mm718

I am interested in trying a down quilt. I am a side sleeper who needs to be able to move around a lot and I'm a bit claustrophobic. I don't like the feeling of being restrained in a sleeping bag and could never sleep in a mummy bag. The weight savings of a quilt is also attractive to me.

A few questions:

1. What do you like most about down quilts?

2. What are the down sides?

3. Do you sleep with the edges of the quilt tucked under you or do you use some sort of fastening system? If the former is there much of a learning curve or does this come pretty naturally in a couple of nights (e.g. turning over and keeping the quilt tucked).

4. How has a down quilt worked for you in cold weather?

5. Are drafts an issue or is simply tucking the quilt underneath you sufficient to retain heat?

Thanks!

License2Ill

My Jacks R Better Mt Rogers quilt is awesome. I thought I would use it wrapped around the pad, but I end up just closing it up along the legs depending on temps and wrap it around my torso at some point. The key is the size that allows for a good seal around me. There is no down side. None. Understanding the reason I got the one that I got is key though, it was all about sizing. I tend to sleep on my stomach and have wide shoulders and thick chest, so other options weren't working well. I've slept in it in temps down to 30F, mine is about a 20-25F spec. No draft issues, it seals great. It's basically just he shape of a rectangular barrel bag, the footbox is a large which is nice, but at the coldest temps can be a lot of air space. My feet tend to stay warm though and the lack of restriction is great. All in all I couldn't ask for better with anything else at the low weight because it's the biggest option I could get for a weight that is right in with the lightest of bag options with smaller dimensions simply because the opening in on the side. It's incredibly versatile. It's long so I can actually put my head inside, wrapping it around my head like a hood instead of just tightening around the shoulders to keep a warm head, and still be completely sealed-up. I've used Big Agnes and Montbell SS bags, which were good, especially the Montbell, but the quilt is the best of all for versatile space.

mm718

The key is the size that allows for a good seal around me.

Can you tell me more about this. Do you mean wide enough to tuck? I am 6',2" thin-ish but broad shoulders. My choices for width the quilt I am considering are 54" and 58"? My inclination is to bigger to have more to tuck. Especially if tucking didn't work for me and I wanted to use fasteners (remember I am a bit claustrophobic). I also a side sleeper.... What do you think?

License2Ill

Yeah, that it is big enough to fit, but also to seal around the bottom of me against the pad while open at the top. Basically mine is 60" wide, which makes it a lot like a 60" girth bag, but it can be open underneath and tucked to seal well against the pad under my body without being too drafty while being open against the pad over maybe 18" of the width of the pad under me. I also use a wide pad, an Exped Syn Mat 7 DLX. The DLX is 26" wide, rather than the standard 20". Part of the goodness of it though is that it can be easily adjusted in that way. I can leave it more open, or more tightly tucked up under me. I can fully close it as high as I want dependin on conditions, and tighten the draw strings at the corners of the top to create more of a tuck around the neck and shoulders or even up over my head.

You could wrap it around a pad. Mine has loops at the edges above the footbox to string it across or around a pad a that point. You could tuck it under the pad all the way up, but I find that more tedious than just closing it up like a standard bag to a point up my torso. Since mine is the wide 60" girth, it makes for what amounts to a standard sized rectangular bag all the way through to the point at which it is open underneath. Having a full 60" girth all the way up through the bag means a lot of room and a lot of air space to warm. It works for me, but someone that is thinner may find it's not as warm because of all that space through the foot and hip, and even up through the torso. But other options are more narrow, lighter weight because of it, and can be used completely open underneath you against the pad for nearly the whole of the length of the quilt.

If you have a 48" wide model like the Hudson River, you can keep it open over about 12" underneath you and get the same girth as you would with a standard 60" bag, but you'd still need to button it up at the bottom, creating a closed foot box, and mummy-like lower body portion that would be 24" through the whatever length of the lower portion of the bag you want. If, instead, you want to tuck the edges under a 20" pad over the whole length of the pad, it's not going to give you much room to move under it, and it's likely to lose the sea and be harder to deal with getting it sealed when getting in, and especially around the neck and shoulders. That just didn't work for me at all because it leaves too big of an open area around the neck and shoulders.

arctos

Although I did not know that I wanted a quilt, It turned out that I had been trying to use sleeping bags as quilts for many years. When I saw a review of a 20F Nunatak Arc Alpinist I recognized what I had been doing. I ordered one and used it on the Divide Ride. I had room to move around yet had wider temperature options that with my previous sleeping bags. Less weight and packed volume were nice benefits as well. And room for layering insulation garments to extend the range as needed. On a good pad it was like sleeping at home.

I have found that I rarely use the retention straps except for very cold temperatures. The learning cuve for tucking in the edges was very short. An appropriate width for your size is important to make the most of the quilts advantages. Baffle spacing is important is controlling down shift during the night. My original Arc Alpinist has 10 inches spacing. Today most quilt makers use 5 inch spacing. Nunatak added additional down when I pointed out the problem as they had shifted to smaller spacing.

If I were ordering a quilt today I would order the Nunatak Arc Specialist 32F quilt. It is as wide as my original quilt for tucking and layering and even lighter. Experience has shown me that I do not need the 20F rating for most of my trips.

fuzz2050

I can't post from personal experience, since I'm still just saving up money for one, but I've heard nothing but great things about Enlightened Equipment's quilts. It's hard to say no to a price like that, and the ability to customize to your hearts desire.

License2Ill

Doesn't look too bad for the price, but that mention of overfill as increasing the loft doesn't appear correct to me. The loft should be controlled by the baffle height, meaning the fill should loft to the height of the baffle. Overfill will only increase the density, and only make a difference in longevity of the fill. As mentioned by arctos, the baffle spacing or width can make a difference in the migration of the down, which relates to how much down is in a specific baffle as well. These Enlightened bags have really wide baffles. The JRB's run about 7", the Nunataks at 5". I don't have any issue with the JRB, but I wouldn't want it any bigger because the down would have more of a tendency to fall to the sides overnight. With that said, I don't know if the pics are showing the split at the edges of the quilt or if there is a boxed baffle edge up the middle of it. A baffle edge line up the middle would be less than ideal from my perspective as well, because it's a point for heat to escape right where you want the most loft. I gotta assume they just need more and better pics to be more clear there. Even though they aren't EN-rated, the fill weights and overall weight looks accurate for the 20F bag.

I like a the versatiility of a rectangular quilt, but the narrowed and sewn together foot boxes make for less weight. It doesn't look like there is any closure mechanism above the foot box on Enlightened. My JRB uses velcro(omni tape) all the way up, and the footbox is made by tightened drawstrings and the velcro to any length you want up the bag which I find convenient, if only an ounce or heavier that way.

mm718

Thanks everyone for all of the great input. You've answered all of my questions and much more. Lots of great info here... I ordered a 30 degree RevelationX quilt from Enlightened Equipment. It looks like the baffle spacing has been changed in the 2013 models. From EE's website... "Space between baffles has been dramatically reduced for 2013 which greatly increases down control and reduces shifting."

arctos

A year ago I ordered a 20F Protege X child's quilt from Enlightened Equipment for a two year old I know. The end product was very well made and designed to grow with her to age six or seven. The owner of the quilt seems quite happy camping in her quilt.

fuzz2050

Overfill is really insurance that you get the required loft, even under less than ideal conditions. Down isn't a gas, and doesn't expand to fill the available space, so if it's a little damp and your down doesn't loft to it's fullest, you can still get your 2 inches of loft and temperature rating.

License2Ill

Makes sense. I've never really understood the idea as anything but a gimmick, but I guess it will provide some loft insurance. I don't plan on getting my bag wet enough to lose any serious loft though.

fuzz2050

Don't think about it in terms of dunking your bag in the river, rather think about a week long trip in very cold weather. As you sweat at night, the water vapor condenses on down, limiting loft. If it's warm enough during the day, and you can dry it out, then that works, but it might be too humid, or too cold.

BohicaX

The new 2013 Enlightened products now have 5" baffles they did have 8" baffles.

License2Ill

Yeah, I saw that after reading the previous post. I didn't look at the homepage, just the product pages that have few pics of old product and descriptions.

mm718

Another question.... Since the quilt may not be under you in some cases do any of you use a fitted sheet or something else to lay on?

License2Ill

I always sleep in a baselayer, so no. What pad are you using?

mm718

Neoair Trekker. Most of my touring so far has been in warm weather so I typically sleep in just boxers. Just thinking about comfort and maybe it's not such good idea to get oils and salt on the mat.

License2Ill

Camping is dirty by nature, but some mats won't feel too good on bar skin either. The Trekker might be better against the skin than the original with the shiny outer, I suppose. I'm guessing moisture management in general would still be better with a light wicking shirt in between though.

Something to mention about the pad though, the r-value of the Trekker is 2.0. You may not get quite the temp performance out of your quilt with a pad r-value under 5.0. With the inception of the EN standard that's been made more clear for accurate temp ratings for bags. With quilts it can be more subjective since there isn't a sealed zip or a hood and neck collar anyway, but if you find yourself not getting the performance you had hoped for or in going into temps down to the general suggested rating of the quilt, a more insulated pad will make a difference.

mm718

Regarding the r-value. This is mostly for summer use. There may some times when I'll be in cooler temps at elevation but it looks like people are keeping warm down to 30-35 degrees on the Trekker. Rather than upgrade to a heavier higher r-value pad or get a less durable lightweight pad I might add a torso length piece of thinlight ccf that would significantly increase the r-value.

fuzz2050

A pad with an R-value of 5.0 should be very warm, more than sufficient for even serious winter camping. 2.0 should be more than sufficient for at least 2.5 season camping.

License2Ill

That's been standard wisdom, but not really based on reality according to the recent revelation of measured testing with the EN standard. The biggest point of it though is that for a bag that is labeled as a 20F, may only perform to a 25F clo-value level with a 5.0r pad underneath it, and using a pad with half the r-value only exacerbates that condition a few more degrees of perceived comfort.

Bag ratings have been overstated on the whole for a long time, and the compromise in the testing has been to use a pad that matches the clo-value of a 20F bag(clo=1.15r). So when a bag is labeled with an EN-rating of 30F, that was done using a pad that helped make the bag perform. What you will often find is that those bags were often sold as 20F bags prior to the standard being used. So when you combine that over-rated label with the lighter pad you end-up with an even more exaggerated rating.

A 5.0r pad helps any bag rated above 20F, and is a little light in clo-value for temps below 20F. A 20F bag will have a clo-value of about 6.25, iirc, a 30F bag will be around 4.0, and a 40F bag about 3.0clo. This means a pad to maintain the total clo of the system should match those clo-values in its r-value. This was the excuse of Mountain Hardware for not getting an EN-rating on their 0F and below labeled bags, eventhough those bags were severely under spec'd a couple years ago when the EN-rating was catching on in the industry.

It makes sense then to use a pad of about 3.5r with a 30F bag, but only if that bag is accurately spec'd itself with a clo-value of 4.0. The only way we have of measuring the clo-value is the EN-rating which then goes back to getting that measurement using a 5.0r pad. We can make some assumptions based on specs, but that gets difficult with sizing differences and features that quilts often lack like collars and hoods. The whole point of that test though is really just offering a consistent method for more accurate comparison. When we measure specs and EN Lower Limit numbers, you have to keep that in mind, and with the lack of weight and size in quilts, it's harder to get an accurate measure in just looking at the fill weight, regardless of fill power.