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  1. #1
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    Parts compatibility questions (drivetrain/BB)

    Hello,

    After lurking for a couple of years, this is the first time I've posted a question.

    I'm just beginning to collect parts to build a light-touring bike. I'm trying to find a good balance between cost/quality.

    I was given a NOS Ultegra 6500 (octalink v1) triple crankset and have salvaged a nice 9 speed (11-23) Ultegra cassette from another bike. I've been looking around on ebay for NOS derailleurs and a bottom bracket that would be compatible. Would any 105 and Dura Ace 9 speed/triple derailleurs work with the cranks and cassette I have? And also, would a Dura Ace 118.5mm BB work with these cranks? Sheldon Brown's BB database lists the Ultegra chainline as being 45mm, but the Dura Ace is listed as 47.5.

    And of course, any other advice is welcome... I'm completely new to this and am learning as I go along.

    Regards,

    Eric

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    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    I would use a 9-speed Tiagra FD-4503 front derailleur and not a 10-speed 105 or Ultegra.

    You will need a 118.5 Octalink V1 bottom bracket for triple. Any 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace model will work.
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    Thanks for the reply.

    Why do you recommend the Tiagra over the 105 or Ultegra?

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    Eric, The Tiagra is very much admired by tourers for it's performance as well as it's dollar value in particular for an indexed road group FD. Be sure to use a FD designed for a triple crankset for the best possible shifting performance. Also, be sure that the rear derailleur is compatible with a triple.

    Gearing is an oft debated subject, but I think most will agree that while the 11-23 is a great close ratio cassette something along the lines of a 12-28 will make climbs with gear more enjoyable. Keep the 11-23 for unloaded riding.

    Brad

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    Well, the Tiagra is well regarded for its adaptability to MTB triple cranksets, which are not the subject of this discussion yet.

    I am not sure why anyone would discount 105 or Dura Ace FDs as being suitable for an older Ultregra triple crankset.

    I don't know about the terrain on the main island of Japan, but Hokkaido was an island that impressed me as being ripe for lower gearing than a 30T granny and 23T big cog when loaded touring. For credit-card touring, you might get away with 30-23.

    It is possible to get a 28 or 26T inner ring for a road crankset, and I would seriously consider going for a cassette with at least a 28, but more likely 30 or 32T big cog. That may mean an MTB rear derailleur, however.
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    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
    .

    Gearing is an oft debated subject, but I think most will agree that while the 11-23 is a great close ratio cassette something along the lines of a 12-28 will make climbs with gear more enjoyable. Keep the 11-23 for unloaded riding.

    Brad
    +1

    I would install a 28t, or a 26t front chainring in the inside location. I would also use a Shimano HG-61 12-36 9-speed Cassette and a Deore SGS RD-M591 Rear Derailleur.
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    Road triple and "salvaged a nice 9 speed (11-23) Ultegra cassette from another bike."

    No much in low gear , way too much in the higher ranges.. maybe if you tour with lots of Money,

    so You dont need to bring much, and re buy services daily , AKA 'credit card touring'
    a Race ready kit will keep you satisfied.

    and that salvaged Cassette unless salvaged with minute use before hand
    will , being worn, suck when you as you must , put a new chain on..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    +1

    I would install a 28t, or a 26t front chainring in the inside location. I would also use a Shimano HG-61 12-36 9-speed Cassette and a Deore SGS RD-M591 Rear Derailleur.
    Yes, a good combination. We have the 28-36 as the granny on our tandem, although the cassette is an 11-36.

    The SGS long-cage certainly would be needed to cope with the 36T cog.

    The beauty of the relatively new 11-36 or 12-36 cassettes is that they allow you to retain the road triple cranks without giving too much away when compared with putting on MTB cranks.

    It means you can retain a road triple front derailleur that was designed to go with STI shifters.

    The only issue with the 36T cassettes is that the spacing between the gears isn't as consistent as it is with the 11-34 ones.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    10 speed 105 and higher fd will not clear the 42t middle ring on the 6500 triple. Stay with 9 speed. Shimano is currently selling only one level of the road octalink bb, I think a 5500/105. I would avoid the DA version even if you can find one. It was a different design and supposedly was not as durable as the others.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
    10 speed 105 and higher fd will not clear the 42t middle ring on the 6500 triple. Stay with 9 speed. Shimano is currently selling only one level of the road octalink bb, I think a 5500/105. I would avoid the DA version even if you can find one. It was a different design and supposedly was not as durable as the others.
    You can run a 10-speed 39T middle ring on a 9-speed triple. Doesn't make any difference. If you're going to run a granny less than 30T, you definitely should change out the middle ring, too. Cassette and ring sizes only depend on how strong you are and how much you carry. One size does not fit all.

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    Hey guys,

    Thanks to everyone for all the helpful suggestions.

    Ok, so it sounds like the racing triple isn't necessarily as much of an issue as the cassette. So I'm thinking I'll dump the cassette I have and get something geared lower, like a 12-28, and then replace the smallest of the rings for a 26T (which would then make it 52-42-26). I'd like to keep compatibility issues to a minimum though. I do speak some Japanese, but the language barrier still trips me up from time to time, and so when finding parts for this project here in Tokyo, it's better to go for a sure thing rather than a combination that *maybe probably might* work... especially since return policies here are not nearly as forgiving as they are in the States, so I think I'd prefer to just use standard road derailleurs rather than try to figure out what mtb gear might work if I went really big in the rear and really small in the front. I'm not planning on touring fully loaded (at least, not for now), it'll be light/credit card touring anyway. Does this gearing sound like it'd be practical enough? (Not sure if it's helpful, but it might be worth mentioning I'm in my mid 30s, and fit).

    Thanks again.

  12. #12
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    That sounds great, but I'd still recommend trading out the 42 for a 39. Has to be a 39T triple ring. Buy a stainless steel 26. That gearing will be plenty low for most purposes.
    Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 09-25-12 at 10:37 AM.

  13. #13
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    I'll chime in since I'm running the same crankset with a ver1 octalink 105 cartridge BB and a DA FD.. I am however running a 7 cassette in the rear. But I gotta say the DA FD shifts so smoothly and nicely... it was a serious improvement over the 105 FD I was running before, I know 105 and tiagra both are excellent pricepoints.. but if you can get a deal I'd say either get a Deore XT FD or a DA FD... I've gotten kinda nuts so if I had to settle for something lower it'd be ultegra. My question now is, why would you want to ditch the 9 speed cassette? You have it and it works right, right? What kind of frame is this on? How light do you plan to travel? I'm in my early 30's myself and semi fit.. I have no trouble even loaded traveling right up a hill in the small front with I think my 22 tooth in the rear.. I'm also curious what shifters you're using for this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    That sounds great, but I'd still recommend trading out the 42 for a 39. Has to be a 39T triple ring. Buy a stainless steel 26. That gearing will be plenty low for most purposes.
    Do I need to change out the 42 for a 39 because the jump from 42 to 26 is too large, or is it just your preference? Also, stainless... is this because this ring is smaller and is experiencing more torque and so the extra strength is needed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    My question now is, why would you want to ditch the 9 speed cassette? You have it and it works right, right? What kind of frame is this on? How light do you plan to travel? I'm in my early 30's myself and semi fit.. I have no trouble even loaded traveling right up a hill in the small front with I think my 22 tooth in the rear.. I'm also curious what shifters you're using for this?
    It's not on any frame yet, BUT, I'm expecting all this to go on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm ditching the cassette basically because I know nothing about touring, and everyone seems to be warning me against using a racing cassette.

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    If the cassette you have now has the cogs you want/need, then I would not give to much weight to whether it was conceived as racer bits or a touring toys. Generally thought the racer oriented stuff will be more costly and not normally have the cogs you want for touring.

    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    It's not on any frame yet, BUT, I'm expecting all this to go on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm ditching the cassette basically because I know nothing about touring, and everyone seems to be warning me against using a racing cassette.

  17. #17
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    It's not on any frame yet, BUT, I'm expecting all this to go on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm ditching the cassette basically because I know nothing about touring, and everyone seems to be warning me against using a racing cassette.
    Well, you can always put it together and order another cassette later!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Well, you can always put it together and order another cassette later!
    Good point. I suppose I could try out the package, and then adjust as I see fit. It might save me money in the long run. And at the very least, if I'm bound to use a different cassette/chainrings, then I would have some practical experience on the bike to inform my choices rather than basing them on theory. The only problem with trying out a racing triple equipped touring bike around Tokyo is that it's VERY flat. I may not discover what I need until I get it up in the mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    I'll chime in since I'm running the same crankset with a ver1 octalink 105 cartridge BB and a DA FD... I'm also curious what shifters you're using for this?
    I haven't chosen any shifters yet. I'm still trying to decide if I want to use drops, or maybe butterfly bars. Though, if I go with drops, I think I'll stick with integrated shifters rather than bar end. I know bar end shifters are more reliable, but I like the convenience of STI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    Do I need to change out the 42 for a 39 because the jump from 42 to 26 is too large, or is it just your preference? Also, stainless... is this because this ring is smaller and is experiencing more torque and so the extra strength is needed?
    The 42T to 26T is a pretty good drop so a frame saver that keeps the chain off the frame is a good idea. Use the 42T and evaluate.

    Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    It's not on any frame yet, BUT, I'm expecting all this to go on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm ditching the cassette basically because I know nothing about touring, and everyone seems to be warning me against using a racing cassette.
    No point in ditching the 11-23 cassette. It'll be perfectly good for flat land riding with no load or even lightly loaded. Install the 12-28 when you expect any long and/or steep climbing.

    Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
    No point in ditching the 11-23 cassette. It'll be perfectly good for flat land riding with no load or even lightly loaded. Install the 12-28 when you expect any long and/or steep climbing.

    Brad
    After thinking about it, a tour is probably a year off at this point, and so I like the advice of using what I have and experimenting with things for a few hundred miles so I can learn what different gear ratios actually feel like rather than trying to imagine it (besides, the trial period will give me some time to ride my bike on enough shorter trips to break in the Brooks saddle I just bought before going on a tour). Though I don't doubt all the advice given to me, it may be better to experiment myself, and re-read the advice offered here as I make my gearing decisions a little later on... I'm building my own bike rather than buying a complete one because I want to learn, and this may be the best way to learn.

    So, RD question... At the moment, I don't have a rear derailleur, and was planning on getting a long cage 105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace because I was just assuming that I'd be changing out cassettes and chainrings for lower gears. Now that I've decided to experiment with the 30-42-52 Ultegra race triple, and my 11-23 race cassette knowing it's possible (probable?) I'll be making some gearing changes later, can I use a long cage derailleur with no trouble? I don't want to invest in a short or medium cage RD and then just have to buy another one later.

    Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    After thinking about it, a tour is probably a year off at this point, and so I like the advice of using what I have and experimenting with things for a few hundred miles so I can learn what different gear ratios actually feel like rather than trying to imagine it (besides, the trial period will give me some time to ride my bike on enough shorter trips to break in the Brooks saddle I just bought before going on a tour). Though I don't doubt all the advice given to me, it may be better to experiment myself, and re-read the advice offered here as I make my gearing decisions a little later on... I'm building my own bike rather than buying a complete one because I want to learn, and this may be the best way to learn.

    So, RD question... At the moment, I don't have a rear derailleur, and was planning on getting a long cage 105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace because I was just assuming that I'd be changing out cassettes and chainrings for lower gears. Now that I've decided to experiment with the 30-42-52 Ultegra race triple, and my 11-23 race cassette knowing it's possible (probable?) I'll be making some gearing changes later, can I use a long cage derailleur with no trouble? I don't want to invest in a short or medium cage RD and then just have to buy another one later.

    Thanks again.
    This is what some of us encourage. Experimenting yourself is such a valuable tool in developing touring experience. It's how most of us older types can give advice... because we've been there and done it.
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  24. #24
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skreee View Post
    So, RD question... At the moment, I don't have a rear derailleur, and was planning on getting a long cage 105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace because I was just assuming that I'd be changing out cassettes and chainrings for lower gears. Now that I've decided to experiment with the 30-42-52 Ultegra race triple, and my 11-23 race cassette knowing it's possible (probable?) I'll be making some gearing changes later, can I use a long cage derailleur with no trouble? I don't want to invest in a short or medium cage RD and then just have to buy another one later.

    Thanks again.
    A road triple, like the Tiagra, 105 or Ultegra, has a cog size limit and a chain wrap limit. The published cog size limit is 27 or 28 teeth, depending on which model. The practical cog size limit is 30 or 32 teeth, depending on several factors. Most touring cyclist want a cassette with a large cog with 34 or 36 teeth. Chain wrap limit is also an issue with a wide gear range. A road derailleur cannot be used with these large cog cassettes and the chain wrap requirements of a touring bike.

    A mountain bike rear derailleur can be used with a smaller road cassette, including an 11-23.

    I would select a mountain rear derailleur immediately, since it can be used with any cassette and can be adapted to almost any chain wrap requirement.

    Here I have a Deore MTB rear derailleur with a 50, 29 & 26t chainring set and a 12-32 cassette. I can use any cassette from a 11-23 to an 11-34 on this bike without lengthening the chain. I can also use a 12-36 cassette, if I add a few links of chain.

    Last edited by Barrettscv; 10-06-12 at 05:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    A mountain bike rear derailleur can be used with a smaller road cassette, including an 11-23.

    I would select a mountain rear derailleur immediately, since it can be used with any cassette and can be adapted to almost any chain wrap requirement.

    Here I have a Deore MTB rear derailleur with a 50, 29 & 26t chainring set and a 12-32 cassette. I can use any cassette from a 11-23 to an 11-34 on this bike without lengthening the chain. I can also use a 12-36 cassette, if I add a few links of chain.
    Thanks for the advice, it seems this is the most versatile way to go and will give me the maximum number of options later on when I decide what I want to do. Are there any issues with using a new MTB rear derailleur with my older 9 speed road cassette? Or do I need to get a specific mountain RD to mate with my cassette?

    Thanks again!

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