Need new touring bike
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Need new touring bike
Hey I did a 10 day tour last year of 550 miles. I weigh 240 lbs and carried about 70 to 80 lbs on the bike of extra weight. I had a great time and want to ride a 1000 miles this summer down the West coast. My problems with my current bike a Giant Excursion 1991 model were that the hubs broke down and the real issue was a fairly constant wiggle. When I loader the panniers with 55 to 60 pounds and road the bike it was solid as a rock but when i put the extra 25 lbs on no amount of rearranging the weight would get rid of the wiggle completely. What I added was tent sleeping bag and pad in a dry bag and a kit with my CPAP machine which weighed about 23 lbs with the machine, inverter, battery, and cord.
So my question is what kind of bike can I buy/build/re purpose that will put up with my weight and the weight I carry and not wiggle ?
I have a budget of 1500 but if i could do it for less i would. I have seen a few " heavy duty touring bikes " in that price range but not my size. like a Koga miyata world touring bike or a co-motion americano.
But I am reading here about people making heavy duty touring bike out of old 80s mountain bikes like a schwinn sierra.
What do people here think about what my choices are.
JOHN
So my question is what kind of bike can I buy/build/re purpose that will put up with my weight and the weight I carry and not wiggle ?
I have a budget of 1500 but if i could do it for less i would. I have seen a few " heavy duty touring bikes " in that price range but not my size. like a Koga miyata world touring bike or a co-motion americano.
But I am reading here about people making heavy duty touring bike out of old 80s mountain bikes like a schwinn sierra.
What do people here think about what my choices are.
JOHN
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Hey I did a 10 day tour last year of 550 miles. I weigh 240 lbs and carried about 70 to 80 lbs on the bike of extra weight. I had a great time and want to ride a 1000 miles this summer down the West coast. My problems with my current bike a Giant Excursion 1991 model were that the hubs broke down and the real issue was a fairly constant wiggle. When I loader the panniers with 55 to 60 pounds and road the bike it was solid as a rock but when i put the extra 25 lbs on no amount of rearranging the weight would get rid of the wiggle completely. What I added was tent sleeping bag and pad in a dry bag and a kit with my CPAP machine which weighed about 23 lbs with the machine, inverter, battery, and cord.
So my question is what kind of bike can I buy/build/re purpose that will put up with my weight and the weight I carry and not wiggle ?
I have a budget of 1500 but if i could do it for less i would. I have seen a few " heavy duty touring bikes " in that price range but not my size. like a Koga miyata world touring bike or a co-motion americano.
But I am reading here about people making heavy duty touring bike out of old 80s mountain bikes like a schwinn sierra.
What do people here think about what my choices are.
JOHN
So my question is what kind of bike can I buy/build/re purpose that will put up with my weight and the weight I carry and not wiggle ?
I have a budget of 1500 but if i could do it for less i would. I have seen a few " heavy duty touring bikes " in that price range but not my size. like a Koga miyata world touring bike or a co-motion americano.
But I am reading here about people making heavy duty touring bike out of old 80s mountain bikes like a schwinn sierra.
What do people here think about what my choices are.
JOHN
The only workaround is to reduce the weight or get used to the wiggling. Or tow a 2 wheel Burley Nomad trailer which then is not influenced by your uneven pedal strokes.
Or best yet, train yourself to have Tour De France style smooth pedal strokes which is doable, but obviously the trailer or a lighter load would solve problem wise.
If you are able to load 55-60lbs without the wiggling effect, then your bike frame is stiff enough to dampen the minor frame oscillation generated by the side to side pannier movement which will always exist. Buying a more expensive bike will not solve the problem.
#3
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John, I like the answer from pacificcyclist.
For you: There are many experianced tourers here that can help with load placement and distribution to lessen the wiggle. Practice your spinning skills and have someone observe whether your hips are rocking while under torque (as if loaded). If they are you'll need to adjust your fitment.
For the bike: A touring wheelset is much cheaper than a new bike, even custom made. A short steering stem and/or narrow handlebars can contribute to the problem by amplifying your movements. You have a good bike worthy of some fine tuning.
Brad
For you: There are many experianced tourers here that can help with load placement and distribution to lessen the wiggle. Practice your spinning skills and have someone observe whether your hips are rocking while under torque (as if loaded). If they are you'll need to adjust your fitment.
For the bike: A touring wheelset is much cheaper than a new bike, even custom made. A short steering stem and/or narrow handlebars can contribute to the problem by amplifying your movements. You have a good bike worthy of some fine tuning.
Brad
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I have a Surly Long Haul Trucker and it will easily carry your 240lbs of weight along with a lot of touring gear. The Surly rack bought separately is rated for 80lbs. I have one since 09 and have had no problems with the bike. Probably a new one would be around $1350.00 for a 2012 model.
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Biggest bang for the touring buck Bruce Gordon BLT comes with Shimano SLX and Bruce Gordon Racks for $1750.
https://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
https://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
#7
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^^^
Yeah, it is possible that your bike was not proportionately loaded after you started adding the additional weight, meaning that maybe you were putting too much weight in the back of your bike vs the front. Also, it is possible that this bike frame wasn't designed for those kind of loads (315 lbs is a lot to ask.) All these things combined produced "shimmy". It's hard to tell! People have gone nuts trying to pinpoint the cause of shimmy on their bikes sometimes to no avail: by changing forks, trying different tires, adding more weight to the front of the bikes, etc.
At your budget, try both the Surly LHT or Surly Troll - both w/ 26"-wheels. They will resist torsional forces better for the kind of loads you run. Hopefully, the bike shop will let you load 'em up before buying. I believe the Troll might be a sturdier frame. If you want better wheels/components, you can buy the frameset and build it from there. As mentioned before, you need some good wheels (good rim + 36h hub + double/triple butted spokes.)
Yeah, it is possible that your bike was not proportionately loaded after you started adding the additional weight, meaning that maybe you were putting too much weight in the back of your bike vs the front. Also, it is possible that this bike frame wasn't designed for those kind of loads (315 lbs is a lot to ask.) All these things combined produced "shimmy". It's hard to tell! People have gone nuts trying to pinpoint the cause of shimmy on their bikes sometimes to no avail: by changing forks, trying different tires, adding more weight to the front of the bikes, etc.
At your budget, try both the Surly LHT or Surly Troll - both w/ 26"-wheels. They will resist torsional forces better for the kind of loads you run. Hopefully, the bike shop will let you load 'em up before buying. I believe the Troll might be a sturdier frame. If you want better wheels/components, you can buy the frameset and build it from there. As mentioned before, you need some good wheels (good rim + 36h hub + double/triple butted spokes.)
Last edited by Chris Pringle; 12-11-12 at 06:58 PM.
#8
Banned
I too felt a oscillation, of the load leveraging the top tube. my Frame Design solution was Custom,
with the help of The Cargo Bike Maker at Human Powered Machines,
twin side by side top tubes of .75" .049" wall 4130 tubing were also forming the rear triangle.
Having them work against each other that frame was solid as a rock uphills and descending.
Perhaps a Thinner wall tube would work, He had these Bent for his work bikes ,
only raised the slope to fit the 700c Wheel front Fork.
a oval-ized HorizontalTube say 30 by 60mm, up top, and using the same materials
oriented vertically, for the downtube .. seems another approach.
of course Going to Bruce Gordon, not for the Taiwan Sub contracted BLT,
but the frames He Himself makes, in California,
would get you a tube set selected for your size and weight,
maybe further Oversized from the 1.125 and 1.25 inch tubes
normally considered oversize,
to say 1.25: top and 1.5" down tube ,
would make the frame handle the load in the bags and on the saddle.
I jumped on a Used Buy of a Koga Miyata World Tour , Rohloff.
you will have to double your budget to get similar.
But the Signature Line process is menu based and so You can Pick and chose
from the various parts offered..
though in the US there Is only 1 dealer, in So Cal,
but a Fly and Ride to NL can be arrainged.
I think some shops just a short Bus ride from AMS Shiphol airport ,
makes a fly with your bags, and ride away from the shop , do able.
Getting the paperwork stamped at the departure gate,
should get the VAT refunded as an Export, mailing it back from Home..
with the help of The Cargo Bike Maker at Human Powered Machines,
twin side by side top tubes of .75" .049" wall 4130 tubing were also forming the rear triangle.
Having them work against each other that frame was solid as a rock uphills and descending.
Perhaps a Thinner wall tube would work, He had these Bent for his work bikes ,
only raised the slope to fit the 700c Wheel front Fork.
a oval-ized HorizontalTube say 30 by 60mm, up top, and using the same materials
oriented vertically, for the downtube .. seems another approach.
of course Going to Bruce Gordon, not for the Taiwan Sub contracted BLT,
but the frames He Himself makes, in California,
would get you a tube set selected for your size and weight,
maybe further Oversized from the 1.125 and 1.25 inch tubes
normally considered oversize,
to say 1.25: top and 1.5" down tube ,
would make the frame handle the load in the bags and on the saddle.
I jumped on a Used Buy of a Koga Miyata World Tour , Rohloff.
you will have to double your budget to get similar.
But the Signature Line process is menu based and so You can Pick and chose
from the various parts offered..
though in the US there Is only 1 dealer, in So Cal,
but a Fly and Ride to NL can be arrainged.
I think some shops just a short Bus ride from AMS Shiphol airport ,
makes a fly with your bags, and ride away from the shop , do able.
Getting the paperwork stamped at the departure gate,
should get the VAT refunded as an Export, mailing it back from Home..
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-11-12 at 07:18 PM.
#9
Senior Member
Since the bike seems to handle fine with less weight, I'd use the money to buy nice lightweight camping gear instead of a new bike. There have been plenty of recent threads about touring with lighter loads. 70-90lbs of gear is a lot, especially if you'll be doing fair weather traveling along the west coast. Maybe you could post what you carried on your last tour and some of us can offer suggestions how to reduce the cargo. I bet you could easily halve the weight with no loss in creature comforts.
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Well Thanks for the responses to my post. I am quite comfortable that my wiggle / oscillation was not my pedaling motion.
I have ruled out the use of a trailer for other reasons. I have actually talked directly to Bruce Gordon about a BLT and he will sell me one but tells me because of my weight and load it will likely wiggle. I have identified a KOGA MIYATA frame to but just not sure I want to build a bike cause it is a bare frame with a head bracket and a fork but nothing else. I also found a Gary Hale built touring frame that Gary says will hold my weight but it is even more bare in that it has been stripped of paint. I am really not interested in going that route although I am sure that the bike would not wiggle.
So what about the 80s model mountain bike rebuilds ? Any thoughts on that ?
JOHN
I have ruled out the use of a trailer for other reasons. I have actually talked directly to Bruce Gordon about a BLT and he will sell me one but tells me because of my weight and load it will likely wiggle. I have identified a KOGA MIYATA frame to but just not sure I want to build a bike cause it is a bare frame with a head bracket and a fork but nothing else. I also found a Gary Hale built touring frame that Gary says will hold my weight but it is even more bare in that it has been stripped of paint. I am really not interested in going that route although I am sure that the bike would not wiggle.
So what about the 80s model mountain bike rebuilds ? Any thoughts on that ?
JOHN
#11
Banned
So how is Gary these days?
mid 70's I bought a tubeset, and used a pedal powered Mitering rig He had put together.
mid 70's I bought a tubeset, and used a pedal powered Mitering rig He had put together.
#12
Banned
Old pre suspension fork MTBs could be good, tire clearance , and the older Cruiser inspired ones had slack angles
in the 68 ~ 70 degree range , and long chainstays .. climbing in the Dirt that was not so great, unlaiden,
[the sweet spot between wheelies and wheel slip ]
but putting weight on racks makes them solid and comfortable on those fat tires..
not a choice for impressing others with speed and high miles per day data, but a good rig.
Conservative tube wall specs result in a heavy frame, but that sounds like it may suit well.
in the 68 ~ 70 degree range , and long chainstays .. climbing in the Dirt that was not so great, unlaiden,
[the sweet spot between wheelies and wheel slip ]
but putting weight on racks makes them solid and comfortable on those fat tires..
not a choice for impressing others with speed and high miles per day data, but a good rig.
Conservative tube wall specs result in a heavy frame, but that sounds like it may suit well.
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Gary and I talked on the phone for a few minutes and we traded e mails sharing pictures and information. He seemed good and said he was only making fun bikes for himself.
JOHN
JOHN
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https://www.rei.com/product/837487/novara-buzz-bike-2013
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Sure sounds like shimmy, and though frame flex is one cause, it's not the only one. Loose bearings also sound possible, since you ended up destroying the hubs. I've heard uneven loading of front panniers can cause it, although I've never experienced it (even though I'm guilty sometimes).
Basically, I'd expect any of the bikes sold as "loaded touring" bikes to have a frame stiff enough to damp out shimmy, if that's the cause of your problem. Mass-produced touring bikes are now relatively plentiful under / about $1500, including the Trek 520, Surly LHT, REI Novara Randonee (which hauled my load, approximately equal to your load, across the US), Salsa Vaya, and Bruce Gordon's BLT, which I don't think will shimmy because of the load.
Make sure you've got a decent rack; Tubus brand or equivalent. Make double sure your front rack has a hoop over the wheel to stabilize it. You don't want anythig to flex and induce more shimmy.
Basically, I'd expect any of the bikes sold as "loaded touring" bikes to have a frame stiff enough to damp out shimmy, if that's the cause of your problem. Mass-produced touring bikes are now relatively plentiful under / about $1500, including the Trek 520, Surly LHT, REI Novara Randonee (which hauled my load, approximately equal to your load, across the US), Salsa Vaya, and Bruce Gordon's BLT, which I don't think will shimmy because of the load.
Make sure you've got a decent rack; Tubus brand or equivalent. Make double sure your front rack has a hoop over the wheel to stabilize it. You don't want anythig to flex and induce more shimmy.
#16
Senior Member
Only reason I can think of for using a 25yr old mtn bike and parts is because you have them laying around and can't spend $600 for an acceptable new bike.
https://www.rei.com/product/837487/novara-buzz-bike-2013
https://www.rei.com/product/837487/novara-buzz-bike-2013
I do agree about parts, though. I built myself an indestructible wheelset and used a modern 8 speed drivetrain with indexing barend shifters and modern cantilever brakes. I don't think I would use parts from the same era as the frame.
I know people swear by many of the modern touring offerings, but any time I ride by Schwinn I feel like I'm riding something indestructible, which is just not the feeling I get from any other bike.
#17
Senior Member
Since the bike seems to handle fine with less weight, I'd use the money to buy nice lightweight camping gear instead of a new bike. There have been plenty of recent threads about touring with lighter loads. 70-90lbs of gear is a lot, especially if you'll be doing fair weather traveling along the west coast. Maybe you could post what you carried on your last tour and some of us can offer suggestions how to reduce the cargo. I bet you could easily halve the weight with no loss in creature comforts.
I personally would rather stay home or do a car trip than carry 80 pounds of stuff on my bike. That said if you really must carry that much I'd suggest using panniers and a trailer.
#18
Senior Member
John, What size frame are you using? The larger the frame, the less rigid it'll be (thinking about Bruce Gordon's remark). Larger frames used to use a double top tube arrangement for rigidity, not seen in modern frames that I'm aware of. A modern expedition level tourer with over sized tubing might help as possibly would a trailer.
Brad
Brad
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Biggest bang for the touring buck Bruce Gordon BLT comes with Shimano SLX and Bruce Gordon Racks for $1750.
https://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
https://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
Check out the particulars on our blog at - https://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/
That includes our racks front and rear
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
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Well Thanks for the responses to my post. I am quite comfortable that my wiggle / oscillation was not my pedaling motion.
I have ruled out the use of a trailer for other reasons. I have actually talked directly to Bruce Gordon about a BLT and he will sell me one but tells me because of my weight and load it will likely wiggle. I have identified a KOGA MIYATA frame to but just not sure I want to build a bike cause it is a bare frame with a head bracket and a fork but nothing else. I also found a Gary Hale built touring frame that Gary says will hold my weight but it is even more bare in that it has been stripped of paint. I am really not interested in going that route although I am sure that the bike would not wiggle.
So what about the 80s model mountain bike rebuilds ? Any thoughts on that ?
JOHN
I have ruled out the use of a trailer for other reasons. I have actually talked directly to Bruce Gordon about a BLT and he will sell me one but tells me because of my weight and load it will likely wiggle. I have identified a KOGA MIYATA frame to but just not sure I want to build a bike cause it is a bare frame with a head bracket and a fork but nothing else. I also found a Gary Hale built touring frame that Gary says will hold my weight but it is even more bare in that it has been stripped of paint. I am really not interested in going that route although I am sure that the bike would not wiggle.
So what about the 80s model mountain bike rebuilds ? Any thoughts on that ?
JOHN
You'll be surprised how much an uneven pedal motion can cause the bike to oscillate, because what would cause it if you have so much weight. If you have an electric motor on the wheel, I can tell you that your bike won't wiggle. It's like a motorbike which can also carry the same or even more load. Why wouldn't a motorcycle wiggle when the bike does? Take a note on all the modern bikes with oversized BB and the bottom bracket area being stiffened immensely for what purpose? Looks? Or is there something sinister or useful in having them oversized and stiffened? So obviously pedal motions have something to do with flexing on older road and MTB frames.
Having said that, the only way to dampen this wiggle effect is to employ an oversized tubing especially on the "top tube" and the only bike I knew that was stiff enough to carry a huge massive load was the Cannondale T series. It's super stiff and so it is stable with a huge load with one downside. It's harsher riding compared to a comparable steel tubing bike which was the reason why Cannondale and the rest of the industry stopped making aluminum touring bikes in the first place. Funny thing was that aluminum bikes came to the scene to solve the problem steel bikes had, which was it wasn't stiff enough to handle a huge load like the infamous Miyata 1000GT which was flexy and oscillates like heck. When I switched to a Norco Alteres (a Cannondale T800 clone made for the Canadian market), the oscillation and wiggling effect went away. Since then, I had improved my spinning technique and today, my Masi Speciale CX rides like an arrow and is WAY more compliant compared to my former stiff Norco Alteres.
But I am just telling you that the solution to this problem isn't getting the most expensive bike, but rather understanding why it is causing this and find a work around to solve it.
Unless a bike is designed specifically for touring with an oversized top tube, then you are just going to be wasting money trying to find one that doesn't wiggle that much. Mind you, your load is lot heavier than mine. I started with just about your load and today had paired it down to 35lbs for luxury camping which means I don't suffer from any oscillation problem with most bikes. I even toured with my carbon bike that Lance used to ride to win his first TDF. The best money you can spend on is to invest in lighter camping and cooking gear. They will serve you better on the road with less wiggle plus makes life easier going up steep hills. A lighter load beats a heavier one for sure.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by pacificcyclist; 12-18-12 at 02:24 PM.
#21
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^^^
Yeah, it is possible that your bike was not proportionately loaded after you started adding the additional weight, meaning that maybe you were putting too much weight in the back of your bike vs the front. Also, it is possible that this bike frame wasn't designed for those kind of loads (315 lbs is a lot to ask.) All these things combined produced "shimmy". It's hard to tell! People have gone nuts trying to pinpoint the cause of shimmy on their bikes sometimes to no avail: by changing forks, trying different tires, adding more weight to the front of the bikes, etc.
At your budget, try both the Surly LHT or Surly Troll - both w/ 26"-wheels. They will resist torsional forces better for the kind of loads you run. Hopefully, the bike shop will let you load 'em up before buying. I believe the Troll might be a sturdier frame. If you want better wheels/components, you can buy the frameset and build it from there. As mentioned before, you need some good wheels (good rim + 36h hub + double/triple butted spokes.)
Yeah, it is possible that your bike was not proportionately loaded after you started adding the additional weight, meaning that maybe you were putting too much weight in the back of your bike vs the front. Also, it is possible that this bike frame wasn't designed for those kind of loads (315 lbs is a lot to ask.) All these things combined produced "shimmy". It's hard to tell! People have gone nuts trying to pinpoint the cause of shimmy on their bikes sometimes to no avail: by changing forks, trying different tires, adding more weight to the front of the bikes, etc.
At your budget, try both the Surly LHT or Surly Troll - both w/ 26"-wheels. They will resist torsional forces better for the kind of loads you run. Hopefully, the bike shop will let you load 'em up before buying. I believe the Troll might be a sturdier frame. If you want better wheels/components, you can buy the frameset and build it from there. As mentioned before, you need some good wheels (good rim + 36h hub + double/triple butted spokes.)
Light weight and stiff to resist torsional loads because these bikes were made way way stiffer to ensure the aluminum tubes don't prematurely fail. I think the Cannondale T series if can be bought used will work for the OP if he wants to carry a huge load, but the reason aluminum bikes gone by the do-do birds was because they can ride harsher than a comparable steel bike.
There is always a compromise between being super stiff and having vertical compliance. You can't have both being super stiff and super comfortable on a frame, so there's always some trade-offs.
Last edited by pacificcyclist; 12-18-12 at 02:38 PM.
#22
Senior Member
I love the enthusiasm and congratulate you on the tour success. I might suggest starting by carrying less. I've been doing week-long-plus rides for more than 40 years and never, ever carried 80 lbs of gear. This is what I look at for a weekend or month long tour. It amounts to 25 lbs spread between a saddlebag and two front bags.
As far as bikes go, there are plenty of good ones, I had a Surly LHT and when I could afford to I upgraded the frame with a Riv Hunqapillar I can't imagine changing that now but who knows, this touring obsession just keeps going, and going and....
Marc
As far as bikes go, there are plenty of good ones, I had a Surly LHT and when I could afford to I upgraded the frame with a Riv Hunqapillar I can't imagine changing that now but who knows, this touring obsession just keeps going, and going and....
Marc
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Sure sounds like shimmy, and though frame flex is one cause, it's not the only one. Loose bearings also sound possible, since you ended up destroying the hubs. I've heard uneven loading of front panniers can cause it, although I've never experienced it (even though I'm guilty sometimes).
Basically, I'd expect any of the bikes sold as "loaded touring" bikes to have a frame stiff enough to damp out shimmy, if that's the cause of your problem. Mass-produced touring bikes are now relatively plentiful under / about $1500, including the Trek 520, Surly LHT, REI Novara Randonee (which hauled my load, approximately equal to your load, across the US), Salsa Vaya, and Bruce Gordon's BLT, which I don't think will shimmy because of the load.
Make sure you've got a decent rack; Tubus brand or equivalent. Make double sure your front rack has a hoop over the wheel to stabilize it. You don't want anythig to flex and induce more shimmy.
Basically, I'd expect any of the bikes sold as "loaded touring" bikes to have a frame stiff enough to damp out shimmy, if that's the cause of your problem. Mass-produced touring bikes are now relatively plentiful under / about $1500, including the Trek 520, Surly LHT, REI Novara Randonee (which hauled my load, approximately equal to your load, across the US), Salsa Vaya, and Bruce Gordon's BLT, which I don't think will shimmy because of the load.
Make sure you've got a decent rack; Tubus brand or equivalent. Make double sure your front rack has a hoop over the wheel to stabilize it. You don't want anythig to flex and induce more shimmy.
The problem with modern touring bikes is the same. Ultimately, the design of the bike has to balance stiffness with riding comfort and riding comfort is what people want, hence the reason why steel bikes win over aluminum today. The topic is to stop the wiggle with a huge load and to do that, you need to stop all parts of the frame from flexing and as you can see, a super stiff bike is going to ride like crap, but a flexy comfortable bike is ultimately going to flex and wiggle with a heavier load.
The solution is to off-load some of this weight onto a 2 wheel trailer.
Last edited by pacificcyclist; 12-18-12 at 02:49 PM.
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Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com