What does a custom light touring bike get you?
#51
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Considering how mtb's are subject to way more stress and have been showing tons of post for years, I can't imagine this being a likely problem. The stock 350mm post on my Casseroll fits with plenty of room leftover, I think most sloping tt bikes ship with at least 300mm posts, and even then 400mm is not hard to find.
#52
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The Casseroll does not have a long top tube, from my standpoint. My Casseroll in Salsa's size 56 has a 56 cm effective top tube, which is pretty typical for that size frame. Also, with the long head tube you can raise your handlebars higher, which effectively shortens the top tube even more.
#53
Junior Member
I would have to agree with PeterPan1. Don't assume that getting a custom frame will get you a proper fit. Having gotten many custom frames over the years it took me half a lifetime to get the right fit finally, and it did not jibe with most of the fitting systems. So I would not recommend going out and getting a $2000 frame until you get to the point that you know what the right fit is. To get there refine your understanding by moving your parts from frame to frame trying changes that you or a fit system claims will be better for you. Buy the frames used. If you bump into the edge of a fit that no production bikes can reach then use a builder like Bob Jackson, half the price of most US builders and a solid quality. Even then you may have to accept some retries. Then when you get the fit right, get your Peter Weigle!
Also modern high-end steel tubing can very much improve ride quality. Some can come close to the weight of carbon frames.
Also modern high-end steel tubing can very much improve ride quality. Some can come close to the weight of carbon frames.
#54
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"I have fitted thousands of people to bicycles with good success and besides taking measurements will also ride"
Obviously I am not making any personal remarks here. I am sure there are great fitters out there. When you are talking thousands of fits, you are talking retail? Fitting people to existing frames is a different mater. First of all people have stock frame expectations. They are normally present in person, and not dealing over the phone or internet (or they took a ride locally and then went to the internet). It is expected that the stock frame will be augmented to reach a perfect fit, but on a proper custom bike the fit gets decided first, then the components are selected, then the frame is built to tie all that together. One can't just declare victory but slapping on a stem that is 2cm over length.
Also, I have never received competent fitting advice at a bike shop. But I never told anyone a thing about it. So none of the salespeople involved was aware I was not taking their advice, or thought they had steered me wrong. There isn't one correct fit, there are several, so no mater how well it looks to one person, and how good they are at detecting proper fit, it won't necessarily be the correct fit correct fit. The fitter may not know what physical limitations a client has, and therefore can't know that even if it looks good, it actually is good.
A really good fit is going to be require an orthopedists knowledge, a coach's level of understanding of cycling, an understanding of the different forms of cycling, an understanding of framebuilding right down to the specific builder's process one is dealing with, and then one needs the skill to actually hit the target being aimed at. Nobody really has all that, and given that fact, I think it behooves the cyclist to take more responsibility. While the theory is tough, the average cyclist can listen to his body and try to increase his knowledge base. I think his chance of sorting it out over time is better than the chance a commercial setting will hit it.
Obviously I am not making any personal remarks here. I am sure there are great fitters out there. When you are talking thousands of fits, you are talking retail? Fitting people to existing frames is a different mater. First of all people have stock frame expectations. They are normally present in person, and not dealing over the phone or internet (or they took a ride locally and then went to the internet). It is expected that the stock frame will be augmented to reach a perfect fit, but on a proper custom bike the fit gets decided first, then the components are selected, then the frame is built to tie all that together. One can't just declare victory but slapping on a stem that is 2cm over length.
Also, I have never received competent fitting advice at a bike shop. But I never told anyone a thing about it. So none of the salespeople involved was aware I was not taking their advice, or thought they had steered me wrong. There isn't one correct fit, there are several, so no mater how well it looks to one person, and how good they are at detecting proper fit, it won't necessarily be the correct fit correct fit. The fitter may not know what physical limitations a client has, and therefore can't know that even if it looks good, it actually is good.
A really good fit is going to be require an orthopedists knowledge, a coach's level of understanding of cycling, an understanding of the different forms of cycling, an understanding of framebuilding right down to the specific builder's process one is dealing with, and then one needs the skill to actually hit the target being aimed at. Nobody really has all that, and given that fact, I think it behooves the cyclist to take more responsibility. While the theory is tough, the average cyclist can listen to his body and try to increase his knowledge base. I think his chance of sorting it out over time is better than the chance a commercial setting will hit it.
#55
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
PP - I have never worked in a retail bike shop... have spent almost a decade volunteering and working at our bike co-op, run my own small shop and work with Arvon Cycles as an apprentice frame builder, mechanic, and wheel builder.
Our co-op is a fully equipped shop and we are one of the busiest shops in the city as we receive and re-distribute thousands of bicycles and in most cases we are dealing with average sized people and can usually find them them a near perfect match or help them adjust their existing rides.
It is when people are not average that things get challenging as if you are average finding a bike that fits you well is not that hard to do.
A lot of people come in with new bikes wanting to learn how to maintain them and an unbelievable number of them have been poorly fitted to their bikes and in some cases have been sold bikes that were the wrong size.
My friend has a new Surly LHT and the shop he bought it from did a poor job of fitting and setting up his bike for him and I have spent a lot of time teaching him about set up and fit and have made many changes to his bike...we also ride together a lot so being able to observe his technique and positioning is helpful and I get a lot of feedback from him. he wishes I had been with him when he bought the bike as he is sure he would have not had so many little issues.
First time I saw him riding this bike saw that the saddle height was wrong (he was having knee pain), saddle position was wrong (butt pain), and the folks at the shop failed to take into account that this guy has longer than average legs for his height, a shorter torso and relatively short arms.
They put him on the right sized frame but fitted it with a 110 mm stem which makes his reach to the hoods excessive which causes pain in the middle of his back but the shop will swap the stem out at no charge and suggested he looks at a 70-80 mm stem which should set him up right.
I have run into a lot of people who have bought new touring bikes and it seems like few people here understand touring and how to set up a bike for long distance comfort... get the feeling that if a bike has drop bars they think you are going to be racing.
Every off the peg bike is a bit of a compromise and there are always adjustments and tweaking that needs to be done... I agree that cyclist really need to take more responsibility in knowing more about how they ride and what makes a bike perfect.
From a frame building end it is still quite similar as it is far easier to work with someone who already has a bike that they are very comfortable with that we can draw measurements from which is easier than working from scratch with someone who isn't exactly sure what they want or does not have a lot of experience.
We offer a 1 year return on custom frames so if the frame we build does not meet all your expectations you can bring it back and we will build you a new one... this does not happen very often as we are usually dealing with dedicated and experienced cyclists.
Our co-op is a fully equipped shop and we are one of the busiest shops in the city as we receive and re-distribute thousands of bicycles and in most cases we are dealing with average sized people and can usually find them them a near perfect match or help them adjust their existing rides.
It is when people are not average that things get challenging as if you are average finding a bike that fits you well is not that hard to do.
A lot of people come in with new bikes wanting to learn how to maintain them and an unbelievable number of them have been poorly fitted to their bikes and in some cases have been sold bikes that were the wrong size.
My friend has a new Surly LHT and the shop he bought it from did a poor job of fitting and setting up his bike for him and I have spent a lot of time teaching him about set up and fit and have made many changes to his bike...we also ride together a lot so being able to observe his technique and positioning is helpful and I get a lot of feedback from him. he wishes I had been with him when he bought the bike as he is sure he would have not had so many little issues.
First time I saw him riding this bike saw that the saddle height was wrong (he was having knee pain), saddle position was wrong (butt pain), and the folks at the shop failed to take into account that this guy has longer than average legs for his height, a shorter torso and relatively short arms.
They put him on the right sized frame but fitted it with a 110 mm stem which makes his reach to the hoods excessive which causes pain in the middle of his back but the shop will swap the stem out at no charge and suggested he looks at a 70-80 mm stem which should set him up right.
I have run into a lot of people who have bought new touring bikes and it seems like few people here understand touring and how to set up a bike for long distance comfort... get the feeling that if a bike has drop bars they think you are going to be racing.
Every off the peg bike is a bit of a compromise and there are always adjustments and tweaking that needs to be done... I agree that cyclist really need to take more responsibility in knowing more about how they ride and what makes a bike perfect.
From a frame building end it is still quite similar as it is far easier to work with someone who already has a bike that they are very comfortable with that we can draw measurements from which is easier than working from scratch with someone who isn't exactly sure what they want or does not have a lot of experience.
We offer a 1 year return on custom frames so if the frame we build does not meet all your expectations you can bring it back and we will build you a new one... this does not happen very often as we are usually dealing with dedicated and experienced cyclists.
#56
Senior Member
From a frame building end it is still quite similar as it is far easier to work with someone who already has a bike that they are very comfortable with that we can draw measurements from which is easier than working from scratch with someone who isn't exactly sure what they want or does not have a lot of experience.
I had a measuring tape with me, and by knowing what dimensions were pretty close for me vis a vis the old bike, and from my mtn bike commuter also, I was able to get a Tricross that really fits me quite well, although I suspect that on paper a size larger would be more "recommended"
Peter--very good points and I agree totally with you about having to know yourself what fits and what doesnt. I would reckon though that a large majority of bike buyers do not have the riding experience to properly evaluate it themselves, as I am sure a vast majority of people with bikes dont ride them that often (and then theres the "putting up with" factor too)
I do not have the experience with "fitting" quote unquote as some of you guys, but I do certainly make a point of trying to point out to people I know some of hte basics, like 65ers friend with the LHT, as even rudimentary stuff like this can greatly help someone be more comfortable, hence like biking more, hence bike more and hence get a better understanding of how a bike should fit.
#57
Senior Member
Any early hard-tail MTB is a great candidate for conversion... the one I converted had a ridiculously long stem, my housemate loves to ride that one, it was for a mutual friend but it fits her well too. Her road bike is a KHS flite 223L and she rode from Calgary to Vancouver on it, so that might be another one to look at before shelling thousands on a custom.
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