Alekhine

Cliff notes at the bottom because I suck at brevity.

I sold my car and decided to build a new bike/touring tank with some of the money. I have chosen a Mercian 'King' for the frame, and I want a Rohloff speedhub. I hope this doesn't degenerate into a general "pros and cons of Rohloff" discussion, because I'm well aware of the general disadvantages, but am forging ahead anyway because of all the cool advantages, and I couldn't be more excited.

I'm still deciding what kind of crank and cog combo to go with (I'll probably do something like a Shimano Deore 44t-17, but I may go much smaller, on Thorn's suggestion [38t-16], tbd), and I'm also deciding what wheels to build around the hub, which cantilever brakes to get, etcetera...so all suggestions on other components will be most welcome, but I'm most concerned about wheels.

I'm used to big gears and light touring wheels, the first of which I do not like for touring, and I'm thinking that I'd like to offset the spinning weight of the speedhub somehow, but it's hard to come up with good ways to do it, considering the function of a typical heavy touring wheel. My idea was to sacrifice comfort and weightbearing ability slightly by still using larger, thinner, "randonee" style wheels--against the norm in today's heavy tourers--and to still choose a 'mountain bikeish' Rohloff gearing configuration that would allow me sub 20-inch gears for the California mountains, essentially a 'have your cake and eat it too' compromise between a light and heavy touring ethic and the Rohloff. I'm a 6'1" pavement-only rider who is used to these types of wheels, and I usually walk the bike to my stealthy off-road camping spots, so there's no real trailbusting factor involved in any of this. I'm not eXtreme about touring, despite my desire for a fairly bomb-proof bike. Likewise, comfort for me is more of an issue of posture. It is rare for me to cover more than 55-60 miles in a day. I've been on loaded 700 x 28c vittorias/Mavic MA3s for two years now, with no problems at all, but I'll probably go with 700 x 32s on the Mercian..Any opinions or suggestions otherwise are invited, including suggestions for appropriate 26" wheels.


Another *big* question I have right now is: What are the pros and cons of getting the OEM version of the hub, and Rohloff-specific drop-outs? Since Mercians are custom, I can do the OEM version if I want, but the proprietary nature of it sends shivers down my spine. Why would you want the OEM, other than the almost $100 off the hub, the flush installation of the wheel every tiime, and the nice lines/weight/lack of the tensioner thingee or axle plate? What's so bad about those two thingees? Weight only? Aesthetics? Functionality?

I'm concerned about this because I wonder if someday something will come out that blows the speedhub away, and my (hopefully beloved) Mercian will sadly be forever married to the Rohloff OEM because I made a poor decision on the drop-outs (or I'll have to send it back to Mercian and have them rebuild it for normal drops). I'm also concerned because I have to make that decision and tell Grant about it if I want to get the ball rolling before summer.


CLIFF NOTES:
1. Building up a new Mercian for heavy loaded touring. I'm trying to figure out a Goldilocks wheel solution to offset the spinning weight and potential sluggishness of a Rohloff speedhub. Suggestions for strong but comparatively light touring rims and tires are welcomed; try to keep it within reason $$-wise (no custom-built $1000 superwheels, in other words), since I'm spending most of my gaudy excesses on the frame and the speedhub already. Probably in 700 x 32 size...

2. OEM version of the Rohloff worth it, compared to the normal Rohloff?

3. Other component and Rohloff gearing suggestions are welcome.

4. You're great for helping. Bicyclists are the best people.

blacktom

I agree with you that the Rohloff is the perfect gear train for a touring bike - if you can live with the gear change mechanism for drop handlebars (a must for me on a touring bike). I believe Rohloff are working on this issue and if they are not, they should.

As for the Rohloff dropouts, they are designed to do the job. The other solutions are compromises for cyclists who want to convert an existing frame. If you are having a custom design, go for the Rohloff dropouts. And when the replacement for a Rohloff comes along in 50 years, buy a new bike!

No thoughts on wheels but you should consider disc brakes while you are building this ultimate tourer. They are far superior to V brakes for a loaded tourer and not too expensive now. They will fit drop handlebars if you use cable operated brakes and not hydraulic. Make sure the pannier fittings are clear of the disc brakes.

Brian.

Alekhine

Thanks BlackTom/Brian.

I feel exactly the same about drop bars, although I acknowledge flat bar goodness in its own right, for certain things. I plan on using the makeshift method for the shifting mechanism that I've seen from Thorn and Sheldon Brown. It doesn't look *that* bad, and it seems to work just fine. I do hope they come out with something ideal for drop bars soon though.

...and I likely will just go ahead and get the custom drop-outs. I am set on the Rohloff, so I might as well live and die by it right here, but... I am still very curious about the severity of the ordinary drop-out compromises, and it is hard to find info on it.

And thanks for the disc brake recommendation. I will take it under advisement, but I'm still uncertain what I'm going to do there. I like the simplicity of repair with cantilever brakes, which is an almost laughable thing to say for a guy who's dead-set on a Rohloff, but I have to admit the disc brake option is attractive to me. Any suggestions on brand or type? If not, I can do some hunting.

Sheldon Brown

1. I like the Mavic T520 & MA3, also the Sun CR18. I hear good things about Velocity too, but haven't worked with them too much.

2. OEM is definitely preferable. For maximum versatility, go for standard vertical dropouts with an eccentric bottom bracket and ISO disc brake mount. This will let you use any type of gearing system, and the ISO mount will let you use the OEM2 axle plate for easy wheel changes.

Alternatively, Rohloff dropouts are also compatible with various different gear systems. There are a couple of different ways you can attach a (ptui!) derailer if you decide to take such a backward step.

My Thorn Raven is geared 53/17 with 559 wheels. Gives me gears from 22 - 114 inches. I might replace the 17 with a 16, 'cause I occasionally wish for a higher gear and almost never use the bottom gear. (I should note that I haven't done any loaded touring on this bike...If I did, I'd probably leave the gearing as it is.)

Using a bigger chainring and sprocket reduces chain wear and frame flex.

Sheldon "Rohloff" Brown

Alekhine

*breathes a sigh of relief*

Thanks Sheldon!
Quick question: The dropbar shifter jury rig--is it difficult to install?

Sheldon Brown

Quick answer: Nope.

Sheldon "Terse" Brown

Alekhine

Wunderbar.

I think I'll just go ahead and get this underway then, and damn the torpedos! Many thanks!

Magnus Thor

I've got a Rohloff equipped bike (A Thorn Raven Catalyst) and one of the reasons I bought it was because of the Eccentric Bottom Bracket and Rohloff specific dropouts. The dropouts mean that taking the rear wheel of is actually easier than taking the wheel of a deraileur equipped bike. The Eccentric Bottom Bracked means you don't need a chain tensioner, so you have fewer things that can break or bend.

Magnus Thor
Iceland

Alekhine

Maid Mercian of England is now betrothed to Prince Rohloff of Hessen-Kassel (oops). Thanks again!

Alekhine

I decided to do the same. Magnus, what kind of crank/cog setup do you run, out of curiosity?

oknups

The Rohloff dropouts are adjustable to tighten chain, look at the pdf drawings they have on thier website. I do not know why you would need an ebb when you can just loosen 4 allen head bolts and slide the dropouts back. The dropouts are massive by the way,( and heavy) and they make one that you can hang a chain tensioner on if you decide to have a front deraileur and two chain rings up front.

Sheldon Brown

The dropouts Rohloff sells (and we stock!) have this feature.

However many Rohloff specific frames, including the Thorn Raven line have non-adjustable Rohloff-specific dropouts, and need an eccentric BB for that reason.

What makes the non-adjustable Rohloff-type dropout distinctive is that the left one has a very long slot, about 30 mm, and is very heavily built to withstand the torque of the OEM axle end.

It's kind of a tossup which approach is better, each has its advantages.

Also, any frame with an eccentric bottom bracket and an ISO disc brake mount will work well with the Rohloff OEM2 axle end. I particularly like the Salsa Juan Solo for this.

See my Rohloff Page: https://harriscyclery.com/rohloff I'm in the process of expanding this into a more elaborate Rohloff section with new photos and more info, but that stuff is not ready yet...

Sheldon "Roll On" Brown

Alekhine

Could you elaborate a bit on this please?

Sheldon Brown

OK. The adjustable dropouts are kinda funny looking, and as you adjust 'em you need to make sure they're even or the wheel will get crooked. However this is no more (nor less) an issue than anything using traditional horizontal dropouts.

The eccentric bottom bracket is a bit heavier.

Adjustments of the bottom bracket also affect the effective seat tube angle and bottom bracket height. In some cases this is a benefit, in others a detriment.

Sheldon "Slightly Prefers The Adjustable Bottom Bracket" Brown

Alekhine

OK, thanks. I'll have to talk to Grant about that. If the angles of the Mercian are significantly changed to accomodate an EBB, I may take the other option, actually, to keep myself from running up the tab on this. As it is, I'm still on an "affordable custom" basis with this machine, and I know that changing the standard angles on a Mercian costs a bit extra. Again, thanks.




***By the way, I also prefer the Mussorgsky 'Pictures' for piano, although Ravel orchestrated it because he felt it to be "unpianistic," which is also what led Horowitz to change certain passages in his magnificent but somewhat notorious version. I think Richter's 1955 Sofia performance is probably my favorite, though.

oknups

Adjusting the drops will also change things, in height ( of wheel center) and chain stay length. But I doubt most people would notice the difference. If I read the dwgs right they move 12mm at an angle of 20 degrees. Change in wheel center looks like it could be around 5mm max vertical 12mm horiz. Just rough guesses glancing at dwgs and drinking a beer.

myrcurial

Ok - despite the fact that I've just bought a new touring bike, I need to dream of the next great thing and I'm thinking of the Rohloff... and wondering about the Schlumpf dual for the front. Is that a good mix or a bad bad idea. I like the idea of the flexibility of an even greater range... especially since I may end up as an old fart before I get the next bike

blacktom

See my disc brake thread that is a page further on in the same section (Touring) as your current thread.

Brian.

Alekhine

Neat, isn't it? I will not be getting this option. It looks like a great option to have, I think, but at present the ordinary Rohloff range looks like it is probably going to be good enough for me, although choosing the ideal gearing is a bit nailbiting!

I am curious about how the chain tensioner/front derailler idea affects the feather in Rohloff's cap of a constantly perfect chainline though..

Again, I am grateful for everyone's help.



Great, thanks.

myrcurial

That's why I was curious about the Schlumpf system - it's an internally geared / planetary bottom bracket / crank replacement.

No change to the length of the chain needed.

onbike 1939

I sold my custom Mercian Vincitori tourer to buy the Thorn Raven with ROHLOFF hub. To me the idea of oem, chain tensioner et al took away from the simple elegance of the design and now I value the specific dropouts and eccentric bb which makes any maintainance so simple. For the first time ever I went for straight bars (tried the risers and impossible to get the right width for touring. I fitted stumpy barends angled forward to give me the same position as the hoods and plenty padding and this works well . With this set-up no problem with the twist grip. By the way Thorn now make a proper bar for this which fits to the stem below the drop bars. Good luck with the project.

Sheldon Brown

I agree except about the OEM issue...If you want to take advantage of the Rohloff-specific dropouts, you need the OEM version. The non-OEM models use that kludgy reaction arm under the left chainstay, which complicates wheel removal/installation considerably.

Sheldon "OEM" Brown

onbike 1939

Sorry, you're right re the oem, meant to say the opposite. I'm getting old and it shows. The advantages of the Thorn frame designed around the Rohloff hub are considerable both in looks and easy maintainance. However my next French tour of 3000 miles in the summer will provide the proof of the pudding.