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  1. #51
    I don't know. RB1-luvr's Avatar
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    very nice bike. I would ride that.
    Rast ich so rost ich. (When I rest, I rust)

  2. #52
    Cyclist storckm's Avatar
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    I did have an eyelet break off once.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RB1-luvr View Post
    very nice bike. I would ride that.
    Yes, but would you pay for it to ride it?
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  4. #54
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    Yeah, eyelets do break. There have been threads here on occasion. The more common problems seems to be bolt breakge but that is something that happen on long tours etc... and the people reporting it may be riding decent bikes to start with.

    One of the problems is poor alignment. those eyelets need to be aligned just like any other part of the bike. But whether this happens on Taiwan product any more than any other part of the bike. Not likely. So if the drop is well made, and the flange/web the eyelet is connected to is laterally positionable, as here, you have the basis of alignment.

    Further issue thread quality fit, bearing etc... You look at the quality of screw fit on a high end ***, that is one thing. Then look at drop to scew fit on the average bike, about as much contact as a pinball in a game. There are lots of quality issues that are just not there on cheap frames. If these fits are not good then torque, or loctite come into play, and normally all is well. But just to say, when a failure occurs it isn't always the obvious things that are the cause. And you may get something for your custom frame dollar.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
    Form follows function = LHT

    Function follows form = VO Campeur
    I have basically said the same thing, if not as elegantly. But the other side to that is that the form being copied the french classics, are prized in part for their retro grouch appeal, but also for their function, so it gets circular beyond a certain point. Others who persued this line, as with the Kogswell Porteur have put in a lot of work or geometry and load carrying. There are views about ride. All we know for a fact is that the steerer choice is retro, but something that some prefer on function. Would not be my first stem choice, but like everything else I successfully used for 40 plus years, not going to worry me too much. Not every detail on the LHT is perfect either. As others have said, once you depart from the sweet spot LHT has tried to occupy, you might as well do something a little different.

  6. #56
    nun
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    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    I have basically said the same thing, if not as elegantly. But the other side to that is that the form being copied the french classics, are prized in part for their retro grouch appeal, but also for their function, so it gets circular beyond a certain point. Others who persued this line, as with the Kogswell Porteur have put in a lot of work or geometry and load carrying. There are views about ride. All we know for a fact is that the steerer choice is retro, but something that some prefer on function. Would not be my first stem choice, but like everything else I successfully used for 40 plus years, not going to worry me too much. Not every detail on the LHT is perfect either. As others have said, once you depart from the sweet spot LHT has tried to occupy, you might as well do something a little different.
    A lot of the retro grouch appeal of the Campeur is in the build......and the threaded fork of course. But you could build it up in a very non-grouchy way. I get a little annoyed at bikes like the LHT that are sturdy and marketed as tourers as it pigeon holes them. I like it when people do different things with bikes, like the LHT single speed on a recent thread. Bikes are really very adaptable

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    Yeah, eyelets do break. There have been threads here on occasion. The more common problems seems to be bolt breakge but that is something that happen on long tours etc... and the people reporting it may be riding decent bikes to start with.

    One of the problems is poor alignment. those eyelets need to be aligned just like any other part of the bike. But whether this happens on Taiwan product any more than any other part of the bike. Not likely. So if the drop is well made, and the flange/web the eyelet is connected to is laterally positionable, as here, you have the basis of alignment.

    Further issue thread quality fit, bearing etc... You look at the quality of screw fit on a high end ***, that is one thing. Then look at drop to scew fit on the average bike, about as much contact as a pinball in a game. There are lots of quality issues that are just not there on cheap frames. If these fits are not good then torque, or loctite come into play, and normally all is well. But just to say, when a failure occurs it isn't always the obvious things that are the cause. And you may get something for your custom frame dollar.
    As to breakages with racks and eyelets...

    Quite often, the problem lies with giving the bolt an extra tweak -- or rather, an extra gorilla reef -- because tighter must be better. It's the same with pedal spindles on cranks.

    Another problem is forcing the leg of the rack into a position it doesn't want to go... unless it is carefully bent to that position further up near the top. To my mind, the rack should mate up on each side to the eyelet without any tension on it.

    I had a bit a challenge with a Topeak Tourist rack on the tandem, a Santana with the wide, wide dropouts. I carefully bent the legs of the rack outward, then used a piece of tubing to carefully bend the bottom two inches of the legs back into a vertical position. Will it affect the longevity of the rack because it's aluminium? Possibly, but it hasn't let me down yet, albeit with light loads.

    These issues aren't the fault of the eyelets.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  8. #58
    djb
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    good points Rowan, the gorilla reef (cute way of putting it, very visual) and I agree about getting a rack to line up well-I believe it puts a lot less stress on the eyelet if everything is lined up without any force to begin with.

    My feeling too on problems often comes from bolts getting loose and not being noticed being loose. At a certain point, this is going to put all kinds of stresses on the threads and such, especially with a bunch of weight on a rack and hitting a pothole or whatever, its going to put a hell of a lot more force on the attachment point than if it is properly tightened, and over time could easily cause more and more structural damage. (and especially too if the rack isnt lined up well and is putting that stress into the bolt too)

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    How often do you raise and/or lower your stem? Mine are pretty much set once and forgotten. I don't cut my steer tube down on a new fork or bike until I've decided where I want my stem and even then I leave a little room on top for adjustment...which I never use.
    Mine has been going up every six months, as my neck gets worse and worse. So for me, threaded is better than threadless. That doesn't necessarily mean anything to anybody else, but does buttress my argument that threadless is not automatically better.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Threadless has the advantage if you want to do a fork replacement.
    Really? This is your argument, presented immediately after questioning how often someone might need to adjust handlebar height? Good times!

    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Totally agree. There are some threaded stems that have faceplates but they are relatively rare.
    My post apparently didn't translate to Australian very well. I was trying to point out that ease of handlebar replacement was one of the advantages of threadless. I just don't see at as much of an advantage - I don't think the average touring cyclist is replacing his bars all that often.

    At any rate, I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing that threaded is better than threadless in general, . I'm just arguing that the the supposed advantages of threadless are, for the most part, theoretical, and that threaded is still a perfectly useful technology. Denigrating a touring bike because the headset is not threadless is, IMO, kind of silly.
    Last edited by Six jours; 10-02-12 at 11:28 PM.

  10. #60
    djb
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    wouldnt it be fair to say that the quality of a given headset will play a big part in how long it stays adjusted properly, and gives a nice solid feel? threaded or not?
    In my limited experience that is a big factor.

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    Yep.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    Mine has been going up every six months, as my neck gets worse and worse. So for me, threaded is better than threadless. That doesn't necessarily mean anything to anybody else, but does buttress my argument that threadless is not automatically better.
    You will run out of quill eventually. Then there are those monster long ones I've seen in Europe you can start using. Truly, I didn't think quill stems were made that long. Then if you get one with an adjustable stem on it, you can keep going up and up to your heart's content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    My post apparently didn't translate to Australian very well. I was trying to point out that ease of handlebar replacement was one of the advantages of threadless. I just don't see at as much of an advantage - I don't think the average touring cyclist is replacing his bars all that often.

    At any rate, I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing that threaded is better than threadless in general, . I'm just arguing that the the supposed advantages of threadless are, for the most part, theoretical, and that threaded is still a perfectly useful technology. Denigrating a touring bike because the headset is not threadless is, IMO, kind of silly.
    Both your points are taken.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  13. #63
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    you could run one of these


    absurdly huge quill to threadless adaptor


    and use a threadless stem on it. both problems solved. Quite the kludge, but every time I brought one of these foot long quill extenders out of the back to show a customer with 'inflexible fit' issues, their eyes lit up as if i had unveiled the holy grail.

    this bike should be offered with a threadless fork option.

    To me the current option is akin to speccing a bike with rod brakes and 28 and 1/2 inch tires. On the bright side, this might put the stranglehold on bicycle dealers that offer 2,000 dollar taiwanese frames with quill stems.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-03-12 at 05:52 AM.
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  14. #64
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    Mine has been going up every six months, as my neck gets worse and worse. So for me, threaded is better than threadless. That doesn't necessarily mean anything to anybody else, but does buttress my argument that threadless is not automatically better.
    Your situation is unique. It doesn't apply to all that many people and is certainly not a reason to say that threaded headsets are better. Threaded headsets have lots and lots of warts that I've pointed out above. Their tendency to loosen is certainly a large one. I've never had a theadless headset loosen because of road/trail vibration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    Really? This is your argument, presented immediately after questioning how often someone might need to adjust handlebar height? Good times!
    You could have at least read my post. I said that changing forks isn't something that you do that often for road bikes but that it is more common for mountain bikes. I didn't change the fork because I wanted more handlebar height. I changed the fork because I wanted a better suspension fork for the bike. It was an upgrade.

    On the other hand, how often do you take apart your headset to do maintenance? If you have loose bearings and take it apart once or twice a year to service it, you are having to deal with the ease...or lack thereof...of the headset. For a threadless headset, that's a simple job which takes about about as much time as my fork swap did. For a threaded headset, it's much more involved and tiresome. (I have King headsets on everything so I don't take the headset apart except to change the fork.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    My post apparently didn't translate to Australian very well. I was trying to point out that ease of handlebar replacement was one of the advantages of threadless. I just don't see at as much of an advantage - I don't think the average touring cyclist is replacing his bars all that often.

    At any rate, I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing that threaded is better than threadless in general, . I'm just arguing that the the supposed advantages of threadless are, for the most part, theoretical, and that threaded is still a perfectly useful technology. Denigrating a touring bike because the headset is not threadless is, IMO, kind of silly.
    Not Australian.

    Why not denigrate a touring bike for something that is, in my opinion, a wrong choice given the current state of the technology? If a manufacturer sold a touring bike with a 12-21 5 speed freewheel, I'd take them to task. If a manufacturer sold a bike that was outfitted for racks and fenders, yet has a racing bike geometry, I'd certainly take them to task. I've done that numerous times. I even find touring bikes with disc brakes worthy of denigration.
    Stuart Black
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  15. #65
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djb View Post
    wouldnt it be fair to say that the quality of a given headset will play a big part in how long it stays adjusted properly, and gives a nice solid feel? threaded or not?
    In my limited experience that is a big factor.
    Nope. I've suffered through the age of threaded headsets and mountain bikes. Even when using the very top of the line threaded headset, they all...and I'm not exaggerating...came loose eventually. The constant pounding that mountain bike headset experience loosened the headset. Basically, you pumped up the tires, replaced the headset, went for a ride, checked the headset half way through and the replaced at the end. I bought headsets by the case It kinds of sours a guy towards threaded heasets.

    There was a large cottage industry making modified shaft collars to lock the top nut in place. Rivendell still sells them. This bit is telling

    For the most part, when you adjust a normal threaded headset properly, that's it, it'll stay put. But for five bucks, what the heck, this thing here is a good deal and a smart purchase if you ride off road a lot or have a longish tour planned.
    It's the 'for the most part' that will get ya.

    BikePro.com is a website for an old mail order company that doesn't exist. Oddly enough, the site has been kept on line since the mid90s and is kind of a fly in amber look at equipment from that age. The link above shows two of the boutique headset locknuts that were made to solve the problems of threaded headsets. You can find other headsets that came with this kind of lock nut from the manufacturer on the site. Once the threadless headset hit the market, the problem of loose headsets just went away along with locknuts.
    Last edited by cyccommute; 10-03-12 at 10:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Why not denigrate a touring bike for something that is, in my opinion, a wrong choice given the current state of the technology?
    Because it is a vintage bike clone. It is like passing comment on a fur coat because it isn't performance wise a Gortex and down jacket. People have other reasons for buying fur. Those are open to criticism, but not because they failed to keep up with the lattest tech.

    I'm comfortable with Cantis, I have pretty much owned, and can work on all the other options, but I like cantis. At a certain point I don't care whether they make something better. An electric brake, might turn me off, but a hydro system for road, might get me hot. I just happen to like cantis. So what would turn my crank would be a road lever that was worthy of my Paul cantis, or better cabling. There are always ways to make something better. And there is only so much time to try other stuff out.

    Some people just like threaded. There are solutions to many of the problems like the Chris King Gripnut, maybe. Folks who used to ride an old bike and now have a ton of money, might get a kick out of outfitting it with all the familliar stuff, but made to a level of candy that they never could have imagined back in the day. That makes some people happier than buying today's improved cheap crap. They could buy the improved stuff in candy form, but they aren't invested enough in that to get anything out of it.

    CC, Why don't you like disc brakes?

  17. #67
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    Because it is a vintage bike clone. It is like passing comment on a fur coat because it isn't performance wise a Gortex and down jacket. People have other reasons for buying fur. Those are open to criticism, but not because they failed to keep up with the lattest tech.
    There are some technologies that are a vast improvement over the old stuff and some that is all hype. Threadless just happens to be vastly superior to threaded for the reasons I've listed above. "Vintage" just means stuck in the past to me. Do you actually dial someone on the phone? Use a Commodore 64 with dial up for posting on line? Drive a standard transmission with a 4 barrel carburetor? Wear wool tights, wool shorts and wool jerseys for riding? Rotary phones, dial up modems, standard transmissions, carburetors, wool clothing, etc. were all the best that we could do in the day. We've improved and moved on. Only in bicycling do we hang onto the past so tightly.

    But what of those of us who don't hang onto the past so tightly. I have the money to buy one of the Velo Orange bikes but I won't because, quite frankly, I don't need the headache of dealing with an inferior bit of the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    I'm comfortable with Cantis, I have pretty much owned, and can work on all the other options, but I like cantis. At a certain point I don't care whether they make something better. An electric brake, might turn me off, but a hydro system for road, might get me hot. I just happen to like cantis. So what would turn my crank would be a road lever that was worthy of my Paul cantis, or better cabling. There are always ways to make something better. And there is only so much time to try other stuff out.
    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    CC, Why don't you like disc brakes?
    Like I said somethings are improvements and some things are hype. Hub mounted disc brakes fall into the hype category. Bicycles have been equipped with disc brakes since the invention of the caliper brake. 99.99% of the braking problems that people experience with various brake types are due to the rider. Either then don't understand how to use the brake properly...there is a technique for braking that most people don't understand... or they don't understand how to set the brake up properly. One...improper technique...usually follows the other...improper set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    Some people just like threaded. There are solutions to many of the problems like the Chris King Gripnut, maybe.
    Some people like liver too. There's no accounting for taste. And, yes, there are many solutions to the problem of loose threaded headsets. I linked to a few. I've used a few. The threadless headset is also one and just happens to be the best solution to the problem.
    Last edited by cyccommute; 10-03-12 at 03:30 PM.
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  18. #68
    Senior Member mparker326's Avatar
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    For MTBs threadless may be better, but for road bikes threaded is non-issue. The VO bike isn't a MTB.

    I buy mainly used bikes and am tall (6'5"). I appreciate threaded because I can get the bars up to a comfortable height with a Nitto Technomic stem. On the new bikes that I have bought that had threadless, (before I was concerned with handlebar height), the fork was already cut and it was cut very low. I had to get stems with a high degree of rise and even then my bars were still several inches below the handlebars.

    The VO bike wouldn't work for me because it doesn't come in a big enough size. Although with a long enough seatpost and a big enough stem, I could ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Rotary phones, dial up modems, standard transmissions, carburetors, wool clothing, etc. were all the best that we could do in the day. We've improved and moved on. Only in bicycling do we hang onto the past so tightly.

    But what of those of us who don't hang onto the past so tightly. I have the money to buy one of the Velo Orange bikes but I won't because, quite frankly, I don't need the headache of dealing with an inferior bit of the past.



    The thing is, though, VO markets their stuff for people who do hold on to the past (or at least it's aesthetics) tightly. You're just not in their targeted customer pool. People who like the look are. It's not at all about functionality. I used to have one of those ugly soma stem riser things, but the fact of the matter is that I just prefer the look of a quill stem to a threadless (even on a threadless fork not my kludged up combination). There's no point arguing functionality with someone whose main criteria is aesthetics just like they'll get nowhere telling you how beautiful something is if you only care how well it works.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    BikePro.com is a website for an old mail order company that doesn't exist. Oddly enough, the site has been kept on line since the mid90s and is kind of a fly in amber look at equipment from that age.
    Yeah, that's, like, so weird!

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    Cyccommute, I'm not going to address much of your post because we're obviously talking past each other. I'll just point out, again, that I have extensive experience with threaded headsets and have not had anywhere near as much difficulty as you have had. IMO you either didn't have the right headsets or didn't have them installed correctly.

    <edit> I will address one other bit: wool is making quite a comeback for exercise wear, especially for folks exercising outdoors in all conditions. Over the past few years I have replace a number of "high tech" garments (including cycling jerseys) with wool and have found that it often works better. Of course, the "shiny flashy new must be better!" folks get all upset about that sort of thing. Maybe the colors aren't garish enough for them.
    Last edited by Six jours; 10-03-12 at 06:52 PM.

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    re wool, I really really love wool socks, makes all the diff for my feet to not get athletes foot as quickly as with synthetics (dont know why) and I also really really love my thin wool longsleeve half zippered with highish collar top. I love how its not too hot when its warmer, but is great at around 15c with a jersey over it. I also really like that it doesnt smell like other stuff.
    I do however really really love modern jerseys I have that in hot weather breathe so well, better than some of my older ones, and makes riding in 30c so much more comfortable.

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    Senior Member Aushiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djb View Post
    re wool, I really really love wool socks, makes all the diff for my feet to not get athletes foot as quickly as with synthetics (dont know why) and I also really really love my thin wool longsleeve half zippered with highish collar top. I love how its not too hot when its warmer, but is great at around 15c with a jersey over it. I also really like that it doesnt smell like other stuff.
    I do however really really love modern jerseys I have that in hot weather breathe so well, better than some of my older ones, and makes riding in 30c so much more comfortable.
    Another vote for wool socks and wool jerseys and believe it or not for riding in hot conditions where the temperature got up to around 40 c on the bike. I wore Ground Effect Ankle Biters on my recent Chasing the Dirt tour and in fact wore them for 10 plus days at one stage between washes. They where very impressive.



    On the jersey front I took two Ground Effect jerseys. A Rock Lobster jersey and a Manta Ray.


    This is the Manta Ray colour I took.

    I found the Rock Lobster was good up to around 30 C but the Manta Ray was great on even the hotest days (40 C range). My only negative with the Manta Ray is that I would love the same level of performance but with long sleeves to improve the sun protection. Oh the Rock Lobster is a tighter fit, more a roadie fit and has three pockets whereas the Manta Ray is looser, more MTB style and only one zip pocket.

    As with the socks, these jerseys, particularly the Manta Ray went long periods (up to 10+ days) between washes and they survived well without smelling bad. Very impressed with them. The other cool thing about them was even on the hot days if there was a bit of wind around I could feel the cooling effect of the wicking. Nice indeed.

    I will be buying Ground Effect again for sure even though I do like "modern" jerseys as well.

    Andrew

  24. #74
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Not offering a threadless fork simply reduces potential sales.
    I'll never again buy a bike with a threadless fork. I have several bikes now that I "outgrew" when I discovered that my ideal saddle height is 1 cm higher than I thought it was. These are bikes I ride longer distances---like I would the Campeur, if I had one---and the bars are now lower than I'd like relative to the saddle. I want the flexibility that threaded offers, and I've decided that I won't consider any bike that doesn't offer it.

  25. #75
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mparker326 View Post
    For MTBs threadless may be better, but for road bikes threaded is non-issue. The VO bike isn't a MTB.
    Many of the same issues that conspire to loosen threaded headsets in mountain bikes are present in loaded touring. A road racing bike will probably never loosen a headset but add a load in excess of the rider and lots of stuff changes. I've had road headset loosen on tour. It's not easy to fix.
    Stuart Black
    Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
    An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.

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