Mark Flocco

Hopefully this is the right forum for the post. I'm 38 years old and was recently shopping for a new bike. I had purchased a 29er hardtail last year to ride on trails, as I was ready to get back into biking after a bit of a hiatus. Shortly after I purchased it, I found that my bike trips were almost exclusively on road or paved/smooth bike paths. I was running errands, exploring, and doing some fitness rides. I was not, however, riding on the mountain bike trails around here.

As is often the case in situations like this, I decided I should have a better kinda-road-bike that I could also take on an occasional short tour. By short tour I mean loaded (camp gear, food, essentials), but only maybe 40 miles out of town, camp overnight, and return the next day. Being that I live in the hilly west side of Austin, TX, I also wanted a bike that was relatively light and spry for my fitness rides and grocery shopping, etc.

I visited my LBS with the mindset that I wanted an '11 Specialized TriCross Comp and didn't realize they would have the 2012 models. After some discussion and test rides, a couple of trips, etc., I decided against the Comp, which had cantis, in favor of the discs on the TriCross Elite Disc. I had such good luck with my discs on my hard tail 29er, it seemed like a good fit. One glaring oversight was the gearing, which had a 50/34 compact up front, but a nice 11-32 in the rear.

Fast forward a week and a half and about-to-be three trips to the LBS over problems with my disc brakes, and I'm starting to regret my choice. Even if I get a 11-36 cassette in the rear, I'm probably not looking at comfortable gearing for my dream trip, Santa Fe, NM to Fort Collins, CO. Also, the disc brakes have been nothing but trouble - constantly getting out of alignment, squealing, grinding, etc.

My LBS, being amazingly accommodating, mentioned that if I was dissatisfied with the bike, they'd be happy to exchange it for a '12 Comp or another bike. This took me off guard a bit, both because it's incredible customer service and because I hadn't considered another bike. Additionally, I wasn't *****ing at them at all, just light complaints about the brake squeal and discussions on what to do about gearing.

So finally, the question. Should I take them up on their offer, and if so, is the Comp an OK choice for my usage? I realize there are a host of other options - Surly LHT, Cross Check, Trek 520, etc. But remembering that my ride breakdown is something like:

70% errands/exploring (8-15 mile trips with errand panniers)
25% fitness rides (20 miles through very hilly terrain with no load)
5% touring (probably mostly 40-50 mile day trips with a possible few long hauls built in).

Thanks for reading my ridiculous verbosity.

ocho

Funny, I use disk brakes on my Vaya, Fargo and my La Cruz plus on my Rockhopper 29 and Blackbuck and yeah they squeal in some weather but then so do the bikes I have with canti's and road calipers. I've not had to adjust or fiddle with the disk brakes anymore than any other brake. I probably spend more time messing with the V-brake bikes than anything. I guess YMMV.....

Maybe you just need to get them adjusted and leave 'em alone?

ocho

I forgot to mention that I think the 11-32 and 50/34 crank should be okay but then I'm not the guy doing the pedaling. On one of my bikes I use a CX crank of 46/34 with a 11-32 and its fine but admittedly my tourer is set with a triple 48/36/24 and 9 spd 11-34 cassette. I'm 57 yrs old and I appreciate that granny gear on the steepest climbs when loaded. I do spend 90% of my time though in the big ring and most of the remaining 10% in the middle one. Rarely do I use the granny - nice to know its there though!
I have been thinking strong of changing my 46/34 to a 50/34 for use with the 11-32 cassette as I would like to have a bigger ring for my riding.

Mark Flocco

Thanks for your responses. I also have discs on my Trek/Fisher X-Cal 29er, and I'm used to a little squeal. I'm having a different set of problems on the discs on my TriCross. I went to the shop today, and they suggested taking them apart, getting familiar with them myself. Good advice. Next time I won't need the bike the following day, I'm going to pull the pads out and mess around a bit. Familiarity is key, and I have little experience with maintenance on discs.

Your feedback about the compact double is good. I have a plan to load my panniers and do a 20 mile loop around Austin. I figure I'll at least get an idea where I am with gearing. One other option is to swap out the crankset to a mountain bike set in the 42/28 range (at least for some climbing trips), which would still work with my 10 speed cassette. Of course, I lose some serious highs with that setup and I'm sure I'd miss them.

Thankfully my LBS is patient with me. And I want to keep this bike. It rides great, has braze-ons all over, and fits me well. Not to mention it's very, very pretty.

Clem von Jones

The Comp doesn't have ideal gearing for touring either: 50 x 39 x 30 with a 11-28 cassette. I'd prefer having the disk brakes. You can eventually get them to stop making noise. Usually the caliper and pads are a little out of alignment to the disk and need some tweaking. For touring it'd get a mbt triple and new FD.

I't doesn't say on the SRAM website if the Apex shifters are compatible with triples. Yeah I can see your dilemma now, there are product limitations in the Tricross and SRAM where touring is concerned.

Mark Flocco

The TriCross with disks (mine) has SRAM, not the Shimano 105. I can get a new rear derailleur (SRAM X7) and 11-36 cassette to get a little relief. Problems are it's not as much relief as swapping out the 30 on the triple for a 26, and 11-36 makes for some big jumps in the middle. I'm just not sure I'm a huge fan of the compact double. It seems limiting, and with the only upsides being weight (marginal) and appearance (I'm not vain, I don't mind having a granny).

EDIT: OK, you edited that out of your post.. but even getting the triple up front means new shifters as well. Basically we're talking about a whole new drivetrain, which isn't too cheap. Still not out of the question, though.

Mark Flocco

I've been told the APEX shifters aren't by my LBS. That would certainly make things easier. I'd swap the crankset and be done with it. Thanks for looking, btw.

fietsbob

Avid Cable disc or Hydraulic like Juicy?.[Given Avid is a SRAM brand I assume that is part of the kit.]

Mark Flocco

Cable, you are correct. Avid BB5s.

djb

not too much verbosity, but in any case well written verbosity....
hi, a 2010 Tricross Sport owner here, with the triple 50/39/30 and 11-32.

Oh, first of all I took a look at teh 2012 models and the disk one does look quite nice doesnt it? I too love the fit and ride of my Tricross. Having a triple and a wide range cassette was teh deal breaker for me, my riding is very much similar to yours in terms of what I do. Main diff is coming from a touring background, I knew I wanted a triple and even with the 30 granny, the 32 rear tooth gives a reasonable low that is about 25 gear inches--fine for nearly all I do but for really loaded, would want to bring the granny down to a 26 which would give below 22 gear inches.
As for the brakes, I find cantis alright if you put some good soft pads on ,like Koolstop salmon colour ones, which I did at the end of last year and found a good improvement. Havent used disks on bikes, but would be annoyed if they displayed what you descibe, although to be fair, Im sure its just a setup thing.

Kudos to the LBS for being so open with their offer, sounds like a good store.

as for your real question, I personally like a triple for the wider range of gears, and as I am mostly in the middle ring, I like it for that, yet with a 50-11 it gives one a very nice high gear for those odd downhill blasts,plus the granny as I ride in fairly hilly areas often. The extra weight of a triple really isnt an issue for me, and realistically I think it is not that much anyway.

In the end, you have to decide what gearing works for you, but I hear you on how attractive these cross bikes are for being better "kinda road bikes"--I think they are a great mix and for people like me, a very good compromise that allows you to not worry so much for bad roads and the possibility of wider tires, fenders, racks etc . I have thought of putting on a 11-28 for tighter gearing(a cheap and easy switch) or a diff rear wheel with that range of cassette.

cheers

Mark Flocco

Thanks for the response. The brakes haven't had any more issues since the last adjustment. I'm going out for 20 pretty hilly miles in the morning so we'll see how they hold up. Right now I'm leaning towards keeping the bike, living with the gearing, and trying some shorter, flatter loaded tours first. If tougher, hillier tours become a reality, I would invest in a new drivetrain.

For now, the way I look at it is that I have a bike that's keeping me in the seat nearly every day. If it's that much fun, it can't be all bad, right?

djb

heck, this is a big plus, getting our asses out onto a bike seat is the best thing we can do. Tonight I did an hour or so loop I like to do, with a fair amount of pretty steep hills here in town, where I get into the 30 granny and 30 and 32 tooth often, so for me a triple and wide range cassette is very much worth it--but as you say, the important thing is getting out there and getting fitter.

I might question the "investing in a new drivetrain" just from the money pt of view (vs getting a bike in the first place that has that or closer to that gearing) but you'll figure out whats best for you, and in the big scheme of things, these bikes arent Porsches in terms of money, and money spent on bike stuff is money well spent imo.

again, good riding.

Wheelmonkey

So...what is the final verdict on modifying something like an Apex SRAM double? I have a 34/50 - 11/32 as well, and while I've enjoyed coming down mountain passes with the 50/11 locked in, I'd gladly trade it in for a lower gear when climbing those passes (particularly when loaded). I really don't have a problem with the gearing unloaded, but being loaded will be a different story I'm sure. I haven't attempted steep climbs while loaded with this gearing yet. Kind of afraid I think. I'm hammering unloaded, so I'd imagine that adding 20 lbs. (I'm planning light touring only) will make a heckuva difference heading up some of these mountain passes. If I was able to swamp the 34 for a 30 that might just do the trick for me, but is this even possible??? Maybe I'll check with my LBS and see what can be done. Thoughts/opinions?

djb

wheel and Mark, I highly suggest looking at and playing with this gear calculator online, I personally prefer to use "gear inches" as the final output as this is what is generally referred to, and you can compare yours to what other "tourers" mention in relation to how much weight you are carrying and the terrain.
Just remember to change wheel size from 27 inch to whatever your bike has (and tire size) as well as "gear units" to "gear inches"

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/index.html

your 34 granny and 32 rear cassette gives you a low of 28.4 gear inches
My triple tricross 30 granny and 32 rear gives 25 gear inches

when I toured on my touring bike (not the tricross) with both front and rear bags, plus tent (so about 40lbs) I initially had 25 gear inches for a low, but changed stuff to have about a 21 gear inch low, and in very steep stuff it was very much needed and appreciated.
Basically when you add 20lbs or more, in steep terrain it really makes a huge diff and what was doable unloaded will be a bear to do, and for your knees too. Use the gear calculator to see what low you can do with chainring or cassette changes, and then perhaps ride in the terrain you think you will be encountering AND with weight, this is the only way for you to know how it will be.

but do keep in mind that realistically, you will want at least a 25 gear inch low, and that lower is always better to have, if you have a low low gear that you only use when you are bagged at the end of a day, or not feeling well, you will be darn glad its there for those times.

Wheelmonkey

That's a great calculator there. Thank you for that! If I was able to change the front ring from a 34 to a 30 & kept the rear the same then i'd be down to 25 inches, so that seems better. I'm assuming i'd then lose the 50 so the leaps aren't too great, right? That leads me back to my initial inquiry. Can one even do such things with Apex SRAM, or am I kind of stuck?

djb

your welcome monkeybusiness, I am not familiar with double/compact front cranks really, but what I do know is that every crankset has 1-a given number of bolts holding on the chainrings (4 or 5 bolt pattern) and 2-- there is a certain distance between the bolts--hence a given crankset will be referred to as a "130/70" On a triple crank, the 130 is the space between 2 of the bolts (skipping one) holding the outer and middle chainring, and the 70 is the distance for the inner (granny) chainring.

apparently the numbers will determine how small chainrings can fit on--it makes sense, if your crank is 130, there will be a point where a small mountain bike granny gear chainring of 22 teeth just cannot physically fit onto a given crank as the bolts themselves are larger in diameter than a 22 tooth mtn ring.

so you need to know, ask what is the smallest small ring you can put on, as both of you have double cranks, "compacts" in fact (with a smaller inner ring than a traditional road crank)
I dont know the answer to that, and as you say, there is probably a limit that you can do.

If you can, ride by a few bike stores and see what various answers you will get.

as for really making a change, perhaps a whole new crank would be easier with much smaller teeth. There will be possible issues of axel lenght, but it could be a cheaper way of getting much lower gearing....anyway, just musings on my part, a good bike store mechanic will answer better than I.

Mark Flocco

So my understanding is that the 34 is as small as you're going to get up front. My final decision, which I made effective today, was to return the Tricross. The plan was to buy two bikes in it's stead, a commuter/tourer and a road bike. This way I could leave my bags, racks, etc., on the touring bike and take a saddle bag and nothing else on the road bike.

My LBS, once again I must say, was tremendous in taking back the bike. Asked me to pay for some handlebar tape since mine was torn and some very reasonable labor charge. No problem.

I sat on and rode a Surly LHT and was instantly sold. It's ideal for most of what I do. In fact, it was so ideal that I am going to hold off on the road bike for a few weeks at least. I realize this bike, with its 26" wheels (yeah, it's a 54, so no decision on the 700s) is heavy, etc. But it's comfy and my first voyage of about 10 miles roundtrip to the grocery store and back went great. Loaded with about 25 lbs of groceries, no problem.

Speaking of gearing, the bike has a 26 tooth granny in front and an 11-34 cassette in the back. That makes for a low of 19.88 gear inches (having 26" tires sure helps with that). Should be able to climb nearly anything.. though quite slowly.

I'll report back in a while, just to let everyone know how it's working out.

Wheelmonkey, good luck with your compact double. There were lots of things I did like about that setup. I really liked the SRAM components and shifting was lovely. When I get a road bike, I will probably look for the same compact crankset but with a 12-27 or similar cassette. The jumps in the middle were a little long for me, so that would tighten things up a bit. It would also make me work harder on those hills!

Thanks everyone for the responses and discussion.

Wheelmonkey

I wonder if I can change the cassette at all then? Otherwise I may have to switch it out at some point, which is kind of a bummer because I like the Apex SRAM as well, but think I could go with all the gearing being a bit lower. Like I said, I just don't need that 50-11 option much while touring. I'll ask around at my a few of my LBS's, as djb had suggested. Thanks for the posting this topic Mark. It gave me some more info. about things I was thinking about. That's the great thing about these forums!!!

Mark Flocco

You can get an 11-36 cassette, which would give you a lower low. Also, you can change the crankset to a MTB crankset, which I think I misled you on in the previous post. The problem is the big ring is going to be 42t. So you lose quite a bit at the top end. The upside, if you don't miss the top end, is that you'll probably be able to stay on that ring nearly all the time. You could also swap to that on tours, but I'd think you'd miss the higher gears. It's a tough decision, so I'm sympathetic to what you're going through.

djb

Mark, again-quite impressive the service at that store.

Yes, for a utilitarian commuter/tourer, a LHT is a great choice. I use my old mtn bike (26 in wheels) as a commuter etc, and for that sort of use, a heavier sturdier bike is indeed perfectly suited to that sort of use. The other thing I like about riding my commuter is that I have 26x1.5 Schwalbe Marathon tires on it (which are about the equivalent of 40mm) and so with the front suspension it is much nicer riding over the notorious bad Montreal roads, basically I dont have to be so careful of where I am going, nice at night too, just because of the comfort factor. Yes, it is not as fast as the Tricross or any true road bike, but it is still fine and in fact it is always fun getting onto the lighter bike for the speed increase.
Obviously having the LHT with its true touring gearing, will also be nice when you begin getting into touring. As you say, they are made to be loaded so will be perfectly fine with 20lbs or 50 lbs.

Your idea of at some point getting a road bike is completely understandable, as it will be fun as heck with a much lighter faster bike for those types of rides.

enjoy all your riding, whatever you are on.

Wheelmonkey

Hmmm...so that change to an 11-36 cassette would actually give me around the 25 inches that djb talked about, so maybe I should look into doing that. Doesn't seem I can go much lower than the 34 chainring though (based on what I see on the Apex SRAM site). I want to avoid totally changing out my components if possible. I'm a fairly "strong" rider, so that 25 gear inch set-up might do the trick for me. Would I be better off with 26" wheels too? I thought those would just add weight? I'm on a 700x28 right now.

djb

wheel--I guess the first thing to consider is can your rear derailleur handle a 11 or 12-36? If not its all a moot point. Then, 25 gear inches is not a magic number, depending on how steep and how much load you have, you may still find it not low enough (but cant be answered by us, only by your personal experience with all the various factors) Also, if you could go with a 11 or 12-36, you may find the "jumps" between gear changes too much.

as for 26 inch wheels, you do know that a given frame is made for 26 inchers, or 700's as you say you have, so going to 26 isnt an option.

as for switching out to a diff crankset with smaller chainrings, there are inexpensive cranksets that might be appealing for a loaded trip only, BUT again an informed mechanic will be able to tell you what would be doabe from all teh technical angles (axel length, chainline, can your FD handle it, having to reposition your FD etc etc) I think its fair to say with certainty that a FD made for a double/compact crank will not work for a triple crankset.----more questions for you to ask a reliable, honest mechanic.

Wheelmonkey

Thank you SO much djb! That is some great info. for me!!!