LuckyLyndy

I know it would be cheaper to just buy the complete bike, but how much more would it be to do it. Basically this is a question of frame swap.
I was about to pull the trigger on a Surly Long Haul Trucker, when some people here mentioned that the Soma Saga's frame is very similar to the LHT. I have looked at the specs, and they do look similar on the frame sizes: 50, 52, and 54cm.
But looking at photos, the head tube of the LHT looks longer/larger than the Saga
head tube? Anybody have input on that? This would be very important to me, as I want that more upright touring position.
So buying similar gear for the Soma, and adding labor (I can do small stuff, but not a complete build), what do you guys think would be the difference in cost? They are selling out last year's Saga frames at around $385 to $400.
I'll post some links for reference below if that helps.
Thanks!
Lyndon
Soma Soga
https://www.somafab.com/geometry03.html
you have to scroll to the middle, it is both in inches and mm

Surly LHT
https://www.surlybikes.com/frames/lon...trucker_frame/

Surly Complete Bike Spec sheet
https://www.surlybikes.com/bikes/long...cker_complete/

And a series of better photos of the Soma frameset
https://www.renaissancebicycles.com/s...=17&gallery=46

Uosdwis R Dewoh

I can speak to this pretty extensively. My roommate and I are planning a fully loaded tour this summer; he went with the stock LHT and I chose to design and build up around a Soma Saga frameset. His LHT, not including racks, pedals, and other accessories, came out to about $1000. Add his SPD pedals, Blackburn racks, and chromoplastic fenders, it will probably come out to about 1200 to 1250 built out.

I chose to build my own because I knew if I bought a stock LHT I would want to switch out the wheels, saddle, and handlebars anyway, which would put me beyond the cost of designing my own build around the Saga frame. Not to say the build is inadequate at all - I'm just picky about components. I ended up spending about $1400 including labor, racks, and pedals (but not including panniers, bar bag, etc). I just recently had a lot of help from the LBS putting it together and I love it. Here are the specs of my build if you're interested.

Soma Saga Frame/fork
Tubus Tara Front Rack
Rackit Tour-it Rear Rack
Crank bros Candy 2 Pedals
Wheelset (Mavic A719, XT hubs, spokes)
Sugino XD600 Triple Crankset (48-36-26)
Shimano BB UN54 68x113mm
Front derail: Shimano 105 triple
Rear derail:Shimano Shadow XT Rear Derailleur - SGS - Long Cage
SRAM PG-950 9-Speed Cassette
Dimension Threadless 26.0 Road Stem
Nitto noodle bar
Cane Creek S-3 1-1/8" Silver Threadless
kalloy 27.2 x 300mm seatpost
Dia-Compe Silver Bar End Shifter
Dia tech 287 Aero Brake Lever Linear pull Pair Silver
Avid SD-7 V brakes
SKS Longboard Fenders
Tires (Schwalbe Marathon Plus)
Deda Bar tape
SRAM 9 spd Chain


I should note that I spent a significant amount of time finding the best deals on a lot of these components, between closeout sales on NOS items, eBay, and craigslist. If I had spent full retail on all of these items, I imagine the cost would have been closer to 2000. The point is, you can do a custom build for a reasonable amount of money, but prepare to put the time in to find what you want for decent prices.

If you have any questions on my build or where to get good deals on specific components, let me know! Building this bike was a huge learning experience for me and I'm happy to share what I learned during the process with anyone else who's interested.

LuckyLyndy

Thank you, U, for that comprehensive reply.
And you were not kidding that you haunted the on line deals for all those parts.
Holy cow!

One thing I wanted to ask you about is the head tube difference between the frames.
Is the one on the LHT longer than the one on the Soma?
How about the quality of the welds and paint job on the Soma vs. the Surly?

I really appreciate your detailed response. Muchas Gracias!
Lyndon

LuckyLyndy

Well, that is not a good policy. U, I can't send you an email because I am 4 short of being "allowed" to do that. Nor a PM. So if you want to send me a note, or post here it would be appreciated.
Thanks for the detailed post.
How is the Soma Saga build? Did you find a good source for the Saga frame and fork?
Also, I want to order with the steering tube uncut. Is that possible anywhere?

Lyndon

Uosdwis R Dewoh

We have equivalent sized frames (his is the 56 cm LHT and mine is the "effective" size 56 Saga). The headtubes look pretty damn close in size, but I busted out the tape measure to be sure. The headtube on the Saga is 19.5 cm and the LHT is 18.5 cm, so the Saga is actually a tad longer. The angles look identical, but I'm not positive about that. We both have a stack of spacers for more upright riding (I have lower back problems so I don't like a super aggressive riding position). My seat is probably about 1 cm below my bars and I think my stem is 80 mm at a slight upward angle. I haven't encountered any back pain with this setup. Looking at the two bikes side by side, though, I don't think the Saga is significantly more upright than the LHT. It kind of depends on the setup.

As for the welds and paintjob (at least visually), the Saga takes it hands down. The LHT has a nice enough paint job but the welds show a bit of the "toothpaste effect". The welds on the Saga look super clean and the paint is nice and sturdy. I helped the mechanic machine the threads and what not, and I could tell just by sanding the edges of the braze-ons that the paint job is serious. It seems like there are two significant layers of paint, with a lighter blue primer or something under the navy bluish exterior. I've heard from other Saga owners that the paint holds up well. Then again, I have friends with LHTs with a few thousand miles on them and the paint still looks really good.

In terms of attractiveness, the Saga is easily the better looking frame. My LBS mech says Saga makes better frames than Surly, but I can't say for sure. I think they are pretty equivalent. I just like the way my paint and welds look a lot better

I'll pull out the digital camera sometime in the next day or two and see if I can show you a visual comparison of the two.

I bought the frame from Outdoor Outfitters and had it in less than a week. The steering tube is uncut on all new frame/fork sets, as far as I know.

LuckyLyndy

Excellent!
I also want that more upright position for touring.
And thanks for the tape measure, as photos sure can be deceiving. Could I be fooled because the LHT top tube is more traditional vs. the downward sloping of the Saga? Since you posted, I was looking at other BF members and their Saga builds. It looks like a lot of seat tube post showing on many of them. I'm 5'7", with a standover height of about 28+. I do not have a long reach. I was thinking about the 50 or the 52cm frameset. Your thoughts on sizing? The local guys were trying to put me on a 54 cm LHT, but I thought the top tube was too long and put me into too long of a stretch.
Lyndon

Uosdwis R Dewoh

I think visually it's a little deceiving because the Saga has a seriously fat head tube. I think the circumference is 1-2 cm bigger than the LHT head tube. The sloping top tube could have something to do with it too, but I think it's just the freakish head tube.

As for sizing the Saga, I'd go for the equivalent of the LHT. Honestly these two bikes feel exactly the same to me sizewise, despite some minor variations between the frames. I am 5'10.5" with 31.5" inseam and if the size 56 Saga were any bigger, I'd have to go a size down to be comfortable. I have a long torso too, so I went for the Saga with a longer top tube. Basically, if you feel too stretched out on a 54 cm LHT, I doubt a size 54 Saga will ride much different. You'll be more upright on a smaller frame too.

Either way, you have more than 2 cm of play between different stems and moving the saddle fore/aft.

LuckyLyndy

Thanks, U. I was going in for another fitting this weekend, as a local bike shop just received some built up 50 and 52 LHT's, but was derailed by a visit to the ER with a gall bladder attack. Not fun.
So I will remember your comment about sizing. I would assume the standover height would be less important with the sloping top tube on the Saga. I looked at your frame source, Outdoor Outfitter, and maybe there are two different companies. We have several of their stores in Utah, but they don't post on line as carrying any bike frames. Was it special order?

Correction: Outside Outfitter, my bad!

Bacciagalupe

I wouldn't worry about head tube length. You're much better off sticking to geometry specs than a photo.

I have no doubt that either bike can get the bars as high as you want. Don't forget, the LHT has a very long fork when uncut, and you can put tons of spacers on there.

Otherwise, I'd say that if you plan to be very particular about the components, go custom. If 90% of the LHT has the components you want, stick with that and swap out the parts. If you want to save money, definitely buy a stock bike.

LuckyLyndy

True, dat! Bacciagalupe.

xyzzy834

You can get this year's frame and fork for $369.99 from Outside Outfitters. That's where I got mine. If they don't list your size or are out of stock, call them up. They were happy to order a frame from their supplier and deliver it to me. I cost less than $20 to ship it to me in Ohio.

This year's frame is pretty much the same as last year's, but with an awesome flat crown lugged fork, a real (but far cry from Rivendell quality) head badge, and nicer graphics.

BigBlueToe

I purposely didn't keep track of the amount I spent building up my LHT frame, but I know it was considerably more than a complete would have cost. I didn't cut corners on components; I wanted a bike that would be reliable, solid, and smooth-running.

Cost is the downside of buildling yourself.

The reasons I do it (I'm presently building up my 5th frame) are:

1. I find it easier to spend a small amount each month, rather than come up with the cost of a complete bike all at once. (This is only possible if you're not in a huge hurry to ride the bike. That's hard for me, but I do have other bikes to ride during the process.)
2. I have control over all the components. I get exactly what I want without having to switch out the components that come on the complete.
3. I get more "intimate" with my bike (careful!) I know how every part goes on. This gives me more confidence that I can fix things if they malfunction while I'm out on tour.
4. I learned a lot when I did the first build. With every subsequent build I learn a little more, especially when I use components I haven't used before.
5. I have an excuse to buy tools.
6. It's fun!

cyccommute 

Almost all true reasons for building a frame. Notice low cost isn't one of them. I doubt that Uosdwis R Dewoh's list includes taxes, shipping and the cost of spending time chasing down parts on Fleabay, prowling bike shop back rooms, Craigslist or nefarious late night scavenging

I've gone this route with numerous bikes. It's not about cost, it's about all those things that BigBlueToe lists.

Uosdwis R Dewoh

The cost actually does include taxes and shipping. I was able to bundle a lot of my purchases from places like Tree Fort Bikes which has an incredible selection, an awesome instant price match policy, free shipping over $125, and no taxes for Virginia folk. Of course it does not include the cost of the time I spent piecing her together, but that's all part of the fun! A hell of a lot more fun than whatever else I would have been doing at the time... (writing my masters thesis, ahem... )

You're also correct about nefarious late night scavenging. Hospital bills, bail, and court fees are not included in the $1400 price tag

EDIT: If you go the Saga route, have your LBS carefully check the frame alignment. My mechanic had to do some minimal cold setting to get the rear spacing perfect and slightly realign the rear triangle. Not sure where it was knocked around between Taiwan and VA, but something to look out for.

LuckyLyndy

Good stuff, U!
Of course, we can't include those items.
And +1 on Tree Fort. I've used them as well.

I agree that for most, it should be the build and not the cost. But I've also got to watch my pennies.
I also need to winnow the herd and have never sold anything on eprey, CL, etc.
I thought that eprey had jacked up the initial costs so much, it hindered low item sellers.
I have a Bridgestone MB-1, and a Downtube folding bike, that I would like to sell this spring.
Lyndon

NoReg

There is a third option which is to work with an LBS and get stuff swapped in or even use some of your own parts. I don't think that would work with an LHT complete, it might work with the QBP speced version. Doing this online with a nice guy like Spicer, might prove cheap, you would be outside that retail location envelope.

I don't think price should be an issue. Doubtless one could save a lot of money if Sears would sell clothes by the complete outfit, or your local grocery store sold you only a generic basket of goods, no substitutions. For some reason bicycle "makers" have managed to scam us into thinking they make something other than the frame and their ideas on the rest of it are for some reason of interest.

NoReg

I have had good luck as a seller on Craigs, or up here on KIJIJI. Seems to be the preferred place for bikes. Pricing wise, I think the best thing you can do is to try to think as a buyer would think, without bending over in the process.

LuckyLyndy

Peterpan1 said:
Something like this?

tarwheel 

I have had all of my bikes built up from frames and components rather than buying pre-built. You can save money if you are diligent, plus you can build your bike exactly the way you want. I buy a lot of parts on-line, either on sale or good quality used. Also, I typically have parts on hand or can swap from another bike. Most mechanics don't charge that much to swap parts from one bike to another.

When I had my Bob Jackson World Tour built, I swapped the wheels, derailleurs, handlebar, seatpost and saddle from another bike. I bought a new crankset, bar-end shifters and stem. Total cost was about $1,200 including parts and labor. Later, when I could better afford it, I bought some sturdier, touring strength wheels.

I am in the process of buying a new Salsa Casseroll, and the total build w/ parts and labor will be less than $800 because I am using parts I had on hand and wheels and shifters from another bike. The components will be a mix of Shimano Ultegra, Dura-Ace and Campy Centaur -- all spec'd much higher quality (and lighter) than a factory-built Casseroll.

LuckyLyndy

The Bob Jackson looks good, tarwheel, I especially like the wheelset and the cranks.
Lyndon

cyccommute 

Let's compare apples to apples and not cheese to chalk. You said that your total cost of the Jackson build was $1200 and then you bought new wheels. Those new wheels had to cost something and add to the cost of the build. If you took the parts off an old bike, the old bike cost something too. In an honest accounting of the cost of the build you need to include the cost of at least the parts you removed. If you old bike was no longer serviceable, then you should include the cost of that bike as well. Same on the Casseroll.

I have a list (which my wife never sees) of my bikes and the costs involve in building and upgrading them. If I used old parts or took parts off on old bike or upgraded a bike, I include the cost of the old parts and/or the original bike. As I change parts, I change the price sheet on each bike. My 'cheapest' bike cost me $1500 to build...not including my labor. I also tend to, rather hypocritically I'll admit, not include shipping and taxes. Those would add another 10%, roughly. Nor do I include my labor on building the bike or chasing down parts...again hyporcritically In the interest of honesty, the build above includes a $500 set of wheels which are probably a bit much on a $150 frame but I wanted them, so there

When I do a build, or upgrade, my method of accounting for the cost makes me realize the true cost of the build. It's also good for insurance purposes, especially if you happen to have a replacement policy and you bought parts for cheap.

LuckyLyndy

Great line...

That "labor" is the kicker, as I would have to pay my good mechanic to do it. It really does add up a notch.
But Stuart, if I bought an LHT complete, and just did a parts swap (well, not counting the saddle, brakes, a few small things) and then sold the LHT frame new and clean, even it only went for around $200, wouldn't I get under $1500 with the Soma frameset?

cyccommute 

You would think but I tried the donor bike route. It didn't work as well as I thought it would. Partly because the bike didn't have all the parts I wanted and partly because parts didn't fit.

I'm really not trying to be a killjoy here but only realistic. I love working on bikes and building them, I just realize that I don't do it for economy. If I want to get the cheapest bike I can, I'd go for a complete bike from a shop.

NoReg

Are you counting all the driving around to select a bike. When i went looking for a touring bike, I made several car trips to local towns that ended up not having what I wanted, and a few commuter train trips into the city. All told that was probably 50-100 dollars. I tend not to count that stuff because people tend to do something every day anyway, if it wasn't to buy a bike it would be something else. And then it breaks the comparable to the guy who lives a state away, or next door to a touring shop.

I also don't think the donor thing works all that well. What I did with my last lbs bought bike was a I had some stuff I had bought special, and I had some things I moved over from my MTB. I also got the LBS to upgrade a few things on the bike. I got what I wanted and I got a combo of stuff I didn't have to buy, stuff that was 10% off cause it was a build, and stuff that was part of the package.

QBP, is parent of Surly, and prior to the Surly basic, they had a catalog package you could order. Why not ask your LBS what that package costs without the frame, and whether you can switch into it.

safariofthemind

Same experience with the economics of bike building here. You learn a lot, which is satisfying, but end up spending a bit more. On the other hand, as hobbies go, this is a cheap one over a lifetime.