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  1. #1
    eternalvoyage
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    Ray Jardine's Collision (and how to avoid such incidents)

    Jardine's accident is described here, at day 48:

    http://www.rayjardine.com/adventures...nsAm/index.htm

    (There are options near the bottom of the screen; the pictures show up better for me when I choose 'Next 10' rather than 'All Pages'.)

    Day 51 has a picture of the curve.

    Why wouldn't he have heard the truck coming?

    What else could he have done to avoid something like this?

    Ian Hibell and Ken Kifer were among those killed as a result of vehicles colliding with them.

    What else can all of us do to avoid these sorts of things? (Both for the specific type of situation Ray Jardine was in, and more generally?)
    Last edited by Niles H.; 12-15-10 at 04:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BengeBoy's Avatar
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    Niles: why don't you start us out w/your perspective on what the cyclist could have done to avoid being hit by an inattentive driver?

    I'd be interested in your perspective since you saw something interesting in this.

    I saw this as yet another case of a driver plowing into an experienced cyclist.

  3. #3
    eternalvoyage
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    Quote Originally Posted by BengeBoy View Post
    Niles: why don't you start us out w/your perspective on what the cyclist could have done to avoid being hit by an inattentive driver?

    I'd be interested in your perspective since you saw something interesting in this.

    I saw this as yet another case of a driver plowing into an experienced cyclist.
    Thanks for this reply. When I get more time, I will post more.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Cyclebum's Avatar
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    Reading Ray's report and looking at the picture, I'd say there was nothing he could have done to prevent the guy running over him. Except stay home. Total miracle Ray is alive and not maimed for life.

    My opinion of the truck driver really shouldn't be shared in a public forum.

    I have taken to wearing either very bright jerseys or a safety vest to protect the motoring public from the inconvenience of running over me. Figure I own them that much. Ray's assailant didn't bother to be inconvenienced.
    The bicycle is one of the great inventions of mankind. Delights children, challenges young men to feats of daring, and turns old men into boys again.--Me

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    Mountaineers of his generation had a different attitude about this kind of thing, not sure about how the moderns think. The classic book divided dangers into objective and subjective. In mountaineering terms objective dangers are things like rockfall that you don't control, and subjective dangers are things that you do control, like your training level preparation, decisions, etc... Both categories are still your responsibility, since if you know there is avalanche danger you can still take steps, even if you don't control everything that culminates in an avalanche.

    Ray says he knew that there was particular danger in this corner, yet about the only active thing he did was use rear view mirrors. Personally I don't find those useful, I wish I did. He also took steps to make himself more visible, which is reasonable, but also where stuff like target fixation is concerned, can make maters worse.

    Following the accident he took more aggressive steps, both in route, and positioning on the roads. These are steps that he felt were helpful in the post accident state of mind, but was not prepared to take earlier.

    It is interesting that Ray does not really know what happened, or waste a lot of his blog railing at the driver. If your approach is that the other guy is always responsible, then you are giving up on doing anything about your own safety, which is always in your own hands. For instance, it is interesting that he thought his goal was more important than his safety or pleasure when it came to riding roads he clearly did not enjoy. Why was he even there? A few years back I had to quit on a trip, about a day from the end. It was clearn my riding was damaging my right knee, in the wind and hills I was going through. I have a badly shattered right knee, so I don't even know how good it is, or what will tip it into permanent arthritis. I thought it was logical to quit. I was devastated when I did quit though. I had huge emotional baggage connected with quitting, that I did not expect would hit me, until I quit. Thank goodness I had done the ride before.

    I have had a bunch of accidents that were preceded by very strong warnings, but it is interesting how often one ignores these things. I don't think most people are really in touch with that stuff. I have had strong retrospective experiences, but they were not sufficient at the time to actually obey.

  6. #6
    Senior Member balto charlie's Avatar
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    Rays a lucky man. I have an uphill curve just like his on my daily commute. This curve's hazards are compounded by the long straight-away that precedes it. I make myself very visible(lime green vest, lots of flashing lights) but still make haste when I ride it. I always take the lane. I figure if they are going to hit then so be it. If they pass(and they do!) I make them cross the double yellow to do so. When they pass me I am looking ahead for other cars and ready to bailed off road into the woods if need be. This area often has single car accidents, yellow tape drapes many trees and bushes. I have no other options for a better commute. My lab moves next years and my ride will be much less serious. I won't miss this curve.

  7. #7
    eternalvoyage
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    One aspect that caught my interest was Jardine's description of using the mirrors. While it is true that you can't be looking in the mirror all the time, I am not fully satisfied with that perspective. You can be more attentive in dangerous or critical situations. You can have a good mirror that is properly positioned (near the eye for a larger field of view, for example). You can optimize it, and not be satisfied with middle of the road performance in this area.

    Some kind of improved system might even be worth considering, since many people find this sort of thing to be important to safety. Heinz Stücke and Friedel talk about this in their interview. Both of them find the mirror to be very important. So why not optimize it, or even improve on it?

    Some cars have wide-angle rear-view mirror systems. Some cars have an LCD screen that shows what is behind the car. Something along these lines, some kind of improved display, for cyclists, could be mounted below a helmet visor. Heads-up displays might work. There could be an app like this. There could also be some smart features, like a warning sound when a truck is too far over.

    ***
    Ray mentions having felt that this was a dangerous curve, before going into it. I wonder if such situations might be handled differently. The only time I was struck by a vehicle, I had the feeling I shouldn't be doing this, shortly before the collision; but I plowed ahead anyway. Looking back, it would have been very easy to pull over for a time -- an hour or even two hours -- to let the traffic die down. It was not worth the risk, and what's the hurry, and why put yourself in that kind of danger so unnecessarily, especially when the potential consequences are serious, and the intuition is sending off warning signals?

    ***
    I can't help wondering why (or whether) he didn't hear it coming, and why he didn't check it out if he did hear it. I have noticed recently, though, that when one's mind is strongly occupied with some thought (or it might be something else that is strongly occupying it), one can miss things, as if the brain is filtering them out, or blotting them out.

    Keeping the awareness clear of these sorts of things might help.

    ***
    Waving arms (or a waving left arm) might help in certain situations. Lights that are bright enough to be seen well in daylight might also help (some local cyclists use these, and they do seem to work in drawing some extra attention -- I noticed this from inside a car recently).

    A lot of cars and trucks cut corners a bit. They often go over the white line, and even off the pavement with their right tires, when driving through these sorts of right curves.
    Last edited by Niles H.; 12-16-10 at 04:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Cyclebum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niles H. View Post

    I have noticed recently, though, that when one's mind is strongly occupied with some thought (or it might be something else that is strongly occupying it), one can miss things, as if the brain is filtering them out, or blotting them out.
    Most likely reason for the accident. Ray did not register with the trucker. Did the trucker even know that he had hit Ray? Might explain why he didn't stop. Might not.
    Last edited by Cyclebum; 12-16-10 at 06:43 PM.
    The bicycle is one of the great inventions of mankind. Delights children, challenges young men to feats of daring, and turns old men into boys again.--Me

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    I think what would work better than mirrors are CCTV, that stuff is getting cheaper all the time, smaller and less energy hungry. I would rather look at a display on my bars than use the mirror. What I don't like about the mirrors is the differential focal length. And over time. CCTV would do more to get the attention of potential hit and run drivers than anything else I can think of. A lot of truck use some kind of RFI technology for tolls and taxes. There ought to be a way to collect that kind of info also. We don't need that all the time, but on heavy sections it might help. Right now, you hit a cyclist and you are anonymous or forgiven.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Nigeyy's Avatar
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    I think it's hard to evaluate the situation -even Ray admittedly isn't clear about it.

    What could have been done differently aside from not being there? I'm not sure. It sounds like the classic case of a distracted/out of control driver, and fundamentally whether we like it or not, there isn't much you can do in many of those situations.

    Yes, making sure you are visible (doesn't mean that a badly distracted driver will see you or an out of control or bad driver will not miss you though) can help.
    Yes, knowing what's coming behind you (but when do you decide after a glance in the mirror it's time to bail?) can help you with an avoidance move.
    Yes, knowing if the road is a bad one so you can avoid it or plan around it (but when you are touring, oftentimes you don't know about a road until you're on it -what do you do, go back? Press on?)
    Yes, taking primary position can help (but it sounds like this road might not have been suitable for that).
    Yes, anticipating the driver (but you can't be 100% psychic on this one)

    Ultimately, when you are on a bike, you are at the mercy of other drivers on the road (you can't read or prepare for everything with 100% successful avoidance). Sure, you can do things to reduce the risk, but you can't eliminate it -I think you have to accept it, minimize what *you* can through appropriate clothing/equipment, anticipation, positioning, planning, speed, etc.... and ride. Even then, we're still human. After all, if you don't do anything because of risks, you'll end up doing nothing.

    Ray, if you are reading this, I'm so glad you made it, that was one close call. It's worrying that truck driver is out there -one that was (choose any one or more): i. inattentive enough to not see you, ii. not in control of the vehicle round the corner, iii. doesn't realize when they hit someone and even if they do, iv. didn't bother to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    What I don't like about the mirrors is the differential focal length.
    All of the helmet- or glasses-mounted mirrors I've seen are flat, in which case I believe there is no focal length involved. And a very small rotation of the head results in a quite wide field of undistorted vision. While CCTV might be a more elegant solution it's also pretty "far-out" from an economic standpoint!

    Regards,
    Bob P.

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    The focal length thing is lets say you are looking at the road in front, scanning for potholes, and then you crank a look at the mirror and all of a sudden you are looking 100 yards behind. Possibly one gets distracted and actually sees the mirror. This was a few years back, and I was just starting to need reading glasses, but didn't realize it yet, so maybe it was a personal thing.

    I don't really believe the CCTV thing is all that crazy, Bowhunters have these things called trail cameras and they start around 70 bucks and shoot a pic of every animal that walks past. Every car would be a lot, but the cost of cameras keeps going down... I think the idea that everything is being recorded would have a serious effect. A video on a loop that is impact sensitive. Barbie has her own video, it's about time cyclists, stepped up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1 View Post
    The focal length thing is lets say you are looking at the road in front, scanning for potholes, and then you crank a look at the mirror and all of a sudden you are looking 100 yards behind. Possibly one gets distracted and actually sees the mirror. This was a few years back, and I was just starting to need reading glasses, but didn't realize it yet, so maybe it was a personal thing.

    I don't really believe the CCTV thing is all that crazy, Bowhunters have these things called trail cameras and they start around 70 bucks and shoot a pic of every animal that walks past. Every car would be a lot, but the cost of cameras keeps going down... I think the idea that everything is being recorded would have a serious effect. A video on a loop that is impact sensitive. Barbie has her own video, it's about time cyclists, stepped up.
    Actually, there is a rear view cycling camera available! Or at least it will be available starting next year. Looks to be exactly what many of you were talking about... films what's going on behind you, but has an impact sensor that saves the video of you getting hit. The only downside... it's NOT cheap.

    http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/10/12/...ling-computer/

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    I could be totally wrong here as this is just conjecture. However, I would hazard the guess that Ray was traveling too slowly for that stretch of road. Maybe he had to to accommodate his riding partner, I just don't know. When one is 4000 miles into a "goal" trip, one is not likely to be as attentive to the environmental cues as normal. The only way that I can understand his not seeing or hearing the truck that hit him is that he was either in the curve for an extremely long time or he was not focusing his attention on what was overtaking him. Both of these things could prove hazardous to one's health.

    By the way, was he on an ACA route? I can't believe anyone would put that roadway on a recommended route for cyclists.

  15. #15
    Fred-ish rogerstg's Avatar
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    This thread is helpful. On a road like that with multi lanes traveling in the same direction and no significant paved shoulder - I'll probably be taking the lane. On a similar but two lane road, I'd consider riding the other side of the road on a long uphill stretch like that.

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    That camera looks cool. It's expensive, but not all that expensive. I think it needs to be under 150 to catch on. Given the rampant fear some people have it would be worth it. I have often thought a toilet paper tube and a blinking red led light indicating camera on would get a lot of attention. Actually they have these fake security cameras...

    There is a lot of existing tech. Think of those babysitter systems. It could be an anti **** system. Just a spy cam that connects to an iphone. Ideally it it uploads the info so you can't be hit and then the camera just gets stolen.

    I hate people who cycle on the wrong side of the road. And I hate meeting them on the road coming the other way. But I have to admit it could be a good strategy in a place where you could ditch, but there isn't really enough road room, and all depends on getting the info soon enough. I remember one noteworthy close call when an 18 wheeler couldn't stop, and went around a car, accross the 2 way bike lane, into a ditch, and miraculously back up into the lane. Had I been 50 yards nearer he would have creamed me. But at least I could see him coming. Now I wish I had that scenario on video!
    Last edited by NoReg; 12-17-10 at 08:50 AM.

  17. #17
    eternalvoyage
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    It was interesting to see that cerevellum device.

    I wonder if something could be done with a netbook computer mounted on a handlebar bag? Or some other device (iPod, iPad, tablet, etc., maybe even a cell phone or a digital camera's screen? Or two devices communicating with each other -- one facing back, one on the bars)?

    Also, there are virtual displays that look like a pair of dark glasses. Some of them give you a heads-up-display effect.

    Just went over to this article, and found a reference to motorcycle helmets and other examples,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Holog...s-124463.shtml

    There must be some way to do this that would keep it small and simple. Maybe the in-glasses versions? That way you wouldn't even have to look down at a screen, and could keep your eyes on the road. Having all the information right there seems like a good approach.

    An LCD screen mounted up and out a bit, like the speedometer on a Prius, so you could catch what is happening with (near-)peripheral vision while looking out ahead, might also be good. Looking down just slightly would be relatively easy, and would still allow you to keep some effective peripheral vision active for looking ahead. This seems better than having to look way down at a screen and losing or sacrificing more of the visual field ahead.

    ***
    (There was a film that had interesting examples of a heads-up display that was constantly refreshing the information coming in. Maybe there are clips at video.google.com or youtube.com?)

    ***
    A well-positioned mirror, very close to the eye is the simplest and most effective thing I have found so far. The Take A Look can be positioned like this, and is very adjustable. It's actually pretty close to the above in performance, but much simpler. (I wonder if a partially mirrored surface might also have some possibilities here, functioning as a simpler, analog version of a heads-up display?)

    There are some reviews here,

    http://www.rei.com/product/752285

    http://www.amazon.com/Bike-Peddler-C.../dp/B001VTQNVO

    In my experience, it works much better when positioned very close to the eye -- it has much larger field of view, and it is easy to look back and see what is happening there.

    I still wonder if there might be some way to turn it into a heads-up display, maybe using more than one mirror, like a periscope, and having the last mirror be like a cross between a mirror and a clear piece of glass. Or it could be mounted slightly up, like a wide rear-view mirror in a car. It could also be movable, and used in a stronger position in dangerous situations. It could also be built into a helmet -- a kind of rear-periscope helmet. Or maybe some combination or variation on these approaches?
    Last edited by Niles H.; 12-17-10 at 04:32 PM.

  18. #18
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    Here's another idea on the driver...maybe he was suffering from road fatigue? There's absolutely no excuse for what happened or his leaving the scene of an accident, but who knows how long he'd already been on the road and whether or not he was even concentrating. How many times have any of us been driving when we should have pulled over for a quick nap or stopped for a quick caffeine jolt because we'd been driving too long on a boring stretch of road?

    I guess my point is that in a battle of metal vs flesh, we're going to lose so we have to do everything possible to be seen. Unfortunately, that's not always going to be enough because no matter how cautious you are, you can't force the driver to be alert.

    I'm glad that this has a happy ending.
    Last edited by dengidog; 12-17-10 at 05:21 PM. Reason: added more comments

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    Quote Originally Posted by dengidog View Post
    Here's another idea on the driver...maybe he was suffering from road fatigue? There's absolutely no excuse for what happened or his leaving the scene of an accident, but who knows how long he'd already been on the road and whether or not he was even concentrating. How many times have any of us been driving when we should have pulled over for a quick nap or stopped for a quick caffeine jolt because we'd been driving too long on a boring stretch of road?

    I guess my point is that in a battle of metal vs flesh, we're going to lose so we have to do everything possible to be seen. Unfortunately, that's not always going to be enough because no matter how cautious you are, you can't force the driver to be alert.

    I'm glad that this has a happy ending.
    Maybe it was more than road fatigue. As you say, there is no telling how long he had been behind the wheel. Believe it or not, there are still trucking firms that allow drivers to use paper log books. This guy may have been on hour 30 (and running three log books), thus he would definitely not want to stick around for the inevitable consequences of that.

    Of course, this is pure conjecture, but it is hard to think of anything that even partially explains how someone can leave another person for dead after causing the damage.

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    It's pretty simple, he didn't know he hit him I mean he didn't destroy Ray, or the bike, and banged up another's hand. That isn't necessarily going to register. Unless he knew for sure nobody other than the victims saw him, he was taking a heck of a risk not staying around, even assuming he didn't care. These days, I would imagine he was playing X-box.

    I was Xmas shopping today, and that toy Airhog thing that is a movie camera built into a helicopter is down to only 50 bucks. Obviously they figure it's sexy and the market is huge. Still, it shows what can be done with a little technology, on the cheap. The key thing isn't seeing the truck it's the truck fearing the cyclist. CCTV ca do that. Even if you see the vehicles in your rear view, I doubt it does that much good. They come up real fast, so unless you are never looking ahead, and I think stats show side impacts are a bigger deal, from cross streets, then you are going to miss a lot of vehicles doing a nearly a hundred feet a second. Also they aren't always visible if they are back on curves etc... And when the road gets tight, they are going to pass so close it will be impossible to judge which ones are too close.

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    I've wondered if the flashing LCD's could flash to the right (or left) onto the road, except they would have to be brighter in the daytime (perhaps on approach of a vehicle)... that way they would see you earlier on a bend.

  22. #22
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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    I've never heard of Ray Jardine before, but I know now that he's one the luckiest people around!

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    Even before this. He is the inventor of Friends, and was a top rock climber in the 80s, he is probably the biggest guy behind ultalite camping, though that is hardly a new idea. He has done a lot of extreme trips. So his ruggedness is hard earned.

    http://www.jerberyd.se/climbing/climbers/jardine/

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    What could be done?

    OK I admit I live in New Jersey. Narrow, congested roads traveled by inattentive drivers. I commute and it is an everyday concern. I do everthing I can to make myself visible. Having survived several encounters with cars I have come to some conclusions. I can only do what I can do to make myself as visible and noticable for a driver. If a driver is distracted there is nothing I can do but pray. Every person who hit me says the same thing, I never saw him. I am 6'4" 240 pounds typical dressed in bright yellow or the like. How is that possible? The driver was not mentally present.

    From my experience and what I read on the blog something I would have done differently. I would have been in traffic. Yes I know its crazy but if I am in the line of site I can be seen. I would force drivers to go around me. Narrow condition a driver focuses on the road if I am to the side of it I am likely to be unseen. FYI in NJ if there is no road shoulder the law indicates that I should ride 3 feet from the edge of the road.

    By the way texting and driving scares me to death. I am surprised it was not mentioned earlier. If I was a betting man I would say the driver was texting. If I am in my car or on my bike I see this as the most dangerous thing on the road even more so the drinking. It is far more prevelent and most likely being done by the least experienced drivers.

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    +1 on the texting, that was what I meant when I said he was probably playing x-box. That is the latest horror, and it is common around (Ontario) here even after having been banned.

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