Juha

A couple of days old news, but I couldn't find anything in BF on this.

https://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticl...aspx?ID=253716

There's no info regarding kidnappers' motives but it definitely doesn't sound like your average highway robbery. Estonian foreign minister is in Lebanon, trying to facilitate finding the men and bringing them back home.

--J

EKW in DC

Troubling news. I will be hoping for their safety.

Thanks for sharing.

PurpleK

Is there a listing anywhere of the missing tourists? I used to have a good Estonian friend who did a lot of international bike touring.

Juha

I couldn't find a list. One name (Martin Metspalu) has been published in the Estonian media. No idea of the other six.

safariofthemind

Man, what a shame. Saw in the news they took the guys and left everything behind so theft was not the motive.

Anytime we visit any country, as cyclists or garden variety tourists, there's always a risk for some random bs like this. Hope they are found safe and sound.

bradtx

Hopefully the kidnapped cyclists will be found, alive and well. Mexico is a similar danger spot.

Brad

Juha

Update: according to AFP reports referenced in Estonian and Finnish media, Lebanese security forces have detained 3 persons who supposedly acquired the vehicles used. Also, authorities say they have identified the people who carried out the actual kidnapping. No English source for these reports, sorry.

One group has claimed responsibility and apparently has provided copies of missing Estonians' ID documents to Lebanese media:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...ns-in-lebanon/

--J

NoReg

Great misfortune, but who would go to Lebanon?

positron

Uh, many people, including me.
Its a shame you're so afraid and close-minded.

Beirut is the "paris of the middle east" and is a lovely cosmopolitan city.

Many tens of thousands of people are shot and killed in the USA every year. Great misfortune, but who would go to the US?

NoReg

"Its a shame you're so afraid and close-minded."

Uh huh?

Look, a lot of Americans won't go to the Paris of Paris. Ask Lebanons X-president how it feels to have his mind closed with 1000KG of HE. Lebanon is one of those places where people would really like to believe it's just another country, but the people who live there, if they can afford it, are happy to procure a Canadian passport so they can bale at our expense when the hammer falls. I think their actions speak louder than your words.

The difference in the US murder rate is that it is not specifically directed at Americans. It occurs among Americans, but people are not shot for being american. Many of those shot are either aggressors, criminals, or sadly, people from various populations with strife. Anyone with the resources to travel to Lebanon for a hobby, could readily drop their personal exposure to a very low level, while remaining in the US, should they care to do so.

While I would not be bound by travel advisories if I had a sufficient reason to go there. This is what they say:

SAFETY AND SECURITY: A Department of State Travel Warning advises U.S. citizens against travel to Lebanon. U.S. citizens who are in Lebanon despite the Travel Warning should exercise particular caution when traveling in parts of the southern suburbs of Beirut, portions of the Bekaa Valley, and areas south of the Litani River in South Lebanon. Hizballah maintains a strong presence in many of these areas, and there is the potential for action by other extremist groups. The situation remains tense and a resumption of sporadic violence remains a possibility.

On May 7, 2008, Hizballah militants blocked the road to Rafiq Hariri International Airport. The action rendered the airport inaccessible and travelers were unable to enter or leave the country via commercial air carriers. Armed Hizballah and other opposition members proceeded to enter areas of Lebanon not traditionally under their control resulting in heavy fighting and a number of casualties. While there is currently full access to the airport and hostilities have subsided, the United States remains concerned about Hizballah's willingness to use violence to achieve political ends with little or no warning. Since the May 2008 hostilities there have been violent outbreaks in Tripoli that left over twenty dead and dozens wounded.

U.S. citizens have been the targets of numerous terrorist attacks in Lebanon in the past. The perpetrators of many of these attacks are still present and retain the ability to act. On January 15, 2008, a U.S. Embassy vehicle was targeted in a bomb attack that killed three Lebanese bystanders. U.S. citizens should thus keep a low profile, varying times and routes for all required travel. U,S. citizens should also pay close attention to their personal security at locations where Westerners are generally known to congregate, and should avoid demonstrations and large gatherings. Unofficial travel to Lebanon by U.S. Government employees and their family members requires prior approval by the Department of State.

Palestinian groups hostile to both the Lebanese government and the U.S. operate largely autonomously inside refugee and other camps in different areas of the country. Intra-communal violence within the camps has resulted in violent incidents such as shootings and explosions. Travel by U.S. citizens to Palestinian camps should be avoided. Asbat al-Ansar, a terrorist group with apparent links to Al-Qaida, has targeted Lebanese, U.S., and other foreign government interests. It has been outlawed by the Lebanese government but continues to maintain a presence in Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp.

U.S. citizens traveling to Lebanon should also be aware that personnel from the U.S. Embassy are not able to travel in all areas of Lebanon. In the case of an emergency involving a U.S. citizen in areas where it is unsafe for Embassy personnel to travel, the Embassy may not be able to render assistance.

In addition, dangers posed by landmines and unexploded ordnance throughout south Lebanon are significant and also exist in other areas where civil war fighting was intense.

Stay up to date by bookmarking our Bureau of Consular Affairs website, which contains the current Travel Warnings and Travel Alerts as well as the Worldwide Caution.

You can also call 1-888-407-4747 toll-free within the United States and Canada, or by calling a regular toll line, 1-202-501-4444, from other countries. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).

There is nobody better at protecting you than yourself. Take some time before travel to improve your personal security—things are not the same everywhere as they

garethzbarker

While I hope these guys are ok I don't think this is a close minded statement. the government collapsed early this year. Not the ideal touring location.

Bacciagalupe

It really is not necessary to quote the entire State Department rundown.

Oh wait, you didn't. You missed the part where they say that crime is moderate, and violent crime is low (https://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...s/cis_948.html). The US, by the way, is the 8th highest nation for total crimes per capita (https://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita) and 6th highest for assaults per capita (https://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...lts-per-capita). [Note: The US is #24 for murders per capita, and the rate is well below the chart-toppers.]

I agree that it sounds like these individuals were not traveling in an unsafe region of Lebanon, and probably should have done enough research in advance to be prepared for such areas and/or avoid them.

That being said, it is not necessary for a group of Estonians to completely avoid all of Lebanon, and there are many reasons to travel there -- especially if their agenda included traveling to other countries in that region.

positron

Um ,

My friend is a US diplomat, stationed in Beirut for the past four years (recently moved to Islamabad).

He said that when I visit Beirut, make sure to bring my girlfriend, since it is such a romantic place.


He is a state department official, By the way. But I guess his opinion is "unofficial"

Whatever peterpan1, be afraid, be veeeeerrrrry afraid.

Cyclesafe

Peterpan1

+1

I just don't understand why people play "Russian Roulette" by going to these places. Yes, the probabilty of having something bad happen is low, but there are many places to tour where the probability is even lower.

Case in point is this year's Tour Afrique, Cairo to Cape Town. In the seven years or so this supported tour has been running, at least one person has been killed and several have been seriously injured, one with a spear to the shoulder.

I run into tourists along the Pacific Coast Highway here in San Diego who are headed into Mexico. They have the audacity to tell me that everything is safe across the border even though our local news has nearly daily coverage of the carnage that occurs there against normal people, including foreigners.

Sure, in an ideal world we should be able to tour anywhere, whether to Lebanon or Mexico, but let's face it, some places are more unsafe than others, and ones personal threshold of safety should be respected. Personally, I'd not tour anywhere in the Middle East, Africa, or anywhere south of the US border other than Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile.

My prayers go out to those detained. I hope that others learn from their experience.

simplygib

It's a personal choice. Everyone has their own personal tolerance for risk, and hopefully can decide for themselves whether or not they'd be comfortable touring in any particular location. No need for others to second guess that. There are plenty of people out there already who think anyone who would throw a bunch of gear on a bike and ride hundreds or thousands of miles is a daredevil by definition, no matter where in the world they are riding.

Prior to my Central America tour several of my friends and family members warned me that I'd likely end up being chased through the jungles by drug cartels with automatic weapons, kidnapped, or worse. Not surprisingly, none of these people had ever traveled south of the border and were basing all their judgments on what they'd seen on the news. But I had been to Mexico, Central and South America many times prior to this, and figured the danger was probably overblown in the media, so I went anyway. Result: Met almost nothing but nice, friendly people from Cancun to Panama City, and everywhere in between. There were a few nut jobs, but they weren't dangerous.

I read the State Department warnings prior to leaving. Those gave the impression that I would be riding toward certain death.

My own home town has a crime rate that is double the national average, lots of gangs, lots of murders, etc. Yet I lived there 55 years and never personally witnessed a violent crime. Never.

Bad things happen everywhere. But I think the chances of something like that happening to me personally are quite low. The news, and the state department, make the risk seem larger than life.

Others think the risk is much higher. That's ok too. If one doesn't feel safe then it's going to be pretty difficult to enjoy the tour. Make your own decisions based on your own comfort level.

Cyclesafe

+1 Well stated.

PurpleK

You're right. I've always been interested in Libya. I don't know anyone there that has had a bad experience, though there are probably some people that have had to dodge a few rockets. Just their tough luck. It happens everywhere. The evening news has probably been overblowing this whole uprising thing and the State department is likely making the risk larger than it really is. I think I'll take my next bike tour there. I'm sure I'll be fine. Thanks for the encouragement to finally go there.

zoltani

My wife's sister just spent 6months in lebanon for an internship, she's till in one piece. When my wife visited her biggest complaint to me was that it reminded her too much of america She brought me back a hezbollah t-shirt that I'll be sure not to wear next time I take a plane.

Bacciagalupe

To be clear: I, for one, do not recommend cycling through active conflict zones, or areas with extremely high levels of crime (notably Colombia and South Africa). I am aware that some folks here do, just don't lump me in with them.

The point, though, is merely that Lebanon basically is not a conflict zone and does not have a high crime rate. Hezbollah is part of the government now, and at the moment they aren't firing rockets at Israel, so if they start kidnapping tourists then their credibility will get flushed down the tubes. Israel also is not currently occupying the southern regions of Lebanon, so it's not like shells and rockets are flying all over the place.

It's very easy to be terrified of a place you've never been, and only hear about the bad stuff on the news. Sometimes that's a rational fear, many times it is not.

axolotl

I made the decision to tour in Sri Lanka at a time (early 2006) that their civil war was still going on. I don't think this was a foolhardy decision. I did a lot of research and concluded that fighting was restricted to the far north and a narrow eastern strip, and I had no interest or intention of going to either of those areas. First-hand reports from foreigners who had recently visited or who were actually still there all said without exception that they felt safe at all times. I felt exactly the same way while I was there. In fact, it was one of my favorites places I've ever visited, although the cycling wasn't always the best (or worst).

I have toured in Mexico and traveled extensively elsewhere in Mexico by bus, including a trip this year. I have avoided a few places, mostly near the US border, but I otherwise have felt quite safe on and off my bike everywhere I visited in Mexico, including Mexico City, which is a wonderful city to visit.

I ultimately decided against a visit to Guatemala in recent years solely because of security considerations. I concluded that there was simply too much random violence for me to feel comfortable. Even though I knew the odds were in my favor, I felt I would be worrying the whole time. I haven't planned a trip to South Africa for the same reasons. Both Guatemala and South Africa are countries I would otherwise like to visit. Random violence is the key to my decisions.

positron

You do realize that Libya, and Lebanon are different countries right?

You are aware that they are actually on DIFFERENT CONTINENTS too, right???

WTF does Libya have to do with this discussion? Or were you trying to make some point by bringing in ridiculous comparisons between war torn countries and, you know, other places that are not at war?

garethzbarker

lol

Bacciagalupe

I think he was being facetious, and trying to make fun of people who think it's OK to cycle in dangerous areas / conflict zones.

I.e. you missed the joke.

charly17201

Unfortunately, Americans as a whole do not have experience traveling abroad as the citizens of so many other countries do. Yes, I'm an American. I also spent over 20 years in the Marines, lived in 2 other countries (1 Muslim one) and visited more than 20 other countries.

I NEVER had a problem in ANY country - and felt safer in most than I do here in the U.S. The people in other countries may not like the U.S., but they can also differentiate between our government and the individual. I treated every one I met the same way that I wanted to be treated. I respected their culture and made many friends.

By being nice and respectful, I had people telling where I should not go and why (bad crime area, they over charge, etc). Most took a real interest in my liking them and their country and they do not like the stigma that comes from things happening - it cuts down on the tourist trade where they get a lot of their livelihood.

You catch more flies with honey, 'ya know?

Cyclesafe

I just don't understand how people can conclude that just because something bad never happened to them in the past that nothing bad will happen to them in the future. It's all a matter of probabilities. Where there's smoke, there's fire. You only get killed once.

An individual is a data point of one. That individual can't perceive the difference between a risk of a bad outcome of 1:1000 or 1:10 when even in the riskier situation 9 out of 10 times the bad outcome is not experienced. So, as thinking entities we gather information to assess the risk. If you talk to 10 people and 9 tell you they've had no bad outcomes - despite the prevalence of unfavorable information - then some will conclude that there's no risk. I wish people were smarter than that.