RJM

Using a different frame material for a tour isn't in any way the same as Columbus discovering America, but I get the point you are making.

The issues of using carbon fiber in a touring bike seems to me would be just a few. One, there aren't really any carbon frames devoted to touring, that I know at least. So your load and where you carry it is a little thrown together to fit the bike instead of the bike fitting the load. It seems that an ultralight approach to touring should be used and racks that attach to the frame or fork would be best avoided. Two, any kind of repair that requires tightening a fastener on a carbon fiber piece requires a torque wrench, which is just another tool to carry.

Aluminum has worked fine for touring bikes; my Novara Safari is an aluminum frame and has worked fine. I prefer steel, but would take an aluminum bike too.

pacificcyclist

There are racks that will work better with carbon bikes, namely the axle mount racks from Old Man Mountain or from Axiom or Tubus (Tubus Fly) will work as the weight of the panniers are borne on the wheel axles, not the fork or the stays or rear brake bridge in the case of the Axiom Streamliner DLX (I own this) or the Tubus Fly. I also have an Old Man Mountain Sherpa rack and this is one tough rack and works with CF frames. In fact, OMM has customers who use these racks with their own CF bikes on tours no problems whatsoever.

The concern I have is really not about weight if the proper racks are used, but rather the weight placed that may effect handling. Over 30lbs of well distributed load up front and back on a bike, the bike becomes a little bit twitchy as most CF bikes does not have the necessary wheel base and relaxed steering angles to give a more benign and slower response of that of a touring bike. But around 25 to 30lbs is all I need for a light setup and the bike feels stiff, confident and responsive still. This is unlike a conventional tourer that it ALWAYS FEEL sluggish, because if it's a tank it sure will ride like one.

I've toured with both aluminum and steel bikes and I find both to be just fine. I suppose the negative press aluminum frame gets is due to the harsher ride that people think they are getting from aluminum and less with steel. But I think this is due more to better fitting, tires used and inflation of the tires rather than the material itself. But bike companies move in packs and sell in packs. When steel is good, everything is now sold with steel in mind in the touring world. Not too long ago though, the opposite was true with aluminum is lighter and steel is heavy.

staehpj1

I tend to mostly agree.

I do think the whole "twitchy thing" is overstated. I recently returned from a San Diego to Pensacola tour on a Cannondale Criterium bike (1990 ish) and found the ride and handling enjoyable. I am sure my Crit bike is a lot twitchier than Nun's Cervelo RS which should have a more relaxed ride.

Magnus Thor

If Open Pros work for someone like me, who weighs around 250lbs, then I'm sure they will be fine for you. I probably have around 7 to 8000 km on my Open Pros and they are still as true as the day I got them.

Magnus Thor
Iceland

Carbonfiberboy 

I've put about 50,000 miles on my carbon Trek 5200 and the frame is still perfect, though it needs a repaint. I've done everything on it, randonnees, descents down "gravel" forest service roads where the smallest rocks were the size of potatoes, double centuries, whatever. I don't treat it more carefully than any other bike. It's fallen over plenty of times, been in a few crashes. No damage to the frame or fork. And it's way stable and comfortable. It's the Ultegra version of the bike Lance won his first TdF on. Those guys aren't nuts. They want a bike that doesn't require much attention and that doesn't sap your energy. Carbon is great, as is the relaxed front end on a long distance racing bike.

I run 25c 4000s on my tandem with excellent results. We run 28c when touring loaded on it. I've run a OP rim on the tandem front, but knocked it out of true when braking/skidding in the rain and it came up hard on a dry patch. It trued up OK, though I didn't run it on the tandem again. You'll be fine with them obviously. I'm a big fan of OP Ceramic rims, which are not the same as the CD rims, very inferior. One set of those rims will last you 10s of thousands of rainy, muddy miles. I run Rolfs on the Trek, very sturdy rims, never need truing. They have lower spoke tensions than conventional wheels because of the deep section.

You can run clip-on fenders with mud extenders, which I do on the Trek.

sstorkel

You only need a torque wrench if you're a ham-fisted idiot. I've been riding carbon frames since the mid-90's, never used a torque wrench, and never had a problem. The fragility of carbon fiber is greatly over-stated... at least in this forum!

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm trying to think of anything on a carbon bike where one could overtighten it and damage the frame or fork. Frankly, I can't. Brake bolts are the only thing I can think of, and they're in aluminum compression sleeves, so not really anything one could hurt there, either. The only thing that really needs a torque wrench is the cassette lockring and that's the same on every bike. I've never gotten a bike back from a shop yet where they used a torque wrench on it. Always check that, folks! A friend just had their cassette come off last week. Happens all the time.

fietsbob

Out the door loop tours don't let the boxed bike get abused by luggage handlers,
Like flying across oceans may..

RJM

Yes, brake bolts, but also carbon stems especially clamping to carbon handlebars or steer tubes, seat post clamps onto carbon seat posts or carbon seat rails should all be installed using a torque wrench. These are things that routinely get unfastened when taking the bike apart if you have to fly with your bike. If a shop is doing these things to a cabon bike without using a torque wrench they are doing their customers a disservice.

Bekologist

seatpost bolt, front derailleur clamp, water bottle bolts, stem clamp to carbon steerer...

overtightened headset and BB can contribute to premature wear of frameset. Certainly, carbon handlebars being crushed by hamfisted stembolts and frame damage from chain wear or dings and nicks/crashes/garage doors are the most common maladies seen on carbon steeds.



...if you're bringing a carbon bike to a shop and they aren't using a torque wrench, find another shop.

write_barrier

When I travel with my R3, or tour with my R3+Tubus Carry, I bring a 5 Nm Ritchey Torqkey and use it to fasten the handlebars to the stem, and to fasten the seat post.

MassiveD

That might be a problem in this case given that this isn't really a touring bike in the first place. But carbon structures can be tough also. They drove a car over that bow frame, and the everyday damage to a bow is worse than a bike, climbing in and out of trees, bushwacking. When the car was driven over those bows they were strung and under a lot of load, so it would have been easy to compromise them. I've been around carbon for 35 years, and have the raw tow to make stuff out of. I am well aware of it's limits, but it can be tough if that is the design brief. Arrows are 350 feet per second slaming into the shoulders of big game animals, shafts of ice axes. Helmets, fighter jets. It is just a design issue. But I fully admit it is unlikely to have been part of the brief on this bike. On the other hand, I don't like my steel frame to get messed up, and I never got any scratches in it that were deep enough to have compromised a carbon bike.

asiamj

Nun, I am new to touring and have a similar bike but a Cervelo S2. I plan on taking it on a light 3-4 day trip down the coast. Can you tell me what type of saddlebags you have and the cubic in? Thanks.

chasm54

I haven't toured on a Cervelo, but I regularly do credit card tours on a full carbon road bike with a Nelson longflap saddlebag supported by a bagman. I'm not as minimalist as you, so despite not carrying a tent or sleeping bag my gear is still close to 20lbs. Anyway, my experience is that there is no trouble with frame or wheels and that it should work well for you.

sstorkel

I've been riding carbon fiber frames since 1994. I've never used a torque wrench for anything and never had a problem as a result. If you need a torque wrench to install a water bottle bolt, you probably shouldn't be working on bicycles...

fietsbob

Yea Its a big British Saddle bag, and good sized handlebar bag sort of set up.
Lands End to John O'Groats trips

Since the Carbon ride will be dampened with Mass carried on the lower portions.



as the frame & fork were not designed as a beast of Burden. made to haul just rider ..

chasm54

Er, what?

fietsbob

N/M you go do what you want, I'll be in the Pub

njkayaker

Try reading it in a Yoda voice.

Bekologist

I'm not suggesting needing a torque wrench to install a WB bolt.

I suggest if a bike shop people use for the maintenance of their carbon fiber bikes isn't using a torque wrench to do things like stem swaps, crank installs and the like, they should find another shop.

Mechanics proud of their inherent torque abilities and that scoff at torque wrenches might have bluster, but they're not professional.

staehpj1

Your shop should do it, but...

Carrying a torque wrench on tour is a different matter. FWIW, back in my motorcycle racing days I experimented with checking torques of fasteners attached by feel and found that it wasn't that hard to hit them pretty close by feel. I mostly stopped using the torque wrench at that point, except for things where I thought it was especially critical.

Bottom line, while I don't think that is the right answer for someone who is being paid to work on other folks bikes, I personally would definitely not carry a torque wrench on tour.

On a side note... While not necessarily relevant to touring, I wonder how often the professional wrenches who maintain the bikes on the Pro Tour use torque wrenches. I would be willing to bet they don't use them at all for repairs during a race, but have no idea what they do in pre-race prepping.

Bekologist

And i didn't suggest bringing a torque wrench on tour either, but a poster or two referenced bringing a ritchey torqkey along with, a compact clicker wrench.

given the fracas over failing steerer tubes and crushed steerers and handlebars from overtightened stems, i suspect every pro wrench working a pro tour now uses a torque wrench for most fasteners and assembly.

-at least, every professionally minded mechanic uses one prepping bikes.

I recall lawsuits circulating around from stems being overtightened, FSA and specialized going on the defensive and denying culpability in some failure related to improper torque assembly.....

like i mentioned earlier, if you are bringing your carbon bike to a shop and the mechanic is proud of not using a torque wrench (the typisch "yeah, I know how tight things are by the feel") and never uses a torque wrench,

FIND ANOTHER SHOP.

nun

I'm using a Carradice Camper Longflap with a 24 litre capacity.

I took the loaded RS out for a 50 mile hilly ride last weekend and everything worked nicely, except the gearing is a bit high and I found myself cruising on the larger sprockets and searching for a lower gear on some steep climbs. I had to do them out of the saddle rather than sitting and spinning and a couple of those in quick succession and I could feel it in my legs. So I'll probably replace the 50t ring with a 48 or 46 and go to a 12/28 or a 12/32 rear cassette, although the latter will need a new rear derailleur too. This summer I plan to use the RS set up to "circumnavigate Massachusetts". I'll ride anti-clockwise around the borders, out to Provincetown and take the ferry back to Boston. It's about 450 miles, but I'm never much more than 100 miles from home.

Ron Harry

-------
with all due respect there Bacciagalupe, it's just that you represent the 'box'. But we 'need' that argument to
contrast what nun is trying to do I think [to think outside the 'box']. I know I love my CF bike(s), and WANT to use it (them) wherever I can. Important discussion IMHO.

Ron Harry

Exactly the discussion I was looking for; thanks nun. I'm presently 'building' up an old steel Miyata triple cross as a touring bike, but it will take time. In the meanwhile, I have two carbon bikes I was planning on using for 2 or 3 day trips, with a setup almost as you have. My bike is a Trek FX 7.9...which is CF. I love this bike, and it was sold to me as a light CC touring bike [among other uses]. It actually has frame stays for the addition of a rear rack for example. But I've been hesitant to use this bike with a pack, or a rear rack with panniers etc. After reading this thread, you've helped me overcome some of my hesitancy. I like the miyata, but I LOVE the 7.9 FX bike (no longer made). I also plan on using my open pro's with ultegra hubs and 32 spokes. Since you started this thread back in March, have you made any trips yet; and how did it turn out? You know, I only read one post in this entire thread that actually gave an actual event of a CF frame failing on a tour or randonneur of any kind. [maybe I missed another post on that too, ha ]. [or did I miss a post]...