Student of design looking for feedback
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Student of design looking for feedback
Hi!
So, I'm a student of Industrial design. This semester I am looking at designing a pannier bag for commuting to work/gym/school. I was thinking of going in a multi-function direction. Please give me feedback on what is wanted and needed. As well as what you feel does and doesn't work. You are the guys with the experience!
How much is weight an issue?
Do you care about how it looks?
How do you feel about the panniers currently available in stores?
What's the magic cubic square inches of space needed for a 2 day-er?
I already got the waterproof thing down as a must have...
What else am I missing?!
I appreciate your time! Thank you for reading my post, and I hope to hear from you!
Helen
So, I'm a student of Industrial design. This semester I am looking at designing a pannier bag for commuting to work/gym/school. I was thinking of going in a multi-function direction. Please give me feedback on what is wanted and needed. As well as what you feel does and doesn't work. You are the guys with the experience!
How much is weight an issue?
Do you care about how it looks?
How do you feel about the panniers currently available in stores?
What's the magic cubic square inches of space needed for a 2 day-er?
I already got the waterproof thing down as a must have...
What else am I missing?!
I appreciate your time! Thank you for reading my post, and I hope to hear from you!
Helen
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Heel clearance. Durability. Easy on/off. Secure mount that won't bounce off. Stiff enough not to hit the spokes/derailleur. Visibility. Easy open/close. Easy to organize your stuff. Fit most available racks. Sufficient ground clearance. Ability to strap stuff to the outside. Easy to clean. Low wind resistance (front and side). Easy of transporting off the bike (for multimodal transport). Stand up by itself off the bike.
It's unlikely that any bag can meet all these objectives simultaneously.
Weight is an issue, more for some people than others. There could be endless debates on how important this is.
You say you are designing for commuting, but then also ask about a 2 day-er. Is this what you mean by multi-function?
It's unlikely that any bag can meet all these objectives simultaneously.
Weight is an issue, more for some people than others. There could be endless debates on how important this is.
You say you are designing for commuting, but then also ask about a 2 day-er. Is this what you mean by multi-function?
Last edited by John Nelson; 09-05-10 at 10:55 PM.
#3
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water-resistant or waterproof?...
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Many of us commuters have to wear "business casual" type clothes. I saw this company that makes cheap junk make a basically a luggage bag, a suit carrier, that would drape over a rear rack. The concept was great, and if the details could be dialed in, quality improved, it would be a wonderful product.
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There are some good existing waterproof panniers which provide an excellent place to start, but I'd suggest a few modifications to work better for commuters. (If the bags meet the needs of commuters, they will also work for students.)
1. Some good panniers have bolts or rivets on the inside. Cover those up. If a cyclist is packing good clothes, the clothes should not be able to catch on rivets or bolts.
2. We need to carry rough weather gear such as rain jackets and pants and we may have to get at these items at any time on our commutes. A separate compartment to keep the rain gear separate from the office wear may be a good idea.
3. Considering how many people carry laptop computers, it would be a good idea to incorporate a way of carrying a laptop without jarring it. I'd suggest some sort of appropriately padded laptop compartment in the right-side pannier. The reason is the right side is the chain side. If a cyclist has to lay the bike down, he or she will lay it down on the non-chain side.
4. Since commuters may need to carry work projects to and from work, the panniers must be sized to accommodate a binder or a file folder without damaging the file or its contents.
5. My touring panniers have a lot of reflective material on the rear. This is great for touring since it affords me some extra visibility there. However, commuting puts us into an entirely different system with traffic on all sides and many more intersections than we encounter on tours. Adding some bright reflective material to the sides of the panniers may be a useful safety feature.
6. If there's a way to quickly fasten the left and right panniers together, that would be useful. Some of us need to park our bikes and then take our panniers with us to another building or another part of the workplace.
1. Some good panniers have bolts or rivets on the inside. Cover those up. If a cyclist is packing good clothes, the clothes should not be able to catch on rivets or bolts.
2. We need to carry rough weather gear such as rain jackets and pants and we may have to get at these items at any time on our commutes. A separate compartment to keep the rain gear separate from the office wear may be a good idea.
3. Considering how many people carry laptop computers, it would be a good idea to incorporate a way of carrying a laptop without jarring it. I'd suggest some sort of appropriately padded laptop compartment in the right-side pannier. The reason is the right side is the chain side. If a cyclist has to lay the bike down, he or she will lay it down on the non-chain side.
4. Since commuters may need to carry work projects to and from work, the panniers must be sized to accommodate a binder or a file folder without damaging the file or its contents.
5. My touring panniers have a lot of reflective material on the rear. This is great for touring since it affords me some extra visibility there. However, commuting puts us into an entirely different system with traffic on all sides and many more intersections than we encounter on tours. Adding some bright reflective material to the sides of the panniers may be a useful safety feature.
6. If there's a way to quickly fasten the left and right panniers together, that would be useful. Some of us need to park our bikes and then take our panniers with us to another building or another part of the workplace.
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It's September, isn't it! The time of year that all the Industrial Design students come out of the woodwork and post on this forum. The Road Forum and General Cycling will have to brace themselves for the questions about designing aerobars for our hybrids, Big Gulp holders for our racing bicycles, and all the other ideas that tend to emerge from students who have never ridden bicycles before in their lives.
It's unfortunate that after we take the time to answer their questions, we never hear back from any of them telling us what they ended up designing.
If you're after ideas for "a pannier bag for commuting to work/gym/school", why post this here in Touring ... why not post in Commuting? Or Utility? Or Living Car Free? We're cycletourists over here ... and we use panniers quite differently than what would be used for commuting to work/gym/school.
Most of the time, when I have commuted, I have not bothered with panniers. I use a backpack (for short commutes) and a trunk bag for longer commutes. I ended up using mini-panniers (these, as a matter of fact: https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...7_10000_200350 ) just because I had bought them thinking they might work as front panniers for touring, but never ended up using them for that ... and figured I should use them for something. In all my commuting (short commutes and long) I did not ever need full-sized panniers.
I can roll a skirt, top, and underthings into a plastic bag and put that in one side with an emergency rain jacket ... and put some tools and my lunch in the other side, and I'm good to go.
If your idea is to create a pannier that could be used for commuting AND touring ... why not create a "zip-off" pannier. A large pannier, with a small top section and larger bottom section. The bottom section could be removed (zipped off) leaving just the smaller top section for commuting, or added (zipped on) for touring purposes.
Please let us know what you designed.
It's unfortunate that after we take the time to answer their questions, we never hear back from any of them telling us what they ended up designing.
If you're after ideas for "a pannier bag for commuting to work/gym/school", why post this here in Touring ... why not post in Commuting? Or Utility? Or Living Car Free? We're cycletourists over here ... and we use panniers quite differently than what would be used for commuting to work/gym/school.
Most of the time, when I have commuted, I have not bothered with panniers. I use a backpack (for short commutes) and a trunk bag for longer commutes. I ended up using mini-panniers (these, as a matter of fact: https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...7_10000_200350 ) just because I had bought them thinking they might work as front panniers for touring, but never ended up using them for that ... and figured I should use them for something. In all my commuting (short commutes and long) I did not ever need full-sized panniers.
I can roll a skirt, top, and underthings into a plastic bag and put that in one side with an emergency rain jacket ... and put some tools and my lunch in the other side, and I'm good to go.
If your idea is to create a pannier that could be used for commuting AND touring ... why not create a "zip-off" pannier. A large pannier, with a small top section and larger bottom section. The bottom section could be removed (zipped off) leaving just the smaller top section for commuting, or added (zipped on) for touring purposes.
Please let us know what you designed.
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Last edited by Machka; 09-06-10 at 03:15 AM.
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It's September, isn't it! The time of year that all the Industrial Design students come out of the woodwork and post on this forum. The Road Forum and General Cycling will have to brace themselves for the questions about designing aerobars for our hybrids, Big Gulp holders for our racing bicycles, and all the other ideas that tend to emerge from students who have never ridden bicycles before in their lives.
heh heh... mean but funny. For the record,Electra seems to have a hold on the Big Gulp market.
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And there really was one of these Industrial Design students last year or the year before who wanted to know if we wanted a Big Gulp holder on our racing bicycles. Maybe he modified his design and came up with that ^^.
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I for one would like to see several different exterior compartments for quick access. Different shapes and sizes.
Perhaps a hardcase pannier? One about the size of a lawyers briefcase?
Perhaps a hardcase pannier? One about the size of a lawyers briefcase?
#10
aka Phil Jungels
I dislike them asking us to do their research for them - and then never a followup. Good post Machka....
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I had some REI panniers that had springs to keep them from bouncing off the rack. In order to put them on or off you had to pull against the spring tension with the little nylon loops on the top. To get them off you had to give the loop a little jerk. They were fine for several years, but finally I gave one a jerk to pull it off the rack and the nylon strap broke. My son's cheap Nashbar Panniers have a similar arrangement. I doubt if they'll last too long.
I like my Ortlliebs' setup. There is no spring hold down. Instead there's a plastic protrusion on the bottom that keeps the pannier from bouncing outward, and the little hooks on top have spring-loaded catches that keep the panniers from bouncing up and off. It takes very little effort to release the springs (just the weight of the panniers is enough) so I never have to jerk on them. I think they'll stay intact for a long time.
I like my Ortlliebs' setup. There is no spring hold down. Instead there's a plastic protrusion on the bottom that keeps the pannier from bouncing outward, and the little hooks on top have spring-loaded catches that keep the panniers from bouncing up and off. It takes very little effort to release the springs (just the weight of the panniers is enough) so I never have to jerk on them. I think they'll stay intact for a long time.
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I think this is what is called "market research." If a person is going to design an item for "x" population, wouldn't it be wise to ask members of "x population" what would be useful to them?
Now, I agree with two points. The questions should be asked to the right audience and the designer should follow-up with the user population both during and following the design process.
HB.Watermelon - I think you need to consider exactly what population you want to design for. Commuters? Tourers? Or are you trying to offer an all-purpose option that overlaps populations? The old "keep it simple stupid" adage argues that the multi-purpose attempt might be an exercise in futility. So ask yourself: What purpose do I want with my design? Who am I trying to serve? Once you have answered those two questions, you'll have a better idea who to talk to.
Now, I agree with two points. The questions should be asked to the right audience and the designer should follow-up with the user population both during and following the design process.
HB.Watermelon - I think you need to consider exactly what population you want to design for. Commuters? Tourers? Or are you trying to offer an all-purpose option that overlaps populations? The old "keep it simple stupid" adage argues that the multi-purpose attempt might be an exercise in futility. So ask yourself: What purpose do I want with my design? Who am I trying to serve? Once you have answered those two questions, you'll have a better idea who to talk to.
#13
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I'm not sure that waterproofing is a *must have* if you're talking about the panniers themselves. I commute to work year round in Seattle; I like Arkel's commuting backpacks. They have a separate waterproof cover that I like more than having "waterproof" panniers.
However, I'm in a minority -- I think Ortlieb's waterproof panniers are the most popular brand of panniers I see around here.
However, I'm in a minority -- I think Ortlieb's waterproof panniers are the most popular brand of panniers I see around here.
#14
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Sure, but it would also be wise to do some research. There are about a million threads about panniers in the various fora here. Read them, see what comes up, over and over, and use that to come up with some idea of what the shortcomings of existing products are. Then come up with a few ideas, and ask what we think about those. Don't ask basic questions that have already been thrashed out. The OP seems to have done some homework, as he's got "it needs to be waterproof", but he's not gone to "here are some of my ideas", but is asking for ideas.
#15
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You need to design something new in a crowded marketplace with abundant products..
Good luck !
#9 is represented Here : https://www.brompton.co.uk/explorer/a...ndex.asp?bp=9#
See: the A Bag Set, [scroll down]
Leather Briefcase mounts on front of a transit/train friendly folding bike..
Waterproof ? O bag Made by Ortlieb for Brompton.
and a Carradice , UK product ..
https://www.calhouncycle.com/productc...idproduct=1832
Good luck !
#9 is represented Here : https://www.brompton.co.uk/explorer/a...ndex.asp?bp=9#
See: the A Bag Set, [scroll down]
Leather Briefcase mounts on front of a transit/train friendly folding bike..
Waterproof ? O bag Made by Ortlieb for Brompton.
and a Carradice , UK product ..
https://www.calhouncycle.com/productc...idproduct=1832
Last edited by fietsbob; 09-06-10 at 11:35 AM.
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Yes, yes. We are coming out of the woodwork! Bike for the hills!
My experience is mainly with mountain biking, and in town urban commuting. I posted in the touring section because you have had extensive experience with panniers. Whereas, they are a new idea to the urban commuter. They may not have had the same experiences as you. I value that experience from all sides as I am also talking with the commuter group as well!
I did not offer up any of my ideas for fear of 'tainting the pool' so to speak. Going to the users group is essential in any product research. Designing a product without knowing what is needed/wanted is frankly, stupidity at its finest. While your ideas are valuable, I am still in the research phase, and am looking for mainly feedback on performance and function of existing panniers. I should have been more clear in my original post.
If you are interested, I will try and keep you posted on my design progress. (We get loaded up on work fairly quickly, and it can be overwhelming toward the end of the semester.) Currently, I am researching the market and have not finalized any directions yet.
I appreciate your time and excellent feedback. Thank you!
Helen
My experience is mainly with mountain biking, and in town urban commuting. I posted in the touring section because you have had extensive experience with panniers. Whereas, they are a new idea to the urban commuter. They may not have had the same experiences as you. I value that experience from all sides as I am also talking with the commuter group as well!
I did not offer up any of my ideas for fear of 'tainting the pool' so to speak. Going to the users group is essential in any product research. Designing a product without knowing what is needed/wanted is frankly, stupidity at its finest. While your ideas are valuable, I am still in the research phase, and am looking for mainly feedback on performance and function of existing panniers. I should have been more clear in my original post.
If you are interested, I will try and keep you posted on my design progress. (We get loaded up on work fairly quickly, and it can be overwhelming toward the end of the semester.) Currently, I am researching the market and have not finalized any directions yet.
I appreciate your time and excellent feedback. Thank you!
Helen
Last edited by HB.Watermelon; 09-06-10 at 02:11 PM.
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It's September, isn't it! The time of year that all the Industrial Design students come out of the woodwork and post on this forum. The Road Forum and General Cycling will have to brace themselves for the questions about designing aerobars for our hybrids, Big Gulp holders for our racing bicycles, and all the other ideas that tend to emerge from students who have never ridden bicycles before in their lives.
And of course we will never see what they design, they have to move on towards the next curve ball the school throws at them.
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I respect industrial design, but I'm thinking this isn't the way good industrial design is done. I'm guessing that focus groups/spamming internet forums is how the mediocre industrial design is done.
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I'd modify that statement to "this is how 'passing grade projects' are completed in the least time expenditure and without reliance solely on one's own individual effort." Mediocre results aren't necessarily the case - I'm sure the results vary from the relatively ridiculous but "passing grade for creativity" to the sublime.
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the last industrial designer that I really remember was the guy that invented the laser "portable bike lane." I was all prepared to write him off as a clueless poseur until I tracked down his other work. Really impressive.
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To the original poster, if you go to a good bike shop and have a look at the panniers, rack trunks, backpacks and courier bags, you'll see quite an assortment of sizes, shapes and designs as well as materials used. You may also wish to check mec.ca and look for the link for cycling panniers. You'll see there's no one design that works for everyone. If you go to the Commuting, Utility or Living Car-Free forums here and ask your questions there, you'll find there are almost as many opinions as there are cyclists. Even here, among the touring cyclists, you'll find a lot of differing opinions about how to haul our gear when we're traveling.
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Wow, obviously some people don't have a clue just how hard being a student in design, any type, really is. Give the kid a break. Industrial designers, engineering students, architecture students, its not exactly easy.
And of course we will never see what they design, they have to move on towards the next curve ball the school throws at them.
And of course we will never see what they design, they have to move on towards the next curve ball the school throws at them.
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Wow, obviously some people don't have a clue just how hard being a student in design, any type, really is. Give the kid a break. Industrial designers, engineering students, architecture students, its not exactly easy.
And of course we will never see what they design, they have to move on towards the next curve ball the school throws at them.
And of course we will never see what they design, they have to move on towards the next curve ball the school throws at them.
part of the process is to produce a presentation of what they have done, it wouldn't be that hard to give feedback. I've lurked a little on industrial design forums, students are posting their designs all the time, they just don't do it here.
I respect industrial design, but I'm thinking this isn't the way good industrial design is done. I'm guessing that focus groups/spamming internet forums is how the mediocre industrial design is done.
I respect industrial design, but I'm thinking this isn't the way good industrial design is done. I'm guessing that focus groups/spamming internet forums is how the mediocre industrial design is done.
There are students that come in here every year asking these questions, and I cannot think of one of them who came back and told us what they ended up doing. It sort of seems like we do their homework for them and, having acquired the information they need to get that passing grade, they're off never to return again. It almost makes me wonder if they dropped out of the course or something.
Part of the reason I answer these threads is because I am interested to see what sort of creation these students might come up with ... I'm hoping that one day one will come back and show us what they ended up with. And it would be very interesting to be able to give some feedback on how useful it might be in real world situations.
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#24
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To the original poster, if you go to a good bike shop and have a look at the panniers, rack trunks, backpacks and courier bags, you'll see quite an assortment of sizes, shapes and designs as well as materials used. You may also wish to check mec.ca and look for the link for cycling panniers. You'll see there's no one design that works for everyone. If you go to the Commuting, Utility or Living Car-Free forums here and ask your questions there, you'll find there are almost as many opinions as there are cyclists. Even here, among the touring cyclists, you'll find a lot of differing opinions about how to haul our gear when we're traveling.
Yes, and once some of this preliminary research has been completed, the OP might be able to narrow down his/her ideas and ask some specific, meaningful questions.
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How do you know they are a kid ? Also, no matter how much work is being thrown at them I find it hard to believe it would be difficult to post a few updates on the result. I run a blog(sadly nothing to do with cycling), online business, go to school and post on forums, along with cycle touring Not exactly hard to post online.