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  1. #101
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    I should mention that if you're going to tour with p-clamps or zip ties on a frame of any material, put abrasion tape under them. You'll get grit under the p-clamps or zip ties and they'll wear right through the finish and into the frame material.

  2. #102
    djb
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Try reading it in a Yoda voice.
    chuckle

    in the past I've kidded him about writing in a Haiku style, but then I dont think he found me funny either.

    just good natured ribbing there Mr Fiets.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I'm not suggesting needing a torque wrench to install a WB bolt.
    I guess you don't bother to read your own posts? The one I quoted clearly says:

    seatpost bolt, front derailleur clamp, water bottle bolts, stem clamp to carbon steerer...
    If you're not suggesting that all of these items need to be installed with a torque wrench then I'm not sure why you bothered to lump them together...

    I suggest if a bike shop people use for the maintenance of their carbon fiber bikes isn't using a torque wrench to do things like stem swaps, crank installs and the like, they should find another shop.

    Mechanics proud of their inherent torque abilities and that scoff at torque wrenches might have bluster, but they're not professional.
    You show me a professional mechanic who uses a torque wrench for everything and I'll show you a mechanic who is either 1) over-charging his customers, or 2) about to be fired because he doesn't complete jobs fast enough.

    The next time you see one of your vaunted professional bike mechanics, I suggest asking them about their torque wrench usage. In particular ask: which type of wrench they're using (beam, clicker, etc), how and where the wrench is stored, how often it gets dropped, and when it was last calibrated. You'll likely get blank stares starting with the second question and then you'll know that your mechanic isn't a professional, but just another guy with a fancy tool... one that's likely misreading the applied torque by 10-20%!

    The fact is, you don't need to know the exact torque applied to any fastener on a bicycle. What you really need to know is that you haven't torqued the fastener to the point where it will break and that you've applied similar torque to related groups of fasteners (ex: when clamping handlebars in a stem or the stem to a steerer tube). Both of those goals are easily achievable without relying on a torque wrench.

  4. #104
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    need some coffee to take the edge off or something sstorkel?

    I believe carbonfiberboy was suggesting there's no bolts on a bike that would cause damage if overtightened.


    Quote Originally Posted by rjm
    also carbon stems especially clamping to carbon handlebars or steer tubes, seat post clamps onto carbon seat posts or carbon seat rails should all be installed using a torque wrench. These are things that routinely get unfastened when taking the bike apart if you have to fly with your bike. If a shop is doing these things to a carbon bike without using a torque wrench they are doing their customers a disservice.

    having a stripped WB eyelet is a bummer, and people do it. it's considered a bike in need of repair when that happens.

    sorry for not being clear about how bikes sustain damage, how mechanics should use a torque wrench for some assemblies, and how overtightening things can lead to problems on a bike, esp. a carbon fiber bike.

    although the nuances of bike fasteners and torque have begun to degrade into pedantic ranting, i'm going to consistently suggest if a person has been taking their carbon bike to a bike shop and the mechanic scoffs at using a torque wrench with rationale similar to sstorkels', find another shop.

    yes, your mechanic and you should both be able to attach a water bottle without a torque wrench. that doesn't mean that overtightening them isn't possible or not considered frame damage.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-12 at 12:00 PM.
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  5. #105
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    need some coffee to take the edge off or something sstorkel?

    I believe carbonfiberboy was suggesting there's no bolts on a bike that would cause damage if overtightened.





    having a stripped WB eyelet is a bummer, and people do it. it's considered a bike in need of repair when that happens.

    sorry for not being clear about how bikes sustain damage, how mechanics should use a torque wrench for some assemblies, and how overtightening things can lead to problems on a bike, esp. a carbon fiber bike.

    although the nuances of bike fasteners and torque have begun to degrade into pedantic ranting, i'm going to consistently suggest if a person has been taking their carbon bike to a bike shop and the mechanic scoffs at using a torque wrench with rationale similar to sstorkels', find another shop.

    yes, your mechanic and you should both be able to attach a water bottle without a torque wrench. that doesn't mean that overtightening them isn't possible or not considered frame damage.
    Incorrect. Carbonfiberboy was suggesting that there are no bolts peculiar to a carbon fiber frame for which overtightening would damage the frame itself. Obviously one can strip out an insert, such as for a waterbottle, but that's exactly the same problem one would have on a frame of any material. All the smoke thrown up about carbon bars, seatposts, stems, and forks has nothing to do with a carbon frame. Such parts are common on bikes of any material.

    I've spent a fair bit of time in bike shops and have never seen a torque wrench in use, even in the best shops in town. My little anecdote about "tighten your own cassette lock ring with a torque wrench" is because IME mechanics never use a torque wrench and thus undertighten key parts, particularly including said lock ring and cable binder bolts. I do use a torque wrench to prevent undertightening. I've never overtightened anything because it's pretty hard to do if you have any experience with metal fasteners.

  6. #106
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    the guy already had a RBW, steel frame bike, guess Carbon, as the latest technology, was seductive.

    back to hijacked thread's new course..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 04-26-12 at 11:51 AM.

  7. #107
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Incorrect. Carbonfiberboy was suggesting that there are no bolts peculiar to a carbon fiber frame for which overtightening would damage the frame itself. Obviously one can strip out an insert, such as for a waterbottle, but that's exactly the same problem one would have on a frame of any material. All the smoke thrown up about carbon bars, seatposts, stems, and forks has nothing to do with a carbon frame. Such parts are common on bikes of any material.

    I've spent a fair bit of time in bike shops and have never seen a torque wrench in use, even in the best shops in town. My little anecdote about "tighten your own cassette lock ring with a torque wrench" is because IME mechanics never use a torque wrench and thus undertighten key parts, particularly including said lock ring and cable binder bolts. I do use a torque wrench to prevent undertightening. I've never overtightened anything because it's pretty hard to do if you have any experience with metal fasteners.
    I think of frame and fork as a frameset, and forks have unquestionably been damaged by improper assembly. There's been a serious fracas and lawsuits between component and bicycle manufacturers about what types of stems are even suitable on certain maker's bikes.

    it's an interesting, cautionary read and one anyone that rides carbon should appraise themselves of.

    http://velonews - trek statement about carbon steerer breakages

    Quote Originally Posted by trek statement
    We appreciate VeloNews looking into this issue as the racing community needs to better understand the consequences of ignoring installation instructions when dealing with carbon fiber parts.... consequences of over torquing a carbon steerer are real and can be catastrophic.
    glib suggestions there's no need for torque values when working on modern carbon bikes falls significantly short of the mark.

    nonetheless,

    I'm confident nun can finess his bike back into riding condition safely out of his tardis soft shell case, so long as the frame hasn't been mishandled by the TSA inspectors intent on looking into every bag, or the gorillas that haunt the back corridors of every airport.

    The following statement, however, is frightful. i'm not sure 'best shops in town' applies to places that don't seem to know what a torque wrench is....maybe they keep the customers away from where the real workstands are?

    Quote Originally Posted by carbonfiberboy
    I've spent a fair bit of time in bike shops and have never seen a torque wrench in use, even in the best shops in town.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-12 at 06:38 PM.
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  8. #108
    Bike addict, dreamer AdamDZ's Avatar
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  9. #109
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I think of frame and fork as a frameset, and forks have unquestionably been damaged by improper assembly. There's been a serious fracas and lawsuits between component and bicycle manufacturers about what types of stems are even suitable on certain maker's bikes.

    it's an interesting, cautionary read and one anyone that rides carbon should appraise themselves of.

    http://velonews - trek statement about carbon steerer breakages



    glib suggestions there's no need for torque values when working on modern carbon bikes falls significantly short of the mark.

    nonetheless,

    I'm confident nun can finess his bike back into riding condition safely out of his tardis soft shell case, so long as the frame hasn't been mishandled by the TSA inspectors intent on looking into every bag, or the gorillas that haunt the back corridors of every airport.

    The following statement, however, is frightful. i'm not sure 'best shops in town' applies to places that don't seem to know what a torque wrench is....maybe they keep the customers away from where the real workstands are?
    Still looking for that dangerous fastener on a carbon frame . . . The only catastrophic failure I've ever had on a bike was the complete failure of a steel stem. Among my riding groups, the only fork failures we've experienced were with aluminum and steel forks. No carbon fork failures at all, even though carbon forks now make up the vast majority of forks seen on modern road bikes of any frame material. In terms of other bits and pieces, we've seen complete steel frame failures and steel pedal axle failures, both catastrophic. Not a single carbon frame failure.

    I don't run pure carbon steer tubes. I don't think that's a good application for carbon, and I advise against it. Most "carbon" forks have aluminum or aluminum cored steer tubes and are perfectly safe. For a while in the boat world, people were running carbon rudder stocks, which had occasional catastrophic failures. Same problems as with a steer tube.

  10. #110
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Still looking for that dangerous fastener on a carbon frame . . . The only catastrophic failure I've ever had on a bike was the complete failure of a steel stem. Among my riding groups, the only fork failures we've experienced were with aluminum and steel forks. No carbon fork failures at all, even though carbon forks now make up the vast majority of forks seen on modern road bikes of any frame material. In terms of other bits and pieces, we've seen complete steel frame failures and steel pedal axle failures, both catastrophic. Not a single carbon frame failure.

    I don't run pure carbon steer tubes. I don't think that's a good application for carbon, and I advise against it. Most "carbon" forks have aluminum or aluminum cored steer tubes and are perfectly safe. For a while in the boat world, people were running carbon rudder stocks, which had occasional catastrophic failures. Same problems as with a steer tube.
    Why?



    Yet, even with incredible strength and toughness like this, with a single careless act like over torquing a bolt, clamping your carbon wonder wrong in your repair stand, or letting the handlebars swing around and smash into the top tube, you can do some serious damage.
    Over torquing is probably the biggest cause of cracks that I see in carbon products. And, it's much harder to determine the torque on a bolt by feel with carbon than it is with aluminum. The best way to avoid problems and do the job correctly is by getting a torque wrench and always using it and the company's torque chart when working on your bike. Here's some excellent information on proper tightening and torque specifications from our friends at Park Tool USA.
    From here:
    http://jimlangley.com/articles/carin...nents-pg71.htm


    Also, check this page out.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...ow-to-use-them

    "While torque specifications are important with all type of materials, the growing number of carbon fiber components has led to an increasing focus on torque specifications," says Pedro's engineer Jay Seiter. "While carbon fiber allows for more optimal design and provides a far higher strength to weight ratio compared to steel and aluminum, it is also more susceptible to crushing and cracking when improperly set up."
    From that article.
    Last edited by RJM; 04-25-12 at 07:54 PM.
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  11. #111
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    Why? <snip>
    Because carbon does not do well in situations where there are sharp concentrations of bending moments. Anywhere a carbon tube exits a clamping device is subject to notch sensitivity. If one looks at a part like that, either with finite element software or by numeric inspection, one sees a very sharp rise in stress at the exit point. Such parts would include fork steer tubes, seat posts, and rudder stocks for example. There's a reason they tell you not to clamp a rack to a carbon seat post. Carbon parts do not fail by bending like steel or aluminum sometimes do, hence there is no warning. If the stress exceeds the limit of the part, it breaks. Bike frames and boat hulls, OTOH, are good examples of correct carbon fiber usage. In both those cases, stress risers are avoided by tapering the laminate at joints and bending moments are minimized in favor of axial stresses. One might think there would be potential problems at fork and frame dropouts, however at those points the heaviest stresses are axial, which carbon handles exceptionally well. In any case, carbon frames and forks are heavily overbuilt at those points. I've never heard of a failure.

    Your links make good points. One should certainly torque pinch bolts on carbon parts such as handlebars and carbon steer tubes to spec. And I see that there is at least one model of carbon racing frame which has a full carbon pinch bolt for the seat post, which is an integral part of the frame. If you have such a pinch bolt on a frame, one should certainly torque it to spec.

    I don't advise touring with parts which require the use of a torque wrench to install them properly, other than, as I have said, one's cassette lock ring. Install that yourself before your tour and torque it to spec. Then you won't need your chain whip, 1/2" drive torque wrench, and cassette lock ring tool.

  12. #112
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    don't overtighten that front clamp on derailleur...... and Cervelo lists torque specs for their water bottle cage bolts.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    it's an interesting, cautionary read and one anyone that rides carbon should appraise themselves of.

    http://velonews - trek statement about carbon steerer breakages

    glib suggestions there's no need for torque values when working on modern carbon bikes falls significantly short of the mark.
    It's always amusing to see people who assume that press releases written by lawyers contain any scientific facts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    Random pages saved on a web server by people without scientific qualifications? It must be true!!!!

  15. #115
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    It's always amusing to see people who assume that press releases written by lawyers contain any scientific facts...
    you think trek's advice to tighten to spec is inconsequential? in light of crushed steerer tubes leading to crashes in the peloton?

    hmm. an interesting island in da nile. it's unclear why anyone would want to go there.
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  16. #116
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    Random pages saved on a web server by people without scientific qualifications? It must be true!!!!
    Really?

    What is kind of funny was that my original statement about the use of a torque wrench was supposed to show how few problems there are with touring on carbon fiber. In other words, I'm for the OP using his Cervelo to light tour on but he should be prepared to fix his bike properly on the road.

    What is true is the numerous cracked carbon parts that are caused from overtightening and the fact that the manufacturers are pretty serious about torquing these pieces correctly. But whatever dude, you know what's best because you are saying it on the internets. Do you have an article or two showing how there is no need to torque carbon stuff correctly?
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  17. #117
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    don't overtighten that front clamp on derailleur...... and Cervelo lists torque specs for their water bottle cage bolts.
    Clamp-on front der not a good idea on a carbon frame. See my argument about stress risers, above. I can't recall ever seeing one. Bonded-in-place attachments are the way to go. And the WB bolts is the same-old: same spec on any frame material. Nothing particular or peculiar to carbon frames.

    Carbon frames are unbelievably tough. Those aren't steel frames being unscrambled and ridden away from a peloton pile-up. When one is unrideable, it's usually a component issue. The only broken frame I've ever witnessed on a ride was steel. They get steel wall thicknesses so thin trying to be competitive with carbon that ticking one with one's fingernail is a little scary.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    you think trek's advice to tighten to spec is inconsequential? in light of crushed steerer tubes leading to crashes in the peloton?
    Rather than simply believing everything we read on the Internet, let's try a little critical thinking here: VeloNews reported that of the thousands of Madone 6's sold five had failures of their carbon steerers. Trek blames everyone but themselves (mechanics/dealers for improper assembly, FSA for poorly-designed stem, etc). Despite claiming that others are to blame, Trek modifies the design of the fork. After the re-design, there are no documented cases of that fork failing. There are no documented cases, that I can find, of carbon steerers from other manufacturers failing.

    So, what conclusions can we draw? Here are some possibilities:

    1) The 5 guys with failed Trek steerers are really unlucky
    2) Torque specs are critical for carbon steerers and everyone but the 5 guys who crashed gets them right
    3) FSA stems are incompatible with Madone 6 carbon steerers
    4) Other manufacturers are better than Trek at covering up steerer failure
    5) Torque specs are very important if you're using a poorly-designed fork
    6) Trek screwed up the fork design and is now covering their ass by blaming the problems on improper assembly

    If torque specs were as likely to lead to steerer failure as you seem to think, I would expect to find more reports from VeloNews about those failures. After all: those guys love to make mountains out of mole hills. Why aren't we hearing about steerer failures on Specialized, Cannondale, Cervelo, Pinarello, etc? Are their customers more likely to own torque wrenches than Trek's customers? Are their lawyers and PR guys better at keeping the failures secret?

    Personally, I think that #6 is the most likely explanation with #1 and #5 also being possibilities.

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    I'm currently three months into a tour around the US, and everything I've expereinced so far is pushing me toward a setup like nun's for my next tour, regardless of length. Right now I'm on a LHT, but I just think it's so easy to overpack, with an eye toward convenience/comfort or some idea of being completely self-sufficient. Really the majority of my time is spent riding the bike and sleeping, and I think it would be better to consider gear/bike choices in the frame of that reality. I'm fairly lightweight as it is, but taking less would be so simple, and I think it would be easier to stay in the moment with less items to potentially fiddle with.

    My one question: Why not a frame bag with this setup? It can take some of the load from the saddlebag and make it possible to use a compression sack instead potentially. it also puts more weight lower on the frame, seems more aerodynamic, etc. Bottles can be replaced by a bladder for simpler water fills. I can fit a 3L baldder in mine and vary the fill level depending on how far next water will be. The frame bag is the piece of touring kit I'm most happy with, and it seems to have even more benefits in an UL/Cf setup. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yourboyblue View Post
    I'm currently three months into a tour around the US, and everything I've expereinced so far is pushing me toward a setup like nun's for my next tour, regardless of length. Right now I'm on a LHT, but I just think it's so easy to overpack, with an eye toward convenience/comfort or some idea of being completely self-sufficient. Really the majority of my time is spent riding the bike and sleeping, and I think it would be better to consider gear/bike choices in the frame of that reality. I'm fairly lightweight as it is, but taking less would be so simple, and I think it would be easier to stay in the moment with less items to potentially fiddle with.

    My one question: Why not a frame bag with this setup? It can take some of the load from the saddlebag and make it possible to use a compression sack instead potentially. it also puts more weight lower on the frame, seems more aerodynamic, etc. Bottles can be replaced by a bladder for simpler water fills. I can fit a 3L baldder in mine and vary the fill level depending on how far next water will be. The frame bag is the piece of touring kit I'm most happy with, and it seems to have even more benefits in an UL/Cf setup. Thoughts?
    Touring light means you have to dispose of some of the luxuries. 20lbs or under for motel/hotel and 30lbs or under for camping are considered UL. You can do with with light steel bikes. Just so happens that CF bikes are plentiful. My advise is to continue pairing down your stuff and send them home. If you can achieve 30lbs or under towards the end of your trip, consider nun's setup but with beefy Old Man Mountain racks as the weight are borne on the axles and not on the fork or chainstays. They have minimal sways when you climb out of the saddle to attack a hill and they are ultrastiff. My rear OMM Sherpa rack was crushed by 3 18 wheeler trucks when my 26" touring rig came off the bike rack and landed on the interstate and survived saving the rear wheel, rear derailleur and brakes. Everything seatube forward were completely crushed to pieces.
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  21. #121
    djb
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    Pacific-- jeepers creepers , the 18 wheeler incident must have been a real "oh poop" moment!

  22. #122
    Senior Member staehpj1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacificcyclist View Post
    Touring light means you have to dispose of some of the luxuries. 20lbs or under for motel/hotel and 30lbs or under for camping are considered UL. You can do with with light steel bikes. Just so happens that CF bikes are plentiful. My advise is to continue pairing down your stuff and send them home. If you can achieve 30lbs or under towards the end of your trip, consider nun's setup but with beefy Old Man Mountain racks as the weight are borne on the axles and not on the fork or chainstays. They have minimal sways when you climb out of the saddle to attack a hill and they are ultrastiff. My rear OMM Sherpa rack was crushed by 3 18 wheeler trucks when my 26" touring rig came off the bike rack and landed on the interstate and survived saving the rear wheel, rear derailleur and brakes. Everything seatube forward were completely crushed to pieces.
    Different perspectives I guess, but, I don't think 30 pounds is even close to ultralight. It is pretty easy to get to 30 pounds without much or any high dollar or specialty U/L backpacking type gear. That is pretty much normal fully loaded touring with only moderately careful packing.

    I figured it was only borderline ultralight when I had 22 pounds of gear including panniers, cooking, and camping gear. I'm not sure it all would have fit in Nun's saddle bag though. I figure that when I got to under 15 pounds of gear it probably really qualified as ultralight. Even then I have things that are not necessities like a 4:3 camera with and extra lens and a tiny tripod. The sub 15 pound load (sub 40 if you include the bike) also included a day pack for hiking and extra hauling, and a pair of off bike shoes (Crocs).

    FWIW, I find it takes some effort to pare down the load, but the tour remains comfortable I generally don't miss the stuff I left behind.

  23. #123
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i think its tough to fit even UL loads into a carradice. I've done it, and its suboptimal IMO.

    Nun has traditionally strapped his tent - the largest element of a UN packers' load - under his saddle.

    A rack and light panniers make it much easier to pack fully contained and ultralite.

    As to yourboyblue's question about framebags - I wonder if a frame bag can cause compression fatigue in carbon tubes? I know several people that have cracked carbon seatposts via seatpost racks, and seatposts are much thicker than carbon frametubes.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #124
    Senior Member staehpj1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    A rack and light panniers make it much easier to pack fully contained and ultralite.
    That or save a couple more pounds by using stuff sacks instead of panniers. I tried using UltraSil dry bags and found them pretty fragile, but have since gotten some dry bags (Sea to Summit Evac) that are still pretty light and much more substantial. The Evacs weigh about 8 ounces for the two and a set of bungees to attach them to the side of the rack. The ultrasils looked pretty beat after a 2400 mile tour, but I think they could be nursed along about twice that far. I expect the Evacs to last much longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    As to yourboyblue's question about framebags - I wonder if a frame bag can cause compression fatigue in carbon tubes? I know several people that have cracked carbon seatposts via seatpost racks, and seatposts are much thicker than carbon frametubes.
    My guess would be that the load is spread enough with most frame bags for it to not be a problem. Just a guess though.

  25. #125
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i think its tough to fit even UL loads into a carradice. I've done it, and its suboptimal IMO.

    Nun has traditionally strapped his tent - the largest element of a UN packers' load - under his saddle.

    A rack and light panniers make it much easier to pack fully contained and ultralite.

    As to yourboyblue's question about framebags - I wonder if a frame bag can cause compression fatigue in carbon tubes? I know several people that have cracked carbon seatposts via seatpost racks, and seatposts are much thicker than carbon frametubes.
    Carbon seatposts don't play well with seatpost racks because the cantilevered rack imposes a very large bending moment on the seatpost with notching/stress riser behavior at top and bottom of the attachment bracket. That's why all seatpost rack manufacturers state very clearly not to use their rack with a carbon seatpost. None of these forces would be in play with a frame bag. The velcro straps will scratch the finish on any bike however, so always protect under the straps with abrasion tape.

    Also FYI carbon/epoxy laminate is the most fatigue resistant material currently available from which to build bike frames. It's even better than wood, previously the most fatigue resistant construction material. Almost all unstayed boat masts and windturbine blades, which are subject to a cyclical loading similar to that of trees, are being built in carbon fiber.

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