not hearing them in the city, only in the country and only if everything else is quiet and there's not much wind in my ears. It does bother some people, but the Supreme has more fans than not.

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I bet the Supremes are just as connected with less rolling resistance.
They roll great. For touring I'll still give a try to the Dureme mounted on xm719 rims. Those are hardly heavier but have a better thread for offish-road, more durable too. They say that has little rolling resistance too.

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Mine is also black, set up with drop bars about 1" below seat height
Which saddle did you associate with it. As you've seen I have a Brooks pre-aged which is super when I ride "on the tops". In the "aero" position well, no perineum pain but it still feels strange to have so much weight bearing on one's man parts, you know.

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a generator front hub
I need one for the longer brevets, 300 km+. Which one did you decide on? I feel like Shimanoes should be enough.

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w. Dyad rim and rear wheel with a beefy Rhynolite rim
Interesting and good mix. Are both your tires the same size? I had a friend, whose opinion I respect greatly, telling me that he had a skinnier tire on the front, that he liked the handling better that way.

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Two rolls of black cloth tape wrapped on the top tube so I don't care about leaning it up against metal poles.
Well, well, well, you make me feel vain. I can't even find the resolve to put the racks on when commuting because I don't like the look.
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Old 05-18-10, 01:46 PM   #17
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Yes, they do whir, loaded or unloaded. I must say that i am not hearing them in the city, only in the country and only if everything else is quiet and there's not much wind in my ears. It does bother some people, but the Supreme has more fans than not.



They roll great. For touring I'll still give a try to the Dureme mounted on xm719 rims. Those are hardly heavier but have a better thread for offish-road, more durable too. They say that has little rolling resistance too.



Which saddle did you associate with it. As you've seen I have a Brooks pre-aged which is super when I ride "on the tops". In the "aero" position well, no perineum pain but it still feels strange to have so much weight bearing on one's man parts, you know.



I need one for the longer brevets, 300 km+. Which one did you decide on? I feel like Shimanoes should be enough.



Interesting and good mix. Are both your tires the same size? I had a friend, whose opinion I respect greatly, telling me that he had a skinnier tire on the front, that he liked the handling better that way.



Well, well, well, you make me feel vain. I can't even find the resolve to put the racks on when commuting because I don't like the look.

I was curious, I noticed the buzz on a 20" Supreme and less so on the 700C. Either way they're good tires. The 1.75 T-servs are the same size but I'm actually one to put bigger tires on the front than back if there's rough roads and extra weight on the front. Go figure.
I've got a Specialized Avatar gel on order. I discovered a year ago the wider size was better for me now that I'm heavier and sitting a bit more upright. My old bikes had the bars 3" below the saddle but I was also 40lbs lighter. I tried breaking in a leather saddle but it's just not worth it. The Avatar is comfortable and my old Concor just doesn't provide the support i need.

I got a Schmidt Son generator, still deciding on the light. The original halogen lamp in a Schmidt E6 lamp isn't that bright even though the beam is perfect. I've got one of these on another bike and it's plenty bright but the flood beam wastes a LOT of light. http://lightonlights.com/dynolight/ .
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Old 05-18-10, 04:12 PM   #18
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I have the Schmidt son dyno hub also but with the Schmidt IQ CYO headlight.From what I understand they have a very similar beam pattern,the only real differance is that the led lights are whiter than the halogens.
I can't imagine the E6 isn't bright enough,have you tried changing the bulb yet,I hear the halogen bulbs go dim as they age.

Jean thanks for the pictures I seen them at the lht owners group.I've been wanting some fenders that provide more coverage than what I have now and looks like I found them.Beutifull bike buy the way.
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Old 05-18-10, 04:30 PM   #19
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What the heck is wheel flop?
You've obviously never ridden a 1980s mountain bike Wheel flop is more of an issue with slack headtube angles. 1980's mountain bikes...like the first Specialized Stumpjumper, Miyata Ridge Runner, Ross mountain bikes, etc...had headtube angles of less than 69 degrees. Makes the bike very stable at higher speed...such as on downhills...but the front wheel flops around severely when climbing. It was a real skill to climb on one of those bikes.

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When you're riding along at low speed, sitting up with light grip on the bars any slight lean makes the front wheel fall off to one side abruptly. It makes hands off riding awkward at any speed. For example the Cross-Check is easier to ride hands off and maneuver at slow speed.
As noted above, at higher speeds the bike is more stable up to a point. Wheel flop, like experienced on the first mountain bikes, is pretty much a thing of the past. Super small frames have a shallower head angle but most bikes don't vary too far from around 71 to 73 degrees.
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Old 05-18-10, 08:55 PM   #20
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Wheel flop, like experienced on the first mountain bikes, is pretty much a thing of the past. Super small frames have a shallower head angle but most bikes don't vary too far from around 71 to 73 degrees.
Which is why I was a little surprised when REI released the new Randonee with a 69 degree head tube, you just don't see that anymore in almost any bike, road or mountain.
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Old 05-18-10, 09:01 PM   #21
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69 degree HTA is pretty common now for mtb "xc/trail" frames... a lot todo with long travel suspension forks.

That(69) is a pretty slack angle for a touring bicycle though... would make for a lot of flop and wobble at low speeds but for smoother tracking and stability at higher speeds...

Do you have the front to centre measurement?
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Old 05-18-10, 09:12 PM   #22
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Not sure about that electrik, Trek has over 25 models of mountain bikes and not one of them has a 69 degree head angle.

Edit: I'm sorry I was wrong, none of the hardtails do but a few of their full suspension bikes do.

Last edited by robow; 05-18-10 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-18-10, 09:15 PM   #23
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Not sure about that electrik, Trek has over 20 models of mountain bikes and not one of them has a 69 degree head angle.
You must be omitting most of their full-suspension bicycles... a cursory glance reveals the Trek Fuel EX has a HTA of 69.5
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Old 05-18-10, 09:22 PM   #24
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I can't imagine the E6 isn't bright enough,have you tried changing the bulb yet,I hear the halogen bulbs go dim as they age.
you haven't tried LEDs They are soooooo much brighter than the E6. wider and better beam patterns too.

Oh, and oyull never change the bulb again. Thats a plus..
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Old 05-19-10, 02:22 AM   #25
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I can't imagine the E6 isn't bright enough,have you tried changing the bulb yet,I hear the halogen bulbs go dim as they age.

.
it's not bright enough, was that way from day one and supplemented it with a Dinotte AA headlight. The drag is more noticable than the LightOn that has a lot more light. I'd love to configure the electronics and LED bulb for that lens but I think it would require a heatsink so I've got two of these E6 to unload.
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