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Old 03-02-13, 04:29 PM   #1
gdlerner
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German cyclist shot killed in Peru

Just find this bad news
http://stayingsafeabroad.blogspot.de...killed-on.html
http://latina-press.com/news/146405-...nbar-ermordet/
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Old 03-02-13, 07:02 PM   #2
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Very bad and discouraging news.
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Old 03-02-13, 07:41 PM   #3
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Very sad. The assumption is being made that it wasn't robbery because the bike and passport weren't taken. 'Valuables' mean different things to different people. Couldn't help but notice that in the photo the corpse had no shoes or socks. I'm guessing in some places and to some people food and clothing are considered 'valuables'. The other things may be too dangerous to try to sell.

At least our other two missing travellers got off a bit luckier.
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Old 03-09-13, 08:42 AM   #4
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Very sad. The assumption is being made that it wasn't robbery because the bike and passport weren't taken. 'Valuables' mean different things to different people. Couldn't help but notice that in the photo the corpse had no shoes or socks. I'm guessing in some places and to some people food and clothing are considered 'valuables'. The other things may be too dangerous to try to sell.

At least our other two missing travellers got off a bit luckier.
I'd give a gun man my shoes and socks. The matter of fact is there is many sad people in the world and South America is full of them. Every single country in south and Central America is highly dangerous and if you show any signs that you have more wealth than the many sad people who live there your chances of being shot increase from very high to almost inevitable. The amount of people that get murdered across South and Central America per year is just a joke and thieves have nothing to do with it. It's sad pathetic cold hearted killers that also steal and rob other people. Theses country's have a cycle that kids are born into. They join gangs, they sell drugs and they kill or be killed. The killing of foreigners is just the anger and pathetic behaviour of being a very sad individual.

South America is a part of the world we all know is beautiful but also very dangerous and if you travelling across it, especially outside of a vehicle your chances of returning home are very slim.
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Old 03-09-13, 08:53 AM   #5
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I'd give a gun man my shoes and socks. The matter of fact is there is many sad people in the world and South America is full of them. Every single country in south and Central America is highly dangerous and if you show any signs that you have more wealth than the many sad people who live there your chances of being shot increase from very high to almost inevitable. The amount of people that get murdered across South and Central America per year is just a joke and thieves have nothing to do with it. It's sad pathetic cold hearted killers that also steal and rob other people. Theses country's have a cycle that kids are born into. They join gangs, they sell drugs and they kill or be killed. The killing of foreigners is just the anger and pathetic behaviour of being a very sad individual.

South America is a part of the world we all know is beautiful but also very dangerous and if you travelling across it, especially outside of a vehicle your chances of returning home are very slim.
Hyperbolic nonsense. "Every single country in south and Central America is highly dangerous". "chances of being shot increase from very high to almost inevitable". "your chances of returning home are very slim". Your post was complete and utter crap.
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Old 03-09-13, 09:33 AM   #6
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Hyperbolic nonsense. "Every single country in south and Central America is highly dangerous". "chances of being shot increase from very high to almost inevitable". "your chances of returning home are very slim". Your post was complete and utter crap.
Well said!

It's a wonder we don't hear of such random violance against cyclists in the US, land of a gun in every hand, and where cyclists are high on the list of irritants to motorist.
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Old 03-09-13, 10:25 AM   #7
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This could have just as easily happened in the middle of Chicago, San Francisco, Milan, London, Berlin etc. But that said, places like South America are just filled with extremely poor desperate people. People that are otherwise decent people that are out of options to feed their families and themselves. I think you have to be there to know the extents you would go to feed your family.


There are some really incredible and beautiful places in the world to visit. But dangerous. I know a lot of forum members will say they tour in these areas without issue, but you look at the news and the CIA warnings and talk to people the actually live there, you will become aware of the danger.

I have to wonder what would drive someone to tour in these area when there are so many other places to tour that are relatively safe. I think Europe is an incredible place to tour. I figure I could years retirement just touring that region. The crime is fairly low, water is safe to drink, food save to eat and I am never far from decent medical care. Add the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and you have a life time of regions to explore.


While I am intrigued to tour in some of the more exotic regions of the world reality dictates to stick with areas I know I can tour with minimal concern for my own safety.
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Old 03-09-13, 10:45 AM   #8
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I'd give a gun man my shoes and socks. The matter of fact is there is many sad people in the world and South America is full of them. Every single country in south and Central America is highly dangerous and if you show any signs that you have more wealth than the many sad people who live there your chances of being shot increase from very high to almost inevitable. The amount of people that get murdered across South and Central America per year is just a joke and thieves have nothing to do with it. It's sad pathetic cold hearted killers that also steal and rob other people. Theses country's have a cycle that kids are born into. They join gangs, they sell drugs and they kill or be killed. The killing of foreigners is just the anger and pathetic behaviour of being a very sad individual.

South America is a part of the world we all know is beautiful but also very dangerous and if you travelling across it, especially outside of a vehicle your chances of returning home are very slim.
Spent a lot of my youth hanging out in industrial/rural areas of Mexico looking like the middle-class American white guy that I am. Never so much as had a finger pointed at me in some of the country's poorest areas. My guess is that you've never actually traveled to any of the regions you've described, otherwise you'd probably understand how slim the actual odds are of something like this happening.

That being said, this is incredibly sad.
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Old 03-09-13, 10:48 AM   #9
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This could have just as easily happened in the middle of Chicago, San Francisco, Milan, London, Berlin etc. But that said, places like South America are just filled with extremely poor desperate people. People that are otherwise decent people that are out of options to feed their families and themselves. I think you have to be there to know the extents you would go to feed your family.


There are some really incredible and beautiful places in the world to visit. But dangerous. I know a lot of forum members will say they tour in these areas without issue, but you look at the news and the CIA warnings and talk to people the actually live there, you will become aware of the danger.

I have to wonder what would drive someone to tour in these area when there are so many other places to tour that are relatively safe. I think Europe is an incredible place to tour. I figure I could years retirement just touring that region. The crime is fairly low, water is safe to drink, food save to eat and I am never far from decent medical care. Add the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and you have a life time of regions to explore.


While I am intrigued to tour in some of the more exotic regions of the world reality dictates to stick with areas I know I can tour with minimal concern for my own safety.


For a lot of people, this is worth the inherent risks. ^
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Old 03-09-13, 11:03 AM   #10
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This could have just as easily happened in the middle of Chicago, San Francisco, Milan, London, Berlin etc. But that said, places like South America are just filled with extremely poor desperate people. People that are otherwise decent people that are out of options to feed their families and themselves. I think you have to be there to know the extents you would go to feed your family.


There are some really incredible and beautiful places in the world to visit. But dangerous. I know a lot of forum members will say they tour in these areas without issue, but you look at the news and the CIA warnings and talk to people the actually live there, you will become aware of the danger.

I have to wonder what would drive someone to tour in these area when there are so many other places to tour that are relatively safe. I think Europe is an incredible place to tour. I figure I could years retirement just touring that region. The crime is fairly low, water is safe to drink, food save to eat and I am never far from decent medical care. Add the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and you have a life time of regions to explore.


While I am intrigued to tour in some of the more exotic regions of the world reality dictates to stick with areas I know I can tour with minimal concern for my own safety.
Just because many people in this world are poor, it doesn't automatically follow that they are all "desperate".

There's a lot more the world has to offer than just Europe. I suspect you're afraid of the unknown. Probably the biggest danger cyclists face in most of the world is motor vehicle traffic.
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Old 03-09-13, 11:26 AM   #11
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There are hundreds of cyclists traveling through Latin America safely every year. The vast majority is attracted by its beauty, the fact that you can go through a vast region only speaking one language, but it's super diverse culturally and scenic-wise. The main allure for a large percentage of cyclotourists traveling through the region is to traverse the entire continent. Notice that Latin America is a HUGE region encompassing many countries -- some are much safer than others. Having said this, this is the first death I've seen reported in years. The are a few countries that are best to spend little time or best to be avoided if you are a cyclotourist, not so much because of crazy drivers, but because of dangerous criminals who are not afraid to kill for a few bucks, camera, smart phone, laptop and so on. These are generally the "valuables" they want. In fact, most don't care about your bike, clothes, bags ,etc. Peru is, unfortunately, on this short list of dangerous countries. In fact, I am pretty certain it tops the list as the most dangerous for cyclotourists in Lat. Am. given how many cases they've had there in recent years. The goverment has really been trying to protect these cyclists. In fact, there is a section of the Pan-Am Hwy north of Lima where I believe ALL cyclotourists get escorted by a police car. I believe this type of violence against vulnerable cyclotourists has unfortunately spread to other parts of the country. Very sad indeed! But really, who can do a trip of such magnitude and deliberately skip Machu Picchu, Cuzco and other super interesting places from the Incan empire in Peru? In spite of the many warnings, most just take the risk.

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Old 03-09-13, 12:04 PM   #12
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Just because many people in this world are poor, it doesn't automatically follow that they are all "desperate".

There's a lot more the world has to offer than just Europe. I suspect you're afraid of the unknown. Probably the biggest danger cyclists face in most of the world is motor vehicle traffic.

That is correct. Poverty does not necessarily make people desperate. I have meet people in other countries that were poor beyond my imagination and they were some of the most generous people that I have ever met. But there are people in regions are that are literally starving to death along with their families. There is no telling what people will do to feed themselves. A lone tourist with a bag of food is an awful temptation as a target.


These are from comments of people that I know that were born in the region or Americans now living there. I had great concern for a fellow tourer that had an ultimate gol to ride to Argentina. I was helping to get through the States, that spoke little English and even less Spanish. I made inquiry to my friends and the unanimous opinion was to not come to South America.

And no I am not afraid of the unknown. I'm just old enough to appreciate risk vs reward.
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Old 03-09-13, 12:36 PM   #13
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Hundreds of people are shot every day in the USA, ~30,000 die per year from GSW, ~100,000 shot per year.

>30,000 people die each year in MV accidents in USA.

>600,000 die from from heart disease in USA each year = 1,640 per day.
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Old 03-09-13, 12:38 PM   #14
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That is correct. Poverty does not necessarily make people desperate. I have meet people in other countries that were poor beyond my imagination and they were some of the most generous people that I have ever met. But there are people in regions are that are literally starving to death along with their families. There is no telling what people will do to feed themselves. A lone tourist with a bag of food is an awful temptation as a target.


These are from comments of people that I know that were born in the region or Americans now living there. I had great concern for a fellow tourer that had an ultimate gol to ride to Argentina. I was helping to get through the States, that spoke little English and even less Spanish. I made inquiry to my friends and the unanimous opinion was to not come to South America.

And no I am not afraid of the unknown. I'm just old enough to appreciate risk vs reward.
It's ridiculous to generalize about an entire continent. Some parts of South America are unsafe. Many parts are quite safe. You haven't been there, and I would suggest that your method for evaluating risk could use some tweaking.
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Old 03-09-13, 12:50 PM   #15
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It's ridiculous to generalize about an entire continent. Some parts of South America are unsafe. Many parts are quite safe. You haven't been there, and I would suggest that your method for evaluating risk could use some tweaking.
Who is generalizing? Passing from the US to the tip of Argentina requires you to pass through all types of regions from reasonably safe to extremely dangerous. Not knowing the language doesn't help in your safety anywhere.

And I don't need to go to inner city Detroit to know that that it is dangerous.

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Old 03-09-13, 03:37 PM   #16
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Who is generalizing?
I believe that you generalized with your comments about “places like South America” and “these areas”.

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This could have just as easily happened in the middle of Chicago, San Francisco, Milan, London, Berlin etc. But that said, places like South America are just filled with extremely poor desperate people. People that are otherwise decent people that are out of options to feed their families and themselves. I think you have to be there to know the extents you would go to feed your family.

There are some really incredible and beautiful places in the world to visit. But dangerous. I know a lot of forum members will say they tour in these areas without issue, but you look at the news and the CIA warnings and talk to people the actually live there, you will become aware of the danger.
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Old 03-09-13, 06:16 PM   #17
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Almost without fail the people who scream the loudest about the dangers of another country are the ones who have never been there. This is very common. Friends of mine told me I was going to end up being chased through jungles by drug cartels with assault weapons prior to my tour through Mexico and Central America. These were people who have never set foot outside the U.S., of course. They get all their info about other countries via the sensationalistic U.S. news media. Turned out I had nothing but positive experiences with everyone I encountered, including many extremely poor people. This wasn't a surprise to me. I've been to Mexico, Central and South America many times over the past 24 years or so.

The biggest threats down there are probably motor vehicle traffic and petty theft. Yet I've never been involved in an accident there. Someone stole a cd player and a pair of sandals from me once, however. That was in Mexico. Now I know that the entire country consists of nothing but thieves.

What's sad is when people decide an entire continent is too dangerous to visit because a few people ran into trouble there. It makes me wonder how these people can actually venture outside of their homes knowing that people have died being struck by lightning, which is probably much more likely to happen than getting murdered on a trip to Latin America.
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Old 03-09-13, 06:44 PM   #18
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... It makes me wonder how these people can actually venture outside of their homes knowing that people have died being struck by lightning, which is probably much more likely to happen than getting murdered on a trip to Latin America.
Our good friend Ruby almost got hit by a meteorite during a meteor shower,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99bhgvg5x8



Parts 1 and 2 might also be of interest.

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Old 03-09-13, 06:49 PM   #19
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All you need to do is read the CIA Fact Book. You don't need to visit a country to determine the danger. Just because some people go and have no issues is meaningless. There are dangerous parts of the world. You need to be fully aware of the risks traveling anywhere. And that does not mean, "Some guys on the Bike Forum went and they didn't have a problem". That is plain lunacy.

If you educate yourself by using tools like the CIA Fact Book and other reputable sources, fully understand the risks and still want to visit then that is pretty much your right to do so.

But for me there are plenty of places in the world that are incredibly beautiful and don't show up in any kind of government warning, I will never have the time or money to visit them all. Why would I then want to go someplace where I could be butting myself in danger? It just doesn't make any sense.
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Old 03-09-13, 07:19 PM   #20
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I agree that anecdotal evidence and individual cases are not the way to form an accurate picture of the risk.

I trust the CIA, though (?).

Seriously, their data is almost certainly more reliable, but perhaps not totally unimpeachable. There are other government agencies and organizations that might be able to contribute additional information of value. I suspect that the British do a decent job with this sort of thing.

Nothing against the CIA here....
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Old 03-09-13, 08:17 PM   #21
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Now I know that the entire country consists of nothing but thieves.

The US is nothing but black people with guns, rednecks, and people running around at night dressed as bats.
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Old 03-09-13, 09:08 PM   #22
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I agree that anecdotal evidence and individual cases are not the way to form an accurate picture of the risk.

I trust the CIA, though (?).

Seriously, their data is almost certainly more reliable, but perhaps not totally unimpeachable. There are other government agencies and organizations that might be able to contribute additional information of value. I suspect that the British do a decent job with this sort of thing.

Nothing against the CIA here....
I mentioned "other" sources. If venturing into a questionable part of the world, it is probably best to look at multiple sources of information on a regions safety.
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Old 03-09-13, 09:25 PM   #23
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There seem to be two distinct camps here - one that feels some places are too dangerous to visit and another that feels those same places are perfectly safe. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I've lived problem free in Montreal for about 40 years. Thing is - there's organized crime in this city, areas of the city I avoid altogether, and places I frequent that are completely without risk. That's something we all do and take for granted. Tourists, on the other hand, often arrive in a country and can set out to blindly explore without that kind of information - which can easily get you in trouble in any country, and much more so in South America.

That's not my opinion as a tourist - I spent some time in Haiti with some people from UNESCO, was in Peru for a few months sorting out some legal issues for a couple people, and spent quite a few years in Colombia, mostly in and around Cali and Papayan. Everything I mentioned about Montreal applied doubly there, and that's not just my opinion - that's the wife's opinion too and she was born there.

So lets not discourage travel - lets just live smarter. Identify the risks and dangers, use proper risk management techniques to treat them as challenges - and deal with them effectively. Mountain climbing, back country skiing and driving a car all come with risks too - the idea is to NOT tackle them without adequate training and preparation. As has been mentioned, most people in every country are friendly, respectable people. But before you go berry picking - you need to learn how to watch out for things like poison ivy and ground hornets.
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Old 03-09-13, 10:56 PM   #24
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to the mean person that generalizes about Latin America I would say that I believe every person has an opinion based on their world view and yours I guess makes you a racist; you are also probably the town square that never travelled and don't know everywhere in every location the sky is blue and people are beautiful. I am sad for the loss of a life no matter nationality; in fact I would say that a very Latino characteristic is that for us love humanity is not limited to the humanity that were born inside the international limits of our motherland.
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Old 03-10-13, 01:11 AM   #25
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I think Europe is an incredible place to tour. I figure I could years retirement just touring that region. The crime is fairly low, water is safe to drink, food save to eat and I am never far from decent medical care. Add the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and you have a life time of regions to explore.
While I am intrigued to tour in some of the more exotic regions of the world reality dictates to stick with areas I know I can tour with minimal concern for my own safety.
Sad to hear about the German tourist, very bad news indeed.


I would have to agree with some of what spinnaker writes.
There are many beautiful places to visit that have proper roads, cycling paths, camping sites and general cycle touring infrastructure to make for a great tour. And I probalby not have time to visit them all.

If others are good with visiting these (more exotic) places, hey, more power to them and I hope they post on crazyguy.
If and when I first see all of Europe than I'll check out North America, than Australia than New Zealand and if I still have time I can go to those other places.

Some like to cycle in the middle of nowhere, others not, it doesn't mean one's beter than the other. I believe the important thing is the tour wherever it might be.

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