Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    Friend of Jimmy K naisme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Minneapolis
    My Bikes
    A lot: Raliegh road bike, 3 fixed gears, 2 single speeds, 3 Cannondales, a couple of Schwinns
    Posts
    1,458
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Bomb proof wheel build

    Any suggestions? Last year I rebuilt my rear wheel after busting 4 spokes, and rode all winter without incident. Friday busted a spoke. Would like to know the fix before getting out on tour and busting 4 spokes (not all at once).

    Better rims? 36 over 32 spokes? 4 cross over 3 cross? Any one?
    "I will remain the stranger who came from a faraway land." Lance Armstrong

    "The more you drive, the less intelligent you become." Miller "Repo Man"

  2. #2
    ah.... sure. kayakdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Whidbey Island WA
    My Bikes
    Specialized.... schwinn..... enough to fill my needs..
    Posts
    4,106
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you do a search here on BF you will find a ton of information.

    What I use..

    Velocity Dyad 36
    Shimano XT
    Double Butted Spokes
    Brass Nipples
    Built by hand (Peter White)

    Rider weight 160lbs

    I'm going to be building the same thing for the my front wheel this month(taken out by car) but in a 32 spoke.
    Last edited by kayakdiver; 05-17-10 at 08:15 AM. Reason: added front wheel info.
    Save 15% on your first order at Hammer Nutrition!!

    2010 Giant TCR SL 3
    2010 Novara Randonee

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    My Bikes
    Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil, '83 Specialized Stumpjumper
    Posts
    1,288
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What are your current wheel specs?

    If your components are suitable for your weight and intended usage, it comes down to the quality of the build. If you're breaking spokes, you're not as good a wheelbuilder as you may think you are.

    A bombproof wheel is one that "stands". It should never need tuning or break spokes from the moment it is finished. I pay dedicated professionals to do this for me, as I don't have the time or skill to dedicate to this work.

    I've heard Jim Trill at Hiawatha Cycles is a very good wheelbuilder, but don't have first hand experience with him. I use Joe Young of www.youngwheels.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    My Bikes
    IF steel deluxe 29er tourer
    Posts
    1,426
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's no big deal to build your own wheels, but it does take time to learn and practice.

    What's bombproof for a 150 lb rider may be inadequate for a 300 lb one.

    36 hole with brand name rims (Velocity, Mavic) and brand name hubs (Shimano, CK, DT Swiss) are usually good enough. With a(n unacceptable to most) weight penalty you can go with more spokes or unicycle rims, but you'll thank yourself on climbs that you avoided the temptation.

  5. #5
    It's true, man.
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    North Texas
    My Bikes
    Cannondale T1000, Inbred SS 29er, Supercaliber 29er, Crescent Mark XX, Burley Rumba Tandem
    Posts
    2,726
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My wheels are the same specs as Kayakdiver's, built by a local builder. And my hubs are XT disk hubs. Rider weight 215 lbs, gear load 20-24 lbs.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bombproof wheels seem pretty hard to achieve. Sooner or later you will find someone who has blown up just about any combination. We recently had a thread in which more or less the same components the best custom builders use failed, no reason to suspect the build quality. Also, while good build is all important, it is not a secret what goes into it. The info was well publicized even before we had the internet. So it does make one wonder. The good part is that most people's idea of a massive trip is like 5 thousand miles, say, and that is a young life for a wheel.

    At the cheap end I have used Alex DH22 rims, straight gage spokes and LX hubs with tandem weights, 36 spokes... Trying a way more expensive build right now, but since the others never gave any trouble, it is all downhill or even from here.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    My Bikes
    Cervelo RS, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Schwinn Typhoon, Nashbar touring, custom steel MTB
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by naisme View Post
    Any suggestions? Last year I rebuilt my rear wheel after busting 4 spokes, and rode all winter without incident. Friday busted a spoke. Would like to know the fix before getting out on tour and busting 4 spokes (not all at once).
    Remember: even bomb-proof wheels require some periodic maintenance. When was the last time you checked the wheel for true? When was the last time you checked the tension on the spokes?

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,204
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    like others said one can't suggest a fix without knowing what you're starting with. Was the rebuild with new spokes and rim?

  9. #9
    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Salsa, Cannondale, Surly.
    Posts
    2,529
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There's no such thing as a bombproof wheel. If you want close then maybe go with something like 36h XT disc 26" Alex Supra FRX DH rims.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    My Bikes
    Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil, '83 Specialized Stumpjumper
    Posts
    1,288
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    While true, no wheel is fail proof, it is only as good as it's weakest component. You can eliminate the hub by using a completely repairable one, like a Phil Wood, White, Chris King, etc. Shimano hubs have the potential fatal flaw of non replaceable bearing races. I had some races on a 105 hub do this. You never forget it. Cartridge bearings are king here as they can be swapped out, so a hub can last indefinitely. If you want the most durable wheels, and want them to reach their potential, don't start with Shimano hubs.

    A well built wheel should need no tuning. My last set of custom wheels from Joe young have never been touched in 10 years. I've had Wheelsmith wheels(they used to make fantastic wheels) that were as sturdy, but were destroyed by a car.

    If you have quality hubs, proper spokes, and the wheel built to "stand", this leaves the rim as the most vulnerable part which sees the most wear and tear. Here, use a proper tire width.... not too skinny or too fat for the rim.

    Myself, I use nothing but Phil Touring freewheel hubs and Mavic T519/A719 rims. I'm one of the few who prefer FW's.

    All that said, some people are just really hard on wheels. Some people seem to never have a problem. This is a mystery for which there is no answer.

  11. #11
    Friend of Jimmy K naisme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Minneapolis
    My Bikes
    A lot: Raliegh road bike, 3 fixed gears, 2 single speeds, 3 Cannondales, a couple of Schwinns
    Posts
    1,458
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I was looking more for the type of equipment. When I rebuilt the old wheel I went for new spokes, tore all the way down and rebuilt. I have built a lot of wheels and they have all stood true for several years. I did have one fail due to the rim cracking around the nipples.

    Last summer the spokes were breaking at the nips, this last spoke broke at the hub. The rims aren't ones I would have thought of using. I have wanted a new set of wheels for summer use any way, so this gives me the opportunity to build a wheel set that will support years of touring.
    "I will remain the stranger who came from a faraway land." Lance Armstrong

    "The more you drive, the less intelligent you become." Miller "Repo Man"

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,204
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    well it's kind of open question what makes a "bomb-proof" wheel when the weight on the wheel is unknown and the "fix" is based on unknown spokes and rims so I'd suggest a heavy rim with 36 butted or straight gauge spokes 3X on any mid priced hub. Seems to me if you've built lots of wheels that held up and this one didn't there must be something amiss with the spokes or the load. Were the spokes long enough on the wheel where they broke at the nipples?

    If you are heavy and carrying an especially heavy load it would be worth looking at 13g butted spokes on the rear wheel but the most important part is the build.

  13. #13
    Senior Member EKW in DC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    My Bikes
    Trek 830 Mountain Track Drop bar conversion
    Posts
    2,053
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    +1 for Velocity Dyads. My 36h Velocity Dyad rim on Deore LX hubs w/ straight 14 guage spokes has been great so far. I'm well into Clyde territory (closer to 300 than 200) and bought this wheel in January after having issues w/ two other wheels. I've put well over 1K miles on it now commuting and the odd weekend ride, and it's still as true as the day I got it.

    Takes wider tires, too, which is a plus in most touring cyclists' minds. I've got 35s on it now, and there's a lot of latitude both up and down in terms of tire width with it.

    I hope to do some touring on it this summer and feel quite comfortable doing so. It's good for my close to 300 lbs on the bike plus whatever I have in my rack trunk/panniers (sometimes a lot), so it should do well touring.
    Last edited by EKW in DC; 05-18-10 at 03:00 PM.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't buy the cartridge bearing thing. Lots of good hubs made that way, but with proper maintenance, well packed, unless you are tailing a submarine, the Shimano hubs should give good service in touring aps. Cartridge bearings are replaceable, but even the road serviceable ones require some stuff I would prefer not to carry compared to a cone wrench. Most aren't road serviceable. That said, Phil hubs are a good choice if you are in that price range.

    I don't know what was wrong with your wheel, but built of good components, stressed every way known, all spokes tested individually for tension, they should give high quality results. Just be sure whatever spoke brand you use comes credibly recommended for the hub you are choosing. One simple way is to just copy what Peter White uses. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com. But most good stores can tell you what works. Just make sure they have experience in your kind of use. My local store does a lot of touring and courier work and know what holds up.

  15. #15
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Everett, WA
    My Bikes
    CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
    Posts
    7,972
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    If you built the wheels yourself, perhaps you didn't use a tensiometer. Park makes a good one. It's not the rim or the number of spokes, it's just using butted spokes and a tensiometer to get them all tensioned right the first time. Having never broken a spoke in 10s of thousands of miles, including tandem miles on ordinary wheels, I just don't get it.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    East Tennessee
    My Bikes
    Rivendell--Sam Hilleborne, the only one I need.
    Posts
    153
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rich Lesnik, Hands on Wheels, Phil Wood hubs, A719 Mavic rims, and 36 DT Swiss spokes

  17. #17
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Denver, CO
    My Bikes
    Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
    Posts
    15,278
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by naisme View Post
    Any suggestions? Last year I rebuilt my rear wheel after busting 4 spokes, and rode all winter without incident. Friday busted a spoke. Would like to know the fix before getting out on tour and busting 4 spokes (not all at once).

    Better rims? 36 over 32 spokes? 4 cross over 3 cross? Any one?
    36 hole or more, 3 cross. Most everyone concentrates on the rims and hubs when wanting to build strong wheels. You could build the perfect wheel with the crappiest hub and rim or a crappy wheel with the best hub and rim. Choice of spoke is what makes the difference. The hub and rim are along for the ride, for the most part. The spokes do all the hard work. DT Alpine III are about the best choice for spokes on heavily loaded bikes. The extra thick elbow fills the hub hole so that the spoke can't move while the rim deforms during revolution. Less movement of the spoke means that the spoke elbow isn't stress as much and last longer. I've got Alpine III wheels that are heading towards 10+ years of hard mountain bike abuse and are still going strong.

    For hubs, Shimanos work well. Nothing wrong with them. If you search around you might even be able to find a 36 hole XTR with a titanium freehub body for cheap ($70 which is cheap for XTR). Look for 'non-disc' because the mountain bike crowd don't want them.

    On the other hand, Phil Wood hubs have some advantages over cup and cone hubs. Sealed bearings last forever without any maintenance. If the bearings go bad, you just replace them. The axles on the Phils are super strong and the field serviceable hubs require only two 5 mm allen wenches to completely disassemble. That's an advantage if you do have to replace a spoke because you can take the entire freehub body off without having to carry a lockring tool or hypercracker to remove the cassette. It's a huge plus! And the Phils are chock full of polished silvery goodness

    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    N. California
    Posts
    1,410
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My touring wheel build is Velocity Aeroheat rims, 36 DT Swiss Competition spokes, brass nipples, 3x, Shimano xt hubs.

    I will second the use of a tensiometer when building wheels. Also, check the wheels after about 100-500 miles after the build and tune them up if necessary.

  19. #19
    cyclopath vik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Victoria, BC
    My Bikes
    Surly LHT, Surly Big Dummy, Surly 1x1, Surly Pugsley, Bike Friday Tikit x 3, Bike Friday NWT, Bow Cycle 24, Santa Cruz Nomad
    Posts
    5,170
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by naisme View Post
    Any suggestions? Last year I rebuilt my rear wheel after busting 4 spokes, and rode all winter without incident. Friday busted a spoke. Would like to know the fix before getting out on tour and busting 4 spokes (not all at once).

    Better rims? 36 over 32 spokes? 4 cross over 3 cross? Any one?
    The strongest touring wheels I own are not dished and built with an IGH. A 32H non-dished rear wheel is as strong as 40H wheel using the same rim/spokes.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    South Bend, IN (U.S.A.)
    My Bikes
    Surly LHT; Surly CC (as fixed-gear commuter); Hunter CX; Dahon Mu Uno
    Posts
    416
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I just built mine with Velocity Dyad rims and 36 double-butted DT spokes. I used a non-disc XT hub for the rear and a Shimano hub generator for the front. I had only built four wheels before these, but I followed the instructions in a The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brant and used a tensionometer, and I'm confident these will hold up well (knock on wood). It really isn't very hard to get the wheels true and round, and to also have the spokes at uniform tension when you start with decent components.

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    "On the other hand, Phil Wood hubs have some advantages over cup and cone hubs. Sealed bearings last forever without any maintenance. If the bearings go bad, you just replace them."

    Which is exactly what you do with bearings on Shimano, a small envelop will carry a lifetime supply.

    "The axles on the Phils are super strong"

    This is an advantage, though it was mainly a result of a comon failure mode with freewheels. Advocating those tends to get on all kinds of derision these days. Though I have mostly riden bikes that used freewheels...

    " and the field serviceable hubs require only two 5 mm allen wenches to completely disassemble."

    Not really true. First it takes a lot more tools than that to redo the bearings, if this photo wiki is any indication.

    http://www.philwood.com/support/service-your-fsa-hub/

    Hammer pliers, 4 rather large wrenches, etc... They are FSA in the sense of not requiring a press to get the bearing in, but not in the sense of normal roadside repairs. For that loose bearings are the real field serviceable bearing.

    Phils are the obviously superior choice, and pretty reasonable in price, but there is a fair amount of swallowing the ad copy that goes along with them. The negs are:

    Bar stock is not a superior way of making a flange; very heavy cassette hub; not that easy to service; parts and tools can be specialized...

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    My Bikes
    Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil, '83 Specialized Stumpjumper
    Posts
    1,288
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    not that easy to service; parts and tools can be specialized...

    I could say that about Shimano hubs too though. Who wants to service cups and cones on the road ? ... or anywhere else for that matter. The only cup/cone hubs I trusted were vintage Campy ones, at least the races were replaceable if need be.

    To me , the only thing Shimano hubs have going for them is they are cheap. Shimano knows how to market, I'll give them that.

    I would suggest that wheels using hubs that are not completely rebuildable are not "bombproof". Now sure, many people on the forums say their XT hubs have lasted them many miles. I have no counter to that. I've read many reports of nwere Shimano hubs failing though.

    My criteria is different , as I have a 105 hub fail on me, and vowed to never use their hubs again, no matter how attractive the price was. I pay good money to have a professional build wheels for me, and I'll be dammed if I'm going to pay $400-800 for wheels and have the hub as the weak link. Granted ,I've been riding since the 70's ..... I don't have the time or desire to go messing with cups and cones anymore. I've been using cartdridge bearing hubs since 1983, the hubs came with my Stumpjumper. They'll last forever too. I understand though , many people don't care about durability anymore. Just keep buying more cheap hubs and life is grand.

    Phil hubs are so easy to take apart a kid could do it. they cost more, but it's a one time buy for the rest of your life. Pay me now, or pay me later

  23. #23
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Denver, CO
    My Bikes
    Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
    Posts
    15,278
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    "On the other hand, Phil Wood hubs have some advantages over cup and cone hubs. Sealed bearings last forever without any maintenance. If the bearings go bad, you just replace them."

    Which is exactly what you do with bearings on Shimano, a small envelop will carry a lifetime supply.
    What you do with bearings on a Shimano...or any cup and cone hub...is chase them around on the floor when you drop them, fiddle with the cones to get the play 'just right' so that you don't bind them when you tighten the quick release, and try to find the correct cones in Palukaville for you model of hub. Not all Shimano cones fit all Shimano hubs and off Shimano brands may not fit at all. Shimano has even done funky things like change the diameter of the axle so that the cones almost, but don't quite, fit

    Plus you'll need to carry cone wrenches, so kind of lockring remover and a spanner to use on the lock nut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    "The axles on the Phils are super strong"

    This is an advantage, though it was mainly a result of a comon failure mode with freewheels. Advocating those tends to get on all kinds of derision these days. Though I have mostly riden bikes that used freewheels...
    Strong axles are just peace of mind. Something you just don't need to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    " and the field serviceable hubs require only two 5 mm allen wenches to completely disassemble."

    Not really true. First it takes a lot more tools than that to redo the bearings, if this photo wiki is any indication.

    http://www.philwood.com/support/service-your-fsa-hub/

    Hammer pliers, 4 rather large wrenches, etc... They are FSA in the sense of not requiring a press to get the bearing in, but not in the sense of normal roadside repairs. For that loose bearings are the real field serviceable bearing.
    Take a look at this photo wiki to see what I mean. I have 2 sets of Phil FSC and FSA hubs. The FSC comes apart in your hand once you've remove end caps. That includes the outer bearings. I haven't tried removing the inner bearing (the one under the cassette body that Shimano doesn't even have). Yet another strength point for the Phils. And that's 2 5mm allen wrenches. Hardly 'large'. You could probably even use them to knock out the bearings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    Phils are the obviously superior choice, and pretty reasonable in price, but there is a fair amount of swallowing the ad copy that goes along with them. The negs are:

    Bar stock is not a superior way of making a flange; very heavy cassette hub; not that easy to service; parts and tools can be specialized...
    Phil Wood hubs don't seem to have a reputation for flange failure. Quite the opposite in fact. Weight weenies list a PW cassette hub at 430 g and Shimano hubs at 385 (105) to over 450g (LX)depending on model. Hardly a boat anchor when compared to other 'touring' hubs. (A 105 could be used as a touring hub but...)

    As for specialized parts and tools needed to service the hub, compared to what? Compatible bearings are widely available at autoshops, the bearings could be driven out with a rock if necessary (unlikely considering that you'd be replacing bearings where you could get them) and a pair of pliers or a crescent wrench could be used on the axle to remove the end cap. I don't carry cone wrenches on tour (I don't that many people do) and you can't service cup and cone hubs without one. I've tried. There just aren't thin enough wrenches out there to adjust them if you need to. Not without grinding down a box wrench at least. And I don't carry a grinder either
    Last edited by cyccommute; 05-26-10 at 03:51 PM.
    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

  24. #24
    Senior Member bhchdh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hampton Roads VA
    My Bikes
    '07 Trek 520, '10 Gary Fisher Triton, '04 Trek 8000, '85 Trek 500, '84 Trek 610, '85 Trek 510, '92 Trek Multitrack 700
    Posts
    1,558
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Phill Woods hubs sure look good but at $550 for a set ( front and rear cassttte ) I'll have to struggle along with my Shimanos. As an aside if you place a towel on the floor the loose bearings are easy to catch for disposal. I always use new bearings when I service a hub.
    Last edited by bhchdh; 05-26-10 at 04:14 PM.

  25. #25
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Queens, New York
    My Bikes
    Surly Disc trucker (DIY), Fuji Reveal 1.0 (DIY MTB), Specialized Roubaix
    Posts
    5,161
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    After lots of reading and asking around I ended up with these for my touring build:

    - Rims: Mavic A719, 36h
    - Front hub: Shimano Deore XT HB-M756 XT, 36h
    - Rear hub: Shimano Deore XT FH-M756 XT, 36h
    - Spokes: 2mm DT Alpine 3
    - Nipples: 2mm/12mm DT Swiss, brass
    - Cross 3 lacing

    It doesn't look like I'm gonna regret it. Phill Wood stuff is terribly expensive and way beyond my budget. Deore XT hubs are a combination of good value and strenght.

    A.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •