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Old 05-19-11, 07:35 AM   #1
jjwfarrell
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Gran Turismo vs. Windsor Tourist - The Ultimate BD Question

So is one better than the other? The shifters are different, but other than that any real significant difference. I was looking at a Jamis aurora too, but I am more suited for a 54cm bike. Jamis only makes 53 and 55. So now I am looking at these 2 bikes. What do you think?
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Old 05-19-11, 07:54 AM   #2
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I think that a 1 cm difference is a poor reason to choose one over the other. That really is a pretty insignificant difference and well within the range of adjustability. That would definitely not rule out the Aurora for me.

OK so assuming you go BD, which one is better? That depends on what you want. The Gran Turisimo has better gearing and supposedly better wheels, but personally I don't care for bar end shifters. Given that preference, I'd buy the Windsor and replace the crank with a Sugino XD600 and put on a 24 T inner ring.

That is pretty much what I used for the TA and some other longish tours and am pretty happy with it. I thought the Gran Turisimo sounded like a great idea, but definitely do not care for their choice of bar end shifters. If you like bar ends shifters that may not be an issue for you.
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Old 05-19-11, 12:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by jjwfarrell View Post
So is one better than the other? The shifters are different, but other than that any real significant difference. I was looking at a Jamis aurora too, but I am more suited for a 54cm bike. Jamis only makes 53 and 55. So now I am looking at these 2 bikes. What do you think?
I think you need to do some research on bike geometry and fitting because the Windsor 54 is bigger than the Jamis 55 and the Gran T 54 is smaller than the Jamis 53. Seatpost length can't be used to compare sizes of different brands. Effective top tube is far more important.
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Old 05-19-11, 12:41 PM   #4
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I think you need to do some research on bike geometry and fitting because the Windsor 54 is bigger than the Jamis 55 and the Gran T 54 is smaller than the Jamis 53. Seatpost length can't be used to compare sizes of different brands. Effective top tube is far more important.
can you explain more about how to choose bikes based on effective top tube? Do you compare that with your arm length?
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Old 05-19-11, 01:12 PM   #5
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So the difference if I am correct between the top tube of the Windsor, 555mm and the Jamis, 550mm, is 5 mm. I guess where I am concerned is the Windsor has a lower standover height and the jamis is slightly bigger. Should I not worry about this? My inseam is 32.75, the Jamis standover is 32.12 and the Windsor is 31. I know trying the bikes would be the ideal, but that is not always possible. Thanks.
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Old 05-19-11, 01:54 PM   #6
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I think you need to do some research on bike geometry and fitting because the Windsor 54 is bigger than the Jamis 55 and the Gran T 54 is smaller than the Jamis 53. Seatpost length can't be used to compare sizes of different brands. Effective top tube is far more important.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but the Windsor and Gran Tourismo have exactly the same size for the 54 cm model. From the BikesDirect website

Quote:
Windsor: MEDIUM 54cm / 21inch / WITH 31 INCH STANDOVER & TT OF 540mm
Quote:
Gran Tourismo: MEDIUM 54cm / 21inch / WITH 31 INCH STANDOVER & TT OF 540mm
For the 53 cm Aurora, the metrics are 31.4 cm standover and a top tube of 545mm. The Aurora has a slightly longer top tube than either of the BikesDirect bikes in a similar size.

Comparing seat tube (not seatpost) length is as valid as comparing top tube length between brands. It's also as valid as comparing standover height. Standover can be more important than either measure since it's not something that can be adjusted. It's best to look at all the parameters and to test the bikes before buying. Some people might like the slightly longer toptube of the Aurora while others might like the shorter toptube of the BikesDirect bikes.

Be aware also that size doesn't vary all that much. A 54 (or 53) cm bike is going to fall in a fairly narrow range of toptubes and standover heights for almost all brands within a given discipline, i.e. touring, racing, mountain biking, hybrid, etc.
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Old 05-19-11, 02:48 PM   #7
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can you explain more about how to choose bikes based on effective top tube? Do you compare that with your arm length?
People get all wigged out about top tube length. It's a somewhat important if you want the most aerodynamic riding position that you can obtain but, for us mere mortals, it's not all that critical. Touring bikes, in general, have short top tubes because we ride in a more upright manner. Mountain bikes have incredibly long top tubes. Road bikes are somewhere in the middle. It's more personal preference than anything else. For comparison, my 19" Specialized Stumpjumper has a 615mm top tube, my Cannondale T800 has a top tube of 572mm, my Dean (go fast bike) and my Salsa La Cruces (cross) have 580mm top tubes. The rider's reach to the handlebars, however, is about the same given that I use drop bars on some bikes and flats on others. The mountain bike is still a tad longer than the road type bikes.
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Old 05-19-11, 03:35 PM   #8
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OP, if you take a look at the detail pics, you'll see that the GT and WT appear to be nearly IDENTICAL frames, with different forks. The geometry charts are identical.

The discussion is moot since the GT is unavailable in the size indicated by the OP, and has been so since the beginning of the year. The popular sizes are probably available only in the first month of a new model year.

So, your bike choice is between the WT, or something else.
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Old 05-19-11, 10:54 PM   #9
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FYI, the Windsor Tourist is the same frame and as the Fuji Touring bike. Windsor/Bikes Direct just takes the surplus frames from the manufacturer (not Fuji) and swaps the stickers. I do prefer the Tiagra shifters of the Windsor.

Fuji Touring:


Windsor Tourist:
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Old 05-20-11, 12:11 AM   #10
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If the Gran Tourisimo had been available when I bought my Windsor Tourist I would have ponied up the extra Benjamin for the Tourisimo. I like the bar end shifters and the stem looks better and it got a bit better componentry. That said my Windsor has more than exceeded my expectations.
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Old 05-20-11, 05:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but the Windsor and Gran Tourismo have exactly the same size for the 54 cm model. From the BikesDirect website
I used their geometry chart link which shows the 54 Windsor at 555mm top tube (chart not avail on the Gran T). I see that is different from the text description, though I can confirm that the chart appears more accurate. For example, for my wife, who "normally" uses a 50cm, needed a 43 Tourist for proper fit due to the slant of the top tube.

Seeing palomars pics of both bikes, they do look like the same geometry, so the OP should confirm the geometry with BD before buying the bike. My point is still holds; the OP needs to understand what measurements are most important for bike fit before buying.

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Old 05-20-11, 06:57 AM   #12
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So, leaving the turismo out of it, does the jamis ride smaller than the windsor based on tt length? Also what measurements are most important for bike fit when buying? Was the person who said the 54cm windsor is bigger than the 55cm Jamis wrong? If you had to answer without trying the bike, would the 54cm Windsor and the 55 cm Jamis be that different in respect to size?
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Old 05-20-11, 07:47 AM   #13
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jjwfarrell, The Windsor has a slightly sloping top tube, the Jamis looks more level and these differences can cause a smaller spec'd bike to be actually larger. Print out the two spec sheets for a side by side comparison of standover and TT measurements.

My four road bikes have a 2.5 cm range WRT seat tube length when measured the same, but only a 1 cm difference between the top tube length, not to mention a 10 mm difference in crank arm length. I think that top tube length is very important, do you have anything to compare with now?

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Old 05-20-11, 08:05 AM   #14
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If I was going to do it, I'd go with the tourist. I like the specs of the GT better and the fork with eyelets, but I'd really like to try brifters. Bar ends aren't as appealing to me. That seems like it was done just so they could label the components as dura ace.
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Old 05-20-11, 08:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by jjwfarrell View Post
So, leaving the turismo out of it, does the jamis ride smaller than the windsor based on tt length? Also what measurements are most important for bike fit when buying? Was the person who said the 54cm windsor is bigger than the 55cm Jamis wrong? If you had to answer without trying the bike, would the 54cm Windsor and the 55 cm Jamis be that different in respect to size?
It would depend on where you get your information. If you go by the Bikesdirect sizing chart, they list the toptube length as 555mm. Their text says 540mm. The Windsor doesn't have much of a sloping top tube so the effective top tube and the actual toptube length are probably pretty close. 555mm for a 54 cm bike seems very long, especially for a touring bike. Looking at their chart all of the listed top tubes seem very long compared to other touring bikes. However Fuji lists their touring model (same bike with different decals) with a similar top tube length.

For comparison, however, I'd go with the standover. The 54cm Windsor has a standover of 31" as does the 53cm Jamis. I'd compare those bikes rather than compare the 54cm Windsor to a 55cm Jamis.
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Old 05-20-11, 09:00 AM   #16
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So, hopefully, but probably not my final question on this subject. Comparing a 54cm Windsor vs. a 55cm. Jamis, is there a key size difference? The only real difference I see is the standover ht, otherwise they seem the same. I know the bikes might be different component wise, but riding wise and feel wise, is one more stretched out than the other?
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Old 05-20-11, 11:30 AM   #17
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jjwfarrell, One of the items I hadn't run across when I first became interested in building a touring bike was that it's often beneficial to go one size smaller than what size road bike one normally rides. The reason being that tires used for tourers are larger than what's commonly used on a road (racing) frame. A personal example is my 58 cm roadie with stand over clearance and my 58.5 cm tourer without (barely) clearance.

"For comparison, however, I'd go with the standover. The 54cm Windsor has a standover of 31" as does the 53cm Jamis. I'd compare those bikes rather than compare the 54cm Windsor to a 55cm Jamis." --cyccommute

This is good advice. More than likely whichever bike/size you decide upon, there will be some fine tuning to the cockpit.

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Old 05-20-11, 12:04 PM   #18
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So is one better than the other? The shifters are different, but other than that any real significant difference. I was looking at a Jamis aurora too, but I am more suited for a 54cm bike. Jamis only makes 53 and 55. So now I am looking at these 2 bikes. What do you think?
One thing that wasn't mentioned was how you determined that a 54 cm was optimal. If for example you used the chart on the Rivendell website, I personally find that they recommend about two sizes (yes sizes not centimeters) too big as compared to my personal preference.
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