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Old 01-27-13, 01:43 PM   #151
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Pretty much any frame from the 1970-80's can be built up as a touring rig. Why pay hundreds of dollars for a chromoly frame you can find at the dumps or thrift store? Surly and Velo Orange don't make anything special. They just took a practical design of the past and marketed it to make a hefty profit.

Wheels and hubs are of more importance than the frame of a touring rig. Get a good old fashioned dumpster chromoly frame and have her aligned by a pro frame builder. Get some wheels and ride.
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Old 01-27-13, 02:39 PM   #152
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Jesus wept. I'm officially giving up on you people.
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Old 01-27-13, 06:36 PM   #153
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Clearly all steel frames with threaded forks are pretty much interchangeable.

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Pretty much any frame from the 1970-80's can be built up as a touring rig. Why pay hundreds of dollars for a chromoly frame you can find at the dumps or thrift store? Surly and Velo Orange don't make anything special. They just took a practical design of the past and marketed it to make a hefty profit.

Wheels and hubs are of more importance than the frame of a touring rig. Get a good old fashioned dumpster chromoly frame and have her aligned by a pro frame builder. Get some wheels and ride.
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Old 01-27-13, 06:55 PM   #154
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Jesus wept. I'm officially giving up on you people.
Probably the best response to this whole thread. It's a big letdown.
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Old 01-27-13, 09:00 PM   #155
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Jesus wept. I'm officially giving up on you people.
and after the Ashtabula was mentioned as the pinnacle of bottom bracket functionality?

Lest not forget the debate over the merits of slack chain shifting (so functional, no derailleurs!). Who needs a frame with a rear derailleur hanger?

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Old 01-27-13, 09:28 PM   #156
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Keep it up, Bek, and I'll start shouting "Grant Petersen!" and then lock the exits on my way out.
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Old 01-27-13, 09:34 PM   #157
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Probably the best response to this whole thread. It's a big letdown.
Lemme see if I can encapsulate:

Velo Orange has a new frame. The rack attachments might be strong enough to attach racks. Or maybe not. It's designed for a headset that worked fine for 100 years but doesn't anymore, unless it does. If you can find one at the dump that'd be cool. Grant Petersen! Grant Petersen!

So with that out of the way, anyone up for a debate on partial birth abortion?
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Old 01-27-13, 10:08 PM   #158
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I think when one gets into the question of touring on non-Surly touring bikes, the form over function thing comes up also. Granted, there are probably a few serious cross racers out there getting dual duty out of their CCs, But I have seen tons of threads and a lot of it sounds like poser 101. Of course the people who are 100% function oriented are also posers.





Exactlty, relative to the Surly it is form over function as opposed to function over form. You have convinced me.
What you're doing right now is called creating a false dichotomy. You're suggesting that either a bike is built based on function OR on form. You might as well be arguing that someone can either be smart or good-looking, but not both. It's nonsense. Function and form can both achieved simultaneously. If you need an example, look at a 50's randonneuring bike, an iphone, samurai sword, or a Lamborghini.


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Old 01-27-13, 10:13 PM   #159
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Yea But, Who got one and where are the pictures of it?

Here's a pic if mine. Here's also a series of photos of someone else's build that puts mine to shame (that or they just have a lot better lighting).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69421720@N02/8411095985/
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Old 01-27-13, 10:17 PM   #160
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For those of you who came to this thread to actually learn more about the Campeur, and not just rattle off about headsets, here's a pretty good review by gypsybytrade. http://gypsybytrade.wordpress.com/20...f-the-campeur/
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Old 04-13-14, 12:05 PM   #161
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Pretty much any frame from the 1970-80's can be built up as a touring rig. Why pay hundreds of dollars for a chromoly frame you can find at the dumps or thrift store? Surly and Velo Orange don't make anything special. They just took a practical design of the past and marketed it to make a hefty profit.

Wheels and hubs are of more importance than the frame of a touring rig. Get a good old fashioned dumpster chromoly frame and have her aligned by a pro frame builder. Get some wheels and ride.
Tire size might matter. Lots of older bikes don't take 700 x 38c with fenders (that might matter). Vintage touring bikes aren't that easy to come by and usually command a premium so the price of this is not out of line compared to what a good quality vintage touring frame will bring. I'm reading this thread, in part, because I'm trying to decide whether to keep an old touring bike that badly needs a repaint of whether I will buy a new frame and sell the old one. I've been fence sitting on this decision for a while. Being able to run a 700 x 38c tire and fenders is a good thing on a touring bike.
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Old 04-14-14, 03:38 AM   #162
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What you're doing right now is called creating a false dichotomy. You're suggesting that either a bike is built based on function OR on form. You might as well be arguing that someone can either be smart or good-looking, but not both. It's nonsense. Function and form can both achieved simultaneously. If you need an example, look at a 50's randonneuring bike, an iphone, samurai sword, or a Lamborghini.


That is not what I am doing, there is no, as you say, inherent conflict between form and function. But what that means is that if something were perfectly functional in every respect, then it's form would also be beautiful, but that assumes the observers can take the truth. Most people don't get the function, and they will spend a hundred years resisting clearly superior stuff, like multi-hulled sailboats, or bikes, for that mater. The surly was clearly targeting people who want a practical bike, the name says it. And the same with the velo stuff for the cyclo chic people. Think toilet paper, you can have the perfect blend of strength and softness, but in Britain they sold stuff as hard as aluminum foil on it's strength and sterility. In the US they sell it on whether a kitten would want to take it home to meet it's parents.
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Old 04-14-14, 07:59 AM   #163
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Think toilet paper, you can have the perfect blend of strength and softness, but in Britain they sold stuff as hard as aluminum foil on it's strength and sterility...
so thats where the expression, "lay back and think of England" came from.

makes sense.
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Old 04-14-14, 12:49 PM   #164
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Tire size might matter. Lots of older bikes don't take 700 x 38c with fenders (that might matter). Vintage touring bikes aren't that easy to come by and usually command a premium so the price of this is not out of line compared to what a good quality vintage touring frame will bring. I'm reading this thread, in part, because I'm trying to decide whether to keep an old touring bike that badly needs a repaint of whether I will buy a new frame and sell the old one. I've been fence sitting on this decision for a while. Being able to run a 700 x 38c tire and fenders is a good thing on a touring bike.
This is a converted Raleigh Touring 18 in 650Bx40, with room for even fatter tires. Canti studs moved down by a few mm. Plenty of room for fenders, etc. Very comfy on the local gravel trails. If it needs a repaint anyway, I'd recommend moving studs to 650B or 26", adding any missing braze-ons and powdercoating. Mine turned out pretty good:

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Old 04-14-14, 12:53 PM   #165
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This is a converted Raleigh Touring 18 in 650Bx40, with room for even fatter tires. Canti studs moved down by a few mm. Plenty of room for fenders, etc. Very comfy on the local gravel trails. If it needs a repaint anyway, I'd recommend moving studs to 650B or 26", adding any missing braze-ons and powdercoating. Mine turned out pretty good:

I love the idea of a 650b conversion but this is not something I'm willing to do to my Trek 720. But it's a great idea.
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Old 04-14-14, 02:51 PM   #166
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Yeah- Trek 720 would be better left unmodified. Maybe find a lesser bike for a 650B conversion...
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Old 05-01-14, 06:14 AM   #167
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Just built this VO in China

Not easy to buy from ebay, keep waiting... finally my VO, maybe the first one in China (although most of the parts were made in China or Taiwan)

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Old 11-11-15, 10:53 AM   #168
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I live in Baltimore and have been down to Annapolis several times to visit his shop. The frames are nice but not, in my opinon, up to the stress of long loaded tours. All the stuff is made in China but what isn't these days. This stuff has a cheaply made look that other stuff dosn't. The initial finish looks good but I am unsure about longevity. These things are built for looks not the long haul.


I just don't find the VO bikes all that inspiring. The Campeur I tried reminded me exactly of the Kogswell model P I had a few years ago. Just lifeless and moreover heavy. I had an opportunity to see/touch (although not ride) a vintage Rene Herse and what shocked me was how light the bike was. These Taiwanese 4130 frames, even with their main tubes butted and such, are just too doggone heavy and I found that I seldom rode my Kogswelll -- even though it was kitted out into a really really nice randonneur -- because it was so doggone heavy and dead-feeling. I think one's money is better spent trying to source a 1980s Speciaiized Expedition or Trek high-end touring bike. The build quality is higher, they have real lugs, and are both lighter and more lively.

I am not a weight weenie but I certainly do believe that an excessively heavy bike is just not one you're going to take out of the garage all that often.

Not trying to throw a wet blanket on anything -- a $500 frameset isn't likely to be all that amazing. But you can do a lot better with a bit of creativity, I think. The new VO headbadges are super cheesy, as well. It just has the look of a fairly cheap copy of the real thing, because that's what it is.
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Old 11-11-15, 11:47 AM   #169
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I just don't find the VO bikes all that inspiring. The Campeur I tried reminded me exactly of the Kogswell model P I had a few years ago. Just lifeless and moreover heavy. I had an opportunity to see/touch (although not ride) a vintage Rene Herse and what shocked me was how light the bike was. These Taiwanese 4130 frames, even with their main tubes butted and such, are just too doggone heavy and I found that I seldom rode my Kogswelll -- even though it was kitted out into a really really nice randonneur -- because it was so doggone heavy and dead-feeling. I think one's money is better spent trying to source a 1980s Speciaiized Expedition or Trek high-end touring bike. The build quality is higher, they have real lugs, and are both lighter and more lively.

I am not a weight weenie but I certainly do believe that an excessively heavy bike is just not one you're going to take out of the garage all that often.

Not trying to throw a wet blanket on anything -- a $500 frameset isn't likely to be all that amazing. But you can do a lot better with a bit of creativity, I think. The new VO headbadges are super cheesy, as well. It just has the look of a fairly cheap copy of the real thing, because that's what it is.
Umm... This is the touring section. We're talking about touring bikes here. If you want to load up the bike, lively = flexy as a noodle = death wobble at speed = death. To put it without mildly.
Of course you don't ride a touring bike unloaded! They are not designed for that. Even light loads are probably not enough to give the bike the life it deserves.
I love my LHT fully packed because then it comes to life, but unloaded it's just this horrid train that wants to ride out of corners.
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Old 11-11-15, 12:00 PM   #170
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Umm... This is the touring section. We're talking about touring bikes here. If you want to load up the bike, lively = flexy as a noodle = death wobble at speed = death. To put it without mildly.
Of course you don't ride a touring bike unloaded! They are not designed for that. Even light loads are probably not enough to give the bike the life it deserves.
I love my LHT fully packed because then it comes to life, but unloaded it's just this horrid train that wants to ride out of corners.
I beg to differ, firstly that with the bikes I have used for touring, I have ridden them unloaded all the time, a huge percentage of thier riding lives. So to a certain extent, how a bike rides unloaded can be very relevant to ones enjoyment of the bike overall. My aluminum Spez Tricross is a good example, I really like how it rides unloaded or lightly loaded, as probably 90% of its life it has mabye between 10 and 25lbs on it, but its stiff frame and whatnot that makes it ride more sprightly (but not uncomfortable) with little or no big load on it, also translates to it being perfectly competent with 40lbs on it.
Yes, if I were to do a trip over rough roads a lot, I might consider a diff bike, although putting wider tires on it would make a big iimprovement on rough stuff compared to the 28 slicks I generally use (and have toured on for about 25 years).

I bring this up because I really do figure my bike gets used for actual touring with 40lbs on it very infrequently, so all the 90% of its life with less weight on it (or hardly any) means it is still fun to ride, which to me is a real bonus.
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Old 11-11-15, 02:55 PM   #171
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Umm... This is the touring section. We're talking about touring bikes here. If you want to load up the bike, lively = flexy as a noodle = death wobble at speed = death. To put it without mildly.
Of course you don't ride a touring bike unloaded! They are not designed for that. Even light loads are probably not enough to give the bike the life it deserves.
I love my LHT fully packed because then it comes to life, but unloaded it's just this horrid train that wants to ride out of corners.

I guess that's a fair point. But the old Dawes, Mercian and even Bob Jackson frames didn't have the deadness that some of these Taiwanese offerings do. And to an earlier poster, the Chinese frames often seem to have very sketchy eyelet attachments.

I wouldn't do it when carrying 40lbs of stuff obviously, but one thing I have found is that more and more I'm inclined to carry a backpack. Never been on a bike that drives well with too much weight on the racks unless it's really lashed down super tight.

I note that these Campeur frames are currently on sale at Velo Orange. They must not have sold well because that is a pretty low price. I don't know, I'm pretty skeptical about this low-end constructeur stuff -- that seems like an oxymoron to me.

One other thing: I know they are selling tons of stuff, but I have never once seen a Velo Orange frame in the wild, on either coast of the USA. I've seen plenty of Kogswells and plenty of Surly's. Who are they selling all this gear to?

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Old 11-12-15, 12:57 AM   #172
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I beg to differ, firstly that with the bikes I have used for touring, I have ridden them unloaded all the time, a huge percentage of thier riding lives. So to a certain extent, how a bike rides unloaded can be very relevant to ones enjoyment of the bike overall. My aluminum Spez Tricross is a good example, I really like how it rides unloaded or lightly loaded, as probably 90% of its life it has mabye between 10 and 25lbs on it, but its stiff frame and whatnot that makes it ride more sprightly (but not uncomfortable) with little or no big load on it, also translates to it being perfectly competent with 40lbs on it.
Yes, if I were to do a trip over rough roads a lot, I might consider a diff bike, although putting wider tires on it would make a big iimprovement on rough stuff compared to the 28 slicks I generally use (and have toured on for about 25 years).

I bring this up because I really do figure my bike gets used for actual touring with 40lbs on it very infrequently, so all the 90% of its life with less weight on it (or hardly any) means it is still fun to ride, which to me is a real bonus.
My LHT is a really weird riding bike. You have to be careful in corners since it feels like it just wants to go straight. Also the extremely long chainstay sometimes makes the rear 'drag' which is a really weird feeling. Hard to explain but I just don't like the ride unloaded. Loaded it's perfect.

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I guess that's a fair point. But the old Dawes, Mercian and even Bob Jackson frames didn't have the deadness that some of these Taiwanese offerings do. And to an earlier poster, the Chinese frames often seem to have very sketchy eyelet attachments.

I wouldn't do it when carrying 40lbs of stuff obviously, but one thing I have found is that more and more I'm inclined to carry a backpack. Never been on a bike that drives well with too much weight on the racks unless it's really lashed down super tight.

I note that these Campeur frames are currently on sale at Velo Orange. They must not have sold well because that is a pretty low price. I don't know, I'm pretty skeptical about this low-end constructeur stuff -- that seems like an oxymoron to me.

One other thing: I know they are selling tons of stuff, but I have never once seen a Velo Orange frame in the wild, on either coast of the USA. I've seen plenty of Kogswells and plenty of Surly's. Who are they selling all this gear to?
The dead feel is likely not due to the bikes being taiwanese or even low spec, it's the design. They use larger overall tube diameters and thicker walls to get the stiffness a fully loaded tourer requires. The old tourers might have been ok with loads, but the current offerings are likely much better, and more durable.
My LHT has rock solid eyelets. One was stripped (due to user error) and after I cut new threads it works almost like new.

The problem with the campeur is that it doesn't spec disc brakes which most tourers nowdays prefer. That's what sticking to tradition gets you. Also, I even swapped my LHT's fork for a disc fork to get a disc brake. Velo Orange is also still pretty small so it's no wonder you won't see them around as much. Also, it looks pretty identical to the LHT spec wise, but the LHT has a really good track record while the campeur is a new contender. Not much opinions on it for people to gauge.

I was thinking that maybe the campeur could get ahead with geometry by being a bit more user friendly than Surly, but now that I actually look at the numbers I'd never, ever get the campeur because it's just way too racy. It's more aggressive than my road bike, which is pretty much almost identical with the Specialized Venge.
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Old 11-12-15, 07:45 AM   #173
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My LHT is a really weird riding bike. You have to be careful in corners since it feels like it just wants to go straight. Also the extremely long chainstay sometimes makes the rear 'drag' which is a really weird feeling. Hard to explain but I just don't like the ride unloaded. Loaded it's perfect.
I should add that Ive never ridden a LHT or any VO bikes, so my comments are pretty generic.

I can kinda understand your comments about your LHT to an extent, I imagine most of what you describe is just a slower steering bike. I have a friend who has a trek 520 and when I have ridden it, I find it Dump Truck like in how slow it steers--yes, he has heavy Marathon Plus tires on it, and a front rack that weighs a ton, so this really affects how it rides, but I dont like a bike that steers slowly to begin with, even before putting any sort of stuff up front.

re thick stiff tubing, my old mtn bike, an alu framed Rockhopper, has very thick and stiff alu tubes, much like the old Cannondale touring bikes. It is really stiff and handles a touring load very well--but at the same time, the bike steers really really quickly--its down to geometry and 26in wheels. Its a comp mtn bike and so was designed to steer quickly, and I love it. Throw on a handlebar bag and or some front bags and the steering slows down, but is still fine.

so my take is that I prefer a quick steering bike unloaded to begin with , as if the bike can take a load and handle well (basic frame stuff dealing with weight and not being noodly) then nice fast steering is only going to get slowed down by front end weight, so fast steering is not an issue.

I imagine the longer wheelbase is a factor with the LHT (part of the equation anyway).
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Old 11-12-15, 10:24 AM   #174
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The problem with the campeur is that it doesn't spec disc brakes which most tourers nowdays prefer.
I'm not sure of that, but would make for an interesting poll, such as, if you could place disc brakes on your current touring bike or if you were to purchase a new touring bike would you prefer disc brakes if available?
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Old 11-12-15, 10:34 AM   #175
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but now that I actually look at the numbers I'd never, ever get the campeur because it's just way too racy. It's more aggressive than my road bike,
Not sure what you consider "racy" but in a size 55 Campeur, both the seat tube and head tube angle of 72.5 is far from racy. Chain stays of 460mm vs today's typical road bike of less than 410 is not racy. And also, the seat tube length the same as the top tube is again more classic than aggressive.
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