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  1. #1
    Fredly
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    keep wheelset ot build another

    I have a wheel set right now that consists of a velocity chukker laced to an xt hub in the rear and a Shimano dynohub (3N80 I think) in the front. I'm building a new touring bike and am considering building a new set of wheels. Something like a lx hub in the rear (I've read Shimano screwed the reliability of the xt hubs in recent years) and a Shimano Shimano dynohub on the front laced to something like a mavic a719 or rigida/ryde grizzly.

    Wondered what y'all would do.
    Last edited by iconicflux; 01-01-14 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    Personally I think the whole XT hub demise has been greatly exaggerated. If yours is in fine order, then give it a little maintenance and keep on using it. Now if you want something shiny and new and have the cash, by all means, pump it back into the economy and your choices are sound.

  3. #3
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    I'd build the bike using the wheels you have. Otherwise the question is too open with undefined parameters.

  4. #4
    Fredly
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    Thanks for the answers.. let me define the parameters a bit more.

    I'm about 275 lbs and while I like the chukkers there are a few things about them that I don't like. I've always been a bit suspect of their quality because of the way the rims are joined (they're *not* flat at the joints) and when I built them I didn't know as much about wheel building. They have wheelsmith db14's on them and they're certainly strong but they're also very heavy and the depth profile really is noticeable in a strong wind (but only strong wind).

    So basically I'm considering what my options are to build a new set of wheels that are:
    Stronger (Hopefully at least single eyeletted and double is preferred. I'd go with 40 or 42 hole if I could find the right parts for them.)
    Easy to build (This is part of why I want the eyelets. Replacing spokes on the side of the road without having to preload tension MANY times because of spoke twist would be nice.)
    Brass nipples - I'm not sure what kind of nipples my current wheel has but they don't look like brass to me.
    Possibly a different dynohub (at least a shimano 3n72, a SON 28 if I can afford it, or possibly a PV8 although I don't know how the PV8 will stand up to much use,rain,etc.)
    Easy to service - I'd prefer something that's easy to service.

  5. #5
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Most brass nipples are chromed so they look silverish. Aluminum nipples tend to look a bit duller than the chromed brass.

    If you want an LX rear hub, they make LX labelled dynohubs as well so they can match; might have to source it from a European site though, I think it's part of shimano's LX trekking group that isn't popular or sold in North America from what I can tell. There's a set of wheels called the handspun pavement series 5 that comes with a mavic a319 rim and an LX dynamo on the front but it's only 32 hole, which might be a problem if you carry heavy front loads. The mavic a319 isn't a bad rim, double eyelets and all that jazz... here's the rear wheel to match I think it's cheaper than buying all the parts at retail prices and you can get a wheel hand tensioned pretty cheaply.

    I myself had good luck so far with sun cr-18 rims, the pinned rim joints were all smooth after buildup. I dunno if they come double eyeleted or not, they do usually have single eyelets. T they are a great value IMHO and since rims are a kind of consumable I'm not really on board with the $100+ rims that are becoming a thing these days... a crazy strong rim isn't gonna make up for a mediocre wheelbuild but a good wheelbuild will make a basic rim into part of a strong wheel... probably tensioned spokes do all the heavy lifting. I've never had to replace a spoke on the side of road, so I'm lucky like that I guess... never had any crashes to damage a wheel is part of that too.

    Another thing if you are really considering 40 hole rims, the mavic a719 does come in a 40 hole version... and you could use a shimano tandem hub in the rear.

  6. #6
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    the higher end MTB hubs got an aluminum axle. . steel is fine for most people..

    the tandem hub ships as a 145, but some axle parts swaps can bring it back down to 135.


    Me?I built my own I favored 40 front 48 rear , 1st set
    the front hub was specialized sealed bearing I think Suzue put the label on
    rear was a stainless tube alloy flange original Phil Wood.
    laced to Mavic Mod 4 rims tandem stuff 4x ft, 5x rear..

    second set Bullseye hubs , Sun Rhyno [not light ] 3x 4x that time..
    I was fine with freewheels 6 & 7 speed wide 13-34t range.
    friction bar ends .. still work 30 years later.
    Last edited by fietsbob; 01-07-14 at 06:55 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconicflux View Post
    Thanks for the answers.. let me define the parameters a bit more.

    I'm about 275 lbs and while I like the chukkers there are a few things about them that I don't like. I've always been a bit suspect of their quality because of the way the rims are joined (they're *not* flat at the joints) and when I built them I didn't know as much about wheel building. They have wheelsmith db14's on them and they're certainly strong but they're also very heavy and the depth profile really is noticeable in a strong wind (but only strong wind).

    So basically I'm considering what my options are to build a new set of wheels that are:
    Stronger (Hopefully at least single eyeletted and double is preferred. I'd go with 40 or 42 hole if I could find the right parts for them.)
    Easy to build (This is part of why I want the eyelets. Replacing spokes on the side of the road without having to preload tension MANY times because of spoke twist would be nice.)
    Brass nipples - I'm not sure what kind of nipples my current wheel has but they don't look like brass to me.
    Possibly a different dynohub (at least a shimano 3n72, a SON 28 if I can afford it, or possibly a PV8 although I don't know how the PV8 will stand up to much use,rain,etc.)
    Easy to service - I'd prefer something that's easy to service.
    A bumpy seam doesn't mean rim integrity is suspect but it is irritating. Sounds like you just want to build another wheel as anything with 40 spokes and "stronger" will be heavy.

    High budget: 40 hole Mavic 719 and pricey hub of your choice.
    Med budget: 40 hole Sun CR18 and Velocity hub
    low budget: Handspun prebuilt Pavement series wheel, Mavic 319 36 straight 14g spokes on LX hub then get the pretty Son28 dyno w any kind of rim.

  8. #8
    Fredly
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    Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of handspun. I had to learn how to build wheels because I got a wheel from them that was so bad I broke 3 spokes in the first 200 miles.

  9. #9
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconicflux View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of handspun. I had to learn how to build wheels because I got a wheel from them that was so bad I broke 3 spokes in the first 200 miles.
    It's sometimes cheaper to just buy the wheel assembled and re-tension the wheel by hand. Saves the time of lacing the wheel tooo. I'd also get any machine wheel checked over by a competent mechanic/wheelbuilder before riding it.

  10. #10
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    - Rim grinding is a bugaboo topic. They weld and anodize them, both of which weaken the rims, then they have to grind them to get the surface back to where it needs to be, raw. If you can build the rim, then you don't need to do anything other than butt the surfaces of the joint. I would not worry about that.

    - DB 14s are what you want, did you mean the rims are strong in that sentence, or are you suggesting you might go lighter in the spokes, which would be bad. For the rear wheel you can play with radial/cross three, or 15/14,

    - I think the higher spoke count is a good idea if you are going the strength route. The basics are components that play well together, a proven recipe, not just 3 great products in the wheel, but ones that are known to work together; built properly. After that the next best thing you can do it spoke count. Heavier rims are not as effective as more spokes. They could be if all the extra weight was right where you wanted it. But it can be in negative or irrelevant areas, like width or depth.

    - The velo aeroheat is the go to touring rim, in that brand, and it should be fine at your weight. Anything over 32 will work in 26" But 36 or 40 would be better, and I think a good choice at your weight (been there). Modern rims are normally built without the double eyelet thing. There are a bunch of reasons for that, mainly the total change in rim sections.

    - If I was going to higher spoke count, I would spring for the Phil freewheel hubs. Still arguably the best touring hub ever built. The shimano tandem hub looks like it belongs on a bus. The freewheel hubs are great, but they stop making sense if you want one of the new, expensive, weak freehubs with a 9 or up cassette. Of course you can go for a phil freehub, but the cost is getting way up there, as is the weight. For a freehub the White seems a little less spendy and heavy.

    - By the way, generally proven wheel components are better than new ones. Hubs, and spokes will outlast several bikes, certainly rims. If you have the right rims, all you would need to do if they were worn, would be to relace them to a new rims, keeping the spokes and rim holes in their original place and geometry. However, if you have a dodgy axle, or model of hub, where a broken part is a risk, then you basically have to start anew. Though you could save the wheel for commuting.
    Last edited by MassiveD; 01-05-14 at 12:36 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
    - Modern rims are normally built without the double eyelet thing. There are a bunch of reasons for that, mainly the total change in rim sections.
    Somebody forgot to mention that to Mavic, pathetic company that they are, their A719 and A319 rims are double eyeletted but then those are pretty crappy rims to tour on anyway.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by robow View Post
    Somebody forgot to mention that to Mavic, pathetic company that they are, their A719 and A319 rims are double eyeletted but then those are pretty crappy rims to tour on anyway.
    Why is the A719 such a crap rim to tour with? From what I can see there are a lot of people out there using them for this exact purpose. I've seen some recent reports of cracked rims but I guess that can happen for a number of reasons.

    I'm asking because I'm putting together a bike for touring and looking at getting a wheel built based on the 719. I'm 70kg and planning some light touring with just rear panniers.

  13. #13
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    garyinoz, sorry you couldn't read the inflection in my voice, my statement was totally tongue in cheek and I was just pointing out the fallacy of the statement made in the previous post. The Mavic A719 or the less expensive Mavic A319 rims are two of the very best you can buy. Mavic is one of the leading rim and wheel manufacturers in the world and your choice of A719's is an excellent one.

  14. #14
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    @robow, thanks for the clarification I'll pay more attention in future!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by robow View Post
    Somebody forgot to mention that to Mavic, pathetic company that they are, their A719 and A319 rims are double eyeletted but then those are pretty crappy rims to tour on anyway.
    Sorry you couldn't read the word "normally" in my post. I will try not to bury it so far in the text next time.

    It is still the case that double eyelets are moreso a product of a time when rims where flexible and had to be tensioned to the point of near spoke pull-through, taco, or collapse, to reach their full strength. In a modern small spoke count world, they build deep girders, and lace the spokes to lowish factory specs without the same need to armor the eyelet holes. It is a different paradigm.

    I had this conversation with Jobst Brandt at one point when I asked him how I was to follow his advice on finding the correct spoke tension when many modern rims are not wisely deformed in the process. He just kinda internet shrugged and said build to spec.

    I think velocity has as good or better a rep these days as the rims you list, and they don't use double eyelets. In the past using a rim without double eyelets would have been to court disaster. But you just can't easily find sections like the MA2 any more, so why pretend it is still 1990.

  16. #16
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    MassD, taken as a whole your remark denigrated the use of double eyelets as though there was something wrong with their use or they were obsolete. More professional cyclists put more training miles on Mavic Open Pro rims than any other and they are double eyeletted as well. Velocity Dyads, Chuks and others are excellent rims as well but one shouldn't be discouraged from using double eyelets, a time proven design from one of if not the finest rim and wheel manufacturers in the world.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconicflux View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of handspun. I had to learn how to build wheels because I got a wheel from them that was so bad I broke 3 spokes in the first 200 miles.
    What wheels, what kind of load?

  18. #18
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Now that I'm in a Touring pass thru town ,
    I can see the value of just getting a serviceable 36 hole wheelset .
    no need to go OCD premium unless it really floats your boat ..

    particularly in routes with Bike shops , damage it , then just buy a new one.
    as high summer busy shops will replace a couple spokes .

    premium stuff special orders, busy with hundreds of riders down the coast,
    you want to hang around for a week? .. orders take time .
    Last edited by fietsbob; 01-07-14 at 07:04 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by robow View Post
    garyinoz, sorry you couldn't read the inflection in my voice, my statement was totally tongue in cheek and I was just pointing out the fallacy of the statement made in the previous post. The Mavic A719 or the less expensive Mavic A319 rims are two of the very best you can buy. Mavic is one of the leading rim and wheel manufacturers in the world and your choice of A719's is an excellent one.
    I rode a set of Performance Bike XT-319 for years. Finally a crack appeared after maybe 10,000 miles. Then I got a set of Joe Young hand built White Industries hubs and 719 rims. They have a couple of thousand miles, with abou 500 on dirt trails. Still as true as the day I got them.

    It's not the rims, it's the build.
    Most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another.....Milton Friedman

  20. #20
    Fredly
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    What wheels, what kind of load?
    Velocity dyad 36h rims, shimano ultegra hub, straight 14gauge spokes iirc.
    I was maybe 330lbs at the time.

  21. #21
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    If you're hand building double eyelets make that easier too.

  22. #22
    we be rollin' hybridbkrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robow View Post
    Somebody forgot to mention that to Mavic, pathetic company that they are, their A719 and A319 rims are double eyeletted but then those are pretty crappy rims to tour on anyway.
    It's not as funny as you think. I've seen some real complaints with real pics of Mavics that cracked.
    Feeling Good by David Burns

  23. #23
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    One needs to know more than factory-brand , was this rider hard on their wheels ?,
    did they not keep them properly trued, and tensioned ..

    or has the company had to cut corners to meet demand from mass producers of wheels, for OEM builds?
    IDK , I don't work in the factory producing rims [nobody on this list,is] it's hearsay,not data.

    Have 3 pairs of Mavic rimmed self built wheels .. the touring set I built worked fine for decades.

    the E2 and Mod 3 on the 2 non tourers are just fine still..

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconicflux View Post
    Velocity dyad 36h rims, shimano ultegra hub, straight 14gauge spokes iirc.
    I was maybe 330lbs at the time.
    Thx. That must have been a funky build to go so fast. I agree about learning to build your own wheels as it enables you to recognize a problem and fix it or buy a cheap wheel and re-true it. Dyads seem to be the go to rim but I just don't think it's beefy enough for big loads and big tires at max pressure. The box rim is great for light weight and rigidity but the center section under the rim tape appears to be a point of failure for some folks who ride big tires at high psi. The cheaper heavier triple box rims like the cr18, Rhynolite, 319 and recent Atlas/Nobs rims might be a better route. I built a Dyad wheel when they first came out about 20yrs ago when I was lighter and damaged the bead bottoming out on a descent. Their aluminum seems harder than the cheap rims but the dimensions of the walls looked thin to provide the lightest weight in a 24mm wide rim.
    i've been pleased with the Handspun wheels I've bought so far.

    wrt your original decision the Chukker wheel you have looks good but a 40hole CR18 and 40 hole Velocity hub looks like an economical combo.
    Last edited by LeeG; 01-09-14 at 01:47 PM.

  25. #25
    __________ seeker333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconicflux View Post
    I have a wheel set right now that consists of a velocity chukker laced to an xt hub in the rear and a Shimano dynohub (3N80 I think) in the front...
    You already have a pretty stout WS. Assuming this is 36h, you could go 40h or 48h with Chukkers, perhaps DT Alpine TB spokes, and you'd be limited to expensive hubs available in a 40h/48h/130OLD/135OLD/9mmQR configuration, which means PW, WI, DT etc. This is a >800USD proposition whether you DIY or not.

    There are few rims tougher than the Chukker due to its width and (more importantly) height. I believe the Grizzly or A719 rim would be a step down/backwards WRT wheel longevity.

    You could use less expensive Shimano tandem hubs and respace the the rear to the appropriate OLD for an additional ~20USD.

    I say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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