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  1. #26
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    What do you think the $240 is? It costs a fair bit of money to pay for the occasional police officer that many towns require for permits.
    Another good question. Thanks! I do not know but I doubt its as much as the cost of equipment transportation and meal preparation. I would be curious to find out if you have the numbers or if the DALMAC organization releases those numbers. I could not find them on the DALMAC webpage myself. Anyone know?

  2. #27
    Every day a winding road spinnaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    Conscience? Again, and I hate to belabor the point, I have no ethical issues with doing this at all.
    Then there is something fundamentally wrong with your ethics. I really feel sorry for you. Personally I was raised a lot better than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    I could try to justify my position by saying that I am a graduate student who lives on less than 25% of the poverty limit. I could use this to argue that I cant afford the fees, but I can. Even if I had the money I would rather not pay just so that I can carry my own stuff and eat my own food. The presence of paying cyclists wouldnt bother me in the least so not at all sure why it offends so many of you so much. Well, just keep riding and try to enjoy yourselves anyways!
    Your economic situation is no justification for riding without paying. Again very sad that you think this way. What is surprising is that you think the way you do. Then again pretty common amongst so many younger people today. Again very sad.
    "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

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  3. #28
    Every day a winding road spinnaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    Another good question. Thanks! I do not know but I doubt its as much as the cost of equipment transportation and meal preparation. I would be curious to find out if you have the numbers or if the DALMAC organization releases those numbers. I could not find them on the DALMAC webpage myself. Anyone know?
    They don't need to justify their costs to anyone except maybe the federal government for income tax purposes. If you don't like the price then don't go.

    I can tell you that for 5 days with the services provided, this is the deal of the century.
    "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

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  4. #29
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinnaker View Post
    Then there is something fundamentally wrong with your ethics. I really feel sorry for you. Personally I was raised a lot better than that.



    Your economic situation is no justification for riding without paying. Again very sad that you think this way. What is surprising is that you think the way you do. Then again pretty common amongst so many younger people today. Again very sad.
    lol to absolutely all of this ^ Thanks for going off topic again though. If there are no useful contributions then the moderators are welcome to close the thread. Have a good ride everyone!
    Last edited by zeppinger; 03-31-14 at 10:21 AM.

  5. #30
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinnaker View Post
    They don't need to justify their costs to anyone except maybe the federal government for income tax purposes. If you don't like the price then don't go.

    I can tell you that for 5 days with the services provided, this is the deal of the century.
    For the services they provide, I agree, its a good deal. I just don't want most of their services. They don't own the roads on those days. The roads are public. There will be car traffic on the roads on those days too right? Driving to Mackinaw? Why all the hate for cyclists going in that direction but not the other users?

  6. #31
    apocryphal sobriquet J.C. Koto's Avatar
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    Here's what you do: Call the DALMAC organizers, tell them you want to ride for free and ask what they recommend. It's that simple.

  7. #32
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    the title of the thread pretty much indicates your intention to many. "how to ride the DALMAC *for free*". Basically saying "I want to ride this ride, but and take advantage of a lot of the work put into organization, but providing my own food and hauling my own things, so I feel justified in not paying. Why shouldn't those that paid to be part of the group accept me as part of the group?"

    I just built a straw man for you, but one that others already are waving. However, it looks a lot like you, if you're honest.

    But you're not honest with yourself.

    Please, enjoy touring whenever and wherever you want, but don't try to be part of a group you're not willing to be a full part of.

  8. #33
    Over forty victim of Fate Cougrrcj's Avatar
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    As someone who has actually organized a charity fund-raiser Century, yes, riding with the group as a non-paying participant IS theft of services.

    We scouted the safest route, promoted the ride with flyers and radio ads, drove and rode the route in the weeks prior to note hazards, swept up any glass in the road or gravel in the curves ourselves, marked the route with painted route arrows and or route signage, made the maps, provide SAG and roving ride safety/security, contact the city and county jurisdictions we'd be traveling through for permission and secured the permits to use the parks etc for rest stops, paid for our garbage removal, paid for and staged the portajohns, had to buy event insurance,... How long of a list do you want?

    Do you think that is all without expense on the ride organizer's part??? You want to ride with our group, taking advantage of our hard work and expense without paying the modest entry fee? Sorry if you think you are 'entitled' to take advantage of our hard work, but WE VIEW THAT AS THEFT!!! If you don't think so, you are just a leech, a parasite. Go ride somewhere else on the days we are on the organized ride, or ride the route by yourself on some other day.

    We don't want to associate with you or your kind!!!

    Has it sunk in yet???

  9. #34
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougrrcj View Post
    As someone who has actually organized a charity fund-raiser Century, yes, riding with the group as a non-paying participant IS theft of services.

    We scouted the safest route, promoted the ride with flyers and radio ads, drove and rode the route in the weeks prior to note hazards, swept up any glass in the road or gravel in the curves ourselves, marked the route with painted route arrows and or route signage, made the maps, provide SAG and roving ride safety/security, contact the city and county jurisdictions we'd be traveling through for permission and secured the permits to use the parks etc for rest stops, paid for our garbage removal, paid for and staged the portajohns, had to buy event insurance,... How long of a list do you want?

    Do you think that is all without expense on the ride organizer's part??? You want to ride with our group, taking advantage of our hard work and expense without paying the modest entry fee? Sorry if you think you are 'entitled' to take advantage of our hard work, but WE VIEW THAT AS THEFT!!! If you don't think so, you are just a leech, a parasite. Go ride somewhere else on the days we are on the organized ride, or ride the route by yourself on some other day.

    We don't want to associate with you or your kind!!!

    Has it sunk in yet???
    Public. Roads.

    You sound like fun chap! I can't believe anyone would not want to ride with ya! Have a good time and try not to let anyone of us "leechs" ruin it for you.

  10. #35
    Hooked on Touring
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    I hope you are wearing flame-proof biking shorts.

  11. #36
    Over forty victim of Fate Cougrrcj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    Public. Roads.
    Yes, they are. You are free to ride any road you choose. Just don't ride with the paid-participant group! You and your 'camaraderie' are NOT WELCOME!!

    I AM a fun person - just not when someone STEALS from me.

  12. #37
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougrrcj View Post
    Yes, they are. You are free to ride any road you choose. Just don't ride with the paid-participant group! You and your 'camaraderie' are NOT WELCOME!!

    I AM a fun person - just not when someone STEALS from me.
    The paid participating group does not own the road on that day. As I said before, the paid participants will still have to share the road just like they do every other day, with cars, trucks, farm equipment, and all other manner of people and vehicles. Do you hate all of them in the same way? Are they all "stealing" from you too? Of course not. The DALMAC can not control all bicycle traffic on the most beautiful stretches of roads (4 routes!) in Michigan during the most popular travel season (labor day). Lighten up.

  13. #38
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    The LEO cost might be quite a bit.
    Figure cities towns probably charge $60 per police man hr-maybe more.
    100 man hrs= $6000
    Permits might be $100-$250 per permit-
    Yeah all the costs add up-and apparently there is some charity donation aspect also??

    The term you used-DALMAC bandit- pretty much describes how you will be viewed by the paying riders.
    There are LOTS of extremely frugal folks on this forum-out and out cheapskates
    but bandit-ing the ride crosses over from cheapskate to something else.

    I'm not a joiner-it would never occur to me to ride with a huge group-so my cheapskatism will never get that test.
    But It would take any fun out of it to know my fellow riders figured I was getting over on them.

    Hmmm wonder if the food is any good- $230 not much for several meals camp site toilet (clean toilet??)
    I might see $230 as a bargain

  14. #39
    Bike touring webrarian
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    Personally, I would not do this.

    If I wanted to ride in this area (or happen to be riding in the area unaware of the organized ride), I wouldn't stay in the same towns as the planned overnights. You are right that the roads are public. Ride them whenever you want. But, riding the same exact route as the planned one without paying is asking for trouble. Why bother?

    If you want to ride with the group to experience the "thrill" (something I can't imagine doing as I like to tour solo), plan a route that intersects the planned one, ride it for some miles, and then divert from it to spend the evening elsewhere.

    I'd even go so far as to make it clear that I wasn't part of the ride and just happen to riding along the same roads for a short while.
    Visit the on-line Bike Touring Archive at www.biketouringtips.com

  15. #40
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raybo View Post
    Personally, I would not do this.

    If I wanted to ride in this area (or happen to be riding in the area unaware of the organized ride), I wouldn't stay in the same towns as the planned overnights. You are right that the roads are public. Ride them whenever you want. But, riding the same exact route as the planned one without paying is asking for trouble. Why bother?

    If you want to ride with the group to experience the "thrill" (something I can't imagine doing as I like to tour solo), plan a route that intersects the planned one, ride it for some miles, and then divert from it to spend the evening elsewhere.

    I'd even go so far as to make it clear that I wasn't part of the ride and just happen to riding along the same roads for a short while.
    This seems pretty reasonable to me. I could also start off on the first day with them and see how things go before heading off on my own in a different direction. I too like to tour solo but the idea of being with a whole bunch of people touring sounds nice too. I liked riding the Pacific Coast because it had such good facilities, was well organized, but everyone went at their own speed and you met new tourist each day because the route was so popular. Is there something like this in Michigan? Maybe just west coast route?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    I liked riding the Pacific Coast because it had such good facilities, was well organized, but everyone went at their own speed and you met new tourist each day because the route was so popular. Is there something like this in Michigan? Maybe just west coast route?
    The Pacific Coast is rather unique in that respect since it is such a popular touring route. Another possibility would be to ride sections of the Adventure Cycling routes since those also tend to have many touring cyclists. Their Lake Erie Connector route goes through Michigan, but I don't know how heavily traveled it is.

  17. #42
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    The Pacific Coast is rather unique in that respect since it is such a popular touring route. Another possibility would be to ride sections of the Adventure Cycling routes since those also tend to have many touring cyclists. Their Lake Erie Connector route goes through Michigan, but I don't know how heavily traveled it is.

    I like the looks of the route along the west coast the most. I have followed the Detroit to Muskegon route last summer and didn't bump into any other touring cyclists though.... maybe the coast is better? Are there specific weeks that are more popular than others? Great suggestion, thanks!

  18. #43
    Every day a winding road spinnaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    lol to absolutely all of this ^ Thanks for going off topic again though. If there are no useful contributions then the moderators are welcome to close the thread. Have a good ride everyone!
    It is not off topic. You are the one that mentioned it.
    "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

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  19. #44
    Senior Member Doug64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    Wow. Surprisingly strong reactions. A thief? For riding on public roads? Right.

    Show me a group ride that is made for my demographic in this area and I'll do it. Is there a ride in Michigan where you can ride with your own gear, cook your own meals, but have a nice safe route planned with other cyclists all looking out for each other?
    Yes, My wife and I did a loop around Michigan's Lower Peninsula 2 years ago. We were also in Mackinaw City at the same time as the DALMAC. If we would have known one day sooner we'd of asked the ride organizers if we could ride over the Mackinaw bridge with the group. It is only open to bikes 2 days a year.

    Michigan has over 1400 miles of rials-to-trails paths in the state, and great rural roads to ride on. If you can't find a good safe place to ride, you have not really looked!

    Copy of a Power Point slide my wife used in a presentation.
    Last edited by Doug64; 03-31-14 at 12:07 PM.

  20. #45
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Slightly off topic here.. I've ridden accidentally during some organized rides on the same route and I have been particularly disgusted with the behaviors of some riders assuming I'm a ride pirate. To be fair, had I known about the organized rides I would not have changed my route etc this usually overlaps when I am *gasp* commuting on public roads. You're entitled to transportation on public roads and an organized event doesn't change this. I won't go into the specifics but I've had some fairly rude comments coming from people who latched onto my wheel while my path overlapped their route and who the heck chews out someone they're stealth drafting?!?!?!?!?!?!?(One did get instant karma as I had to clear some phlegm and he was so tight on the inside of my wheel I didn't see him when I did my rear loogie check) I have stopped at one events drink/food booth, not to take from their supplies but rather to ask what even the particular ride was, no hostility at all from organizers and volunteers..

    That said, I don't think willfully going into an event rides route and matching it to ride with people paying for the support and other amenities of said organized ride is good conduct. They're paying for the support and resources, and this particular event like everyones saying is quite the steal on the returns. If you don't want to pay the fee, don't ride with the group.. you really should plan out your own route and stops etc that's half the fun of bike touring IMO!
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


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  21. #46
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    You asked about bandit riding in an event. The responses were not surprisingly opposed to what you were proposing.

    You say you don't want to partake in what they offer for their fee.

    However, when asked why you want to go on this ride, you reply that you think the large group of riders would make for a safer, more relaxed environment to ride a route that they put their time into exploring. It sounds to me that you want to partake in exactly what they offer for their fee.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  22. #47
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    You asked about bandit riding in an event. The responses were not surprisingly opposed to what you were proposing.

    You say you don't want to partake in what they offer for their fee.

    However, when asked why you want to go on this ride, you reply that you think the large group of riders would make for a safer, more relaxed environment to ride a route that they put their time into exploring. It sounds to me that you want to partake in exactly what they offer for their fee.
    Hardly. The DALMAC has been going on for 30-40 years depending on who you ask. The route choices are known to all just with a quick glance at the free map on their website.

  23. #48
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Slightly off topic here.. I've ridden accidentally during some organized rides on the same route and I have been particularly disgusted with the behaviors of some riders assuming I'm a ride pirate. To be fair, had I known about the organized rides I would not have changed my route etc this usually overlaps when I am *gasp* commuting on public roads. You're entitled to transportation on public roads and an organized event doesn't change this. I won't go into the specifics but I've had some fairly rude comments coming from people who latched onto my wheel while my path overlapped their route and who the heck chews out someone they're stealth drafting?!?!?!?!?!?!?(One did get instant karma as I had to clear some phlegm and he was so tight on the inside of my wheel I didn't see him when I did my rear loogie check) I have stopped at one events drink/food booth, not to take from their supplies but rather to ask what even the particular ride was, no hostility at all from organizers and volunteers..
    That's some serious bullying and I can not understand that attitude either. I seem to be getting the internet equivalent of that at the moment on this forum.

    I don't really see what the difference is though, if you don't use their facilities, why they would care about you being on their route for any length of time. It would seem to me that they are the ones that have a misplaced sense of entitlement.
    Last edited by PhotoJoe; 03-31-14 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Fixed quote code

  24. #49
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=zeppinger;16628534]
    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighSport View Post
    Slightly off topic here.. I've ridden accidentally during some organized rides on the same route and I have been particularly disgusted with the behaviors of some riders assuming I'm a ride pirate. To be fair, had I known about the organized rides I would not have changed my route etc this usually overlaps when I am *gasp* commuting on public roads. You're entitled to transportation on public roads and an organized event doesn't change this. I won't go into the specifics but I've had some fairly rude comments coming from people who latched onto my wheel while my path overlapped their route and who the heck chews out someone they're stealth drafting?!?!?!?!?!?!?(One did get instant karma as I had to clear some phlegm and he was so tight on the inside of my wheel I didn't see him when I did my rear loogie check) I have stopped at one events drink/food booth, not to take from their supplies but rather to ask what even the particular ride was, no hostility at all from organizers and volunteers..

    QUOTE]

    That's some serious bullying and I can not understand that attitude either. I seem to be getting the internet equivalent of that at the moment on this forum.

    I don't really see what the difference is though, if you don't use their facilities, why they would care about you being on their route for any length of time. It would seem to me that they are the ones that have a misplaced sense of entitlement.
    The difference is my path overlapped theirs coincidentally and wasn't a full tour.. am I mistaken or do you not plan to follow the same exact path of the event at the exact same time, using the same facilities and relying on the other riders as a safety net of sorts?
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


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  25. #50
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RaleighSport;16628544]
    Quote Originally Posted by zeppinger View Post
    The difference is my path overlapped theirs coincidentally and wasn't a full tour.. am I mistaken or do you not plan to follow the same exact path of the event at the exact same time, using the same facilities and relying on the other riders as a safety net of sorts?
    Either you are mistaken or I did not state my idea as clearly as I had thought. Probably my fault. I was planning to follow their full path, thought I am reconsidering that, but not using any of their facilities. I had originally asked if the DALMAC peeps care much if I camped with them but apparently that is a hot-button issue for some reason I can't understand and so, if I did go, would probably not do that. I would have no reason to rely on other riders because I would likely be far more self contained than them. I would hope that if something did happen, such as a crash or something, that they would help as human beings but from some of the responses so far I am not so sure. I would certainly help out any of them with repair should anything happen to them! That's just common courtesy between fellow cyclists!

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