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Old 04-03-14, 02:49 PM   #1
LlamaBikes
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Drivetrain Components for a Soma Saga build

Hi Friends! I am in the process putting together a new touring build. I now have a dilemma of choosing the right drivetrain components. Originally I had chosen these components:

[table="width: 500"]
[tr]
[td]BB[/th]
[td]SKF BAS-600 JIS 110mm[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Crank[/td]
[td]Sugino XD-600 Crank Triple 46x36x24 172.5mm[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Front Mech[/td]
[td]Shimano XT M771 Conventional 9sp 28.6mm[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Rear Mech[/td]
[td]Shimano XT M772 Shadow 9sp Long Cage[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Cassette[/td]
[td]Shimano HG-50 11-32T[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Shifters[/td]
[td]Shimano Dura Ace SL-7700 DT Shifters[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Chain[/td]
[td]SRAM PC-971 w/powerlink[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

But my LBS is saying that XT components won't be compatible with my front crank, and they suggested going with Ultegra derailleurs instead. What are your thoughts on this?
I was thinking if the Sugino crank really doesn't work with XT derailleurs that well, it might be a better idea to go with an XT crank instead of switching the derailleurs? Or is going with Ultegra derailleurs not such a big deal? I heard they were less durable and more finicky, but have no practical experience with them. I also heard that indexed road shifters are not 100% compatible with XT derailleurs, but have seen many a bike with the combo, so who knows on that.

Many thanks!
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Old 04-03-14, 02:54 PM   #2
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happy shopping ..


Why do you think you need XT?, Deore is sufficient IMO.


Indexing mix and match is often an issue .. good luck .


1 Rohloff hub solved my gearing problems ... but to each their own ..


my derailleurs were bar end shifted.. taking a hand off the bars to shift gears lost its appeal a long time ago.
particularly with a touring load, aboard..

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830628723.pdf

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Old 04-03-14, 03:18 PM   #3
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Hi,

The XT rear derailleur will work just perfectly with you combination. I run a similar system just with different shifters and crank and it works a treat. I cant see why a crank form a different manufacturer would change the rear derailleurs performance. If an ultegra derailleur will work then an XT will work also. Last year I put an XT long cage derailleur into my compact road bike and it worked a treat.

As for compatibility, all Shimano Dyna-shift 10 speed derailleurs must use Shimano Dyna-shift 10 speed shifters. This may be the source of the confusion for your bike shop mechanic. 9 speed xt derailleur will not cause a problem as they are compatible with your system.

I wouldn't really consider anything else, I saying that the Deore one would probably work very well too.

Good luck with the build,

Donnie
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Old 04-03-14, 03:21 PM   #4
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if you are using DT or bar end snifters it really doesn't matter much up front as they operate in friction shift mode only... you could go and pull a front derallur from a walmart bike and it would likely work fine... I used an old sunrace blaze front deralleur for a double crank (stock on my early 90's trek 400 I had) with a shimano ultegra triple crank and ultegra barcons (8spd)... the front just doesn't care with friction shifting... in fact given the option I'd prefer a friction shifter up front than indexed (clicker), it allows perfect "trim"
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Old 04-03-14, 03:22 PM   #5
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I can't comment on the front derailleur compatibility with that crankset, but my understanding is that any 9 speed shimano mtb rear derailleur will work with 9 or 10 speed Shimano road shifters. The 10 speed Shimano rear derailleurs, on the other hand, are not compatible.
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Old 04-03-14, 03:30 PM   #6
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some good info in this thread...

Sugino XD600 vs MTB Triple?
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Old 04-03-14, 04:55 PM   #7
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The Shimano Tiagra 4503 front derailleur is much more flexible and forgiving than the other Shimano road FD's. It will work fine with that Sugino crank and STI sifters.

I've used that derailleur on several Sugino-DX 500 Mtb cranks as well as the XD- 600 cranks. The only andjustment needed between the Mtb and road cranks is the need for different sized bottom bracket spindles to maintain the proper chainline.

Your rear derailleur may work fine, but I'm not sure about the "shadow" components. The LX and older XT work fine.
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Old 04-03-14, 05:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
Your rear derailleur may work fine, but I'm not sure about the "shadow" components. The LX and older XT work fine.
the 9spd shadow works the same... it just moves the cage so it's more in line with the chainstay so the knuckle isn't as likely to catch on stuff while on the trail (it is a MTB system afterall)

Shadow


vs traditional
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Old 04-03-14, 06:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
The Shimano Tiagra 4503 front derailleur is much more flexible and forgiving than the other Shimano road FD's. It will work fine with that Sugino crank and STI sifters.

I've used that derailleur on several Sugino-DX 500 Mtb cranks as well as the XD- 600 cranks. The only andjustment needed between the Mtb and road cranks is the need for different sized bottom bracket spindles to maintain the proper chainline.
The BB I was planning on using was the SKF BAS-600 JIS 110mm...

After all this confusion I think I might just end up going friction, but still am looking for a good front derailleur since I'm told the XT front derailleur wants a 12 tooth difference between chainrings I'd rather find something that's a bit more flexible. I'm thinking of using the 46/36/26 Sugino, would the Tiagra 4503 still be good for that ring size setup? Any others I should check out or is that pretty much the front derailur to run with Sugnio cranksets.


Also, I'm thinking of switching to the HG-61 12-36T cassette and sticking with the XT shadow rear derailleur.


Thanks for all your help!
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Old 04-03-14, 07:04 PM   #10
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LlamaBikes, The 7700 FD shifter is friction so that shouldn't be what the mechanic is concerned with. The XT FD spec. does call for a 12 tooth difference between middle and outside chain ring: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830671849.pdf . The FD-4503 specs. an 11 tooth difference: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830606982.pdf .

A 10 tooth difference can be "fudged" more easily with the Tiagra FD.

Brad
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Old 04-03-14, 07:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
LlamaBikes, The 7700 FD shifter is friction so that shouldn't be what the mechanic is concerned with. The XT FD spec. does call for a 12 tooth difference between middle and outside chain ring: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830671849.pdf . The FD-4503 specs. an 11 tooth difference: http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830606982.pdf .

A 10 tooth difference can be "fudged" more easily with the Tiagra FD.

Brad
That helps! I notice that the Shimano FD-4503 doc you linked says minimum 11 tooth difference, so if I swapped the outer ring on the XD600 for a 48, that would work within Shimano's recommendations, and should work without problem?

Merci!
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Old 04-03-14, 07:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LlamaBikes View Post
That helps! I notice that the Shimano FD-4503 doc you linked says minimum 11 tooth difference, so if I swapped the outer ring on the XD600 for a 48, that would work within Shimano's recommendations, and should work without problem?

Merci!
You're welcome. Try it with the original chain ring first.

Brad
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Old 04-03-14, 10:56 PM   #13
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I got the same front XT 771,,but the a Scram X9 rear...Scram X7 shifters
Could get twist shifters up on dropbar,,been a looking at Salsa Woodchipper II bars.
Found a Shimano Deore M590 crank,,26,36,48 and Shimano M770 XT cassete
11 13 15 17 20 23 26 30 34

It is on my Surly Ogre,,it is a flat bar,,with Ergon GP5 ends
Do long weekend loaded rides,,front/rear panniers,45lbs plus.
Live at 5000+ elevation,,with plenty of climbing long rides.
Works great.

Last edited by flash63; 04-03-14 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 04-03-14, 11:21 PM   #14
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Another Saga build
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Old 04-03-14, 11:23 PM   #15
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I have the exact same set up with a Shimano XT 48-36-26 crank and it works great. You have the same 22 tooth chainring spread as I do, just smaller. Mine shifts fine. I commute about 30 miles a day on it without issue. It looks like you should have no issue with your set up either, unless you expect to have indexed shifting up front. I actually use friction front and rear.
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Old 04-04-14, 08:59 AM   #16
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Llama, Did Soma Saga build 2 yrs. ago with son. Ran into $$ mid way so made some compromises with components. Used Sigano VP, 46-34-24, IRD Alpina d FD, (from Harris Cyclery) Shimano DT shifters, 7x rear, with used 105 Rd, He wanted bullhorn bars. I sometimes ride it w/o pemmission
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Old 04-05-14, 07:30 AM   #17
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I have a sugino crank on my voyageur, paired with tiagra integrated shifters and LX derailleurs. It works great. I sometimes consider swapping the crank for a modern shimano MTB crank, something with an external cup BB, because they are so much stiffer than the square taper that the sugino uses. If I were starting fresh that's what I would do for sure. The suginos are classy and attractive but they don't have the same stiffness or feel as powerful.
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Old 04-07-14, 05:12 PM   #18
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If I were you, I'd look into going to another bike shop. The stuff you planned in the original post should all work just great together. Certainly the rear derailer isn't going to be affected at all by the Sugino crank, or vice-versa. I personally would strongly consider the 9sp. bar-end shifters, but otherwise it looks like a great set-up.

I'm running an older(2000s) LX front derailer, shifting a modern SLX crank(2012 model) with 44/32/22 rings and it shifts just great. I've shifted that same crank with an older XT derailer. In my experience, the Shimano MTB derailers will shift most any crank just fine. You're going to be friction in the front anyway with bar-end or DT shifters, so you don't even have to worry about getting the indexing just right. Maybe the road derailer would also shift that Sugino crank fine too. I don't know. I do know the couple Shimano double road derailers I've dealt with were more picky than the MTB triples.

As Kpfeif mentioned, the newer external BB MTB cranks do feel stiffer than square tapers. I especially notice that on my MTB, and I didn't even expect to. I figured I wasn't in tune to notice subtle things like that, but I could feel the difference when I swapped cranks. I don't know if it makes as much difference on my touring, but I haven't ridden square taper in a couple years, so maybe I'd notice more if I rode a square taper crank again and then hopped on the touring.

Last edited by 3speed; 04-07-14 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 04-08-14, 07:31 AM   #19
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My Bob Jackson World Tour has a Sugino 50-36-24 crankset and a 9-speed Shimano groupset with Dura-Ace bar-end shifters, Ultegra triple FD, XT rear derailleur and a 12-34 cassette. It shifts perfectly. I don't know why your mechanic says this combination won't work.
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Old 04-08-14, 09:35 AM   #20
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tarwheel, I think the mechanic is concerned that the difference between the middle and outer chainrings are not within Shimano's minimum specifications.

A couple of items I didn't previously mention...First, the mechanic is also probably aware that the 771's cage may not match the circumference of the larger Sugino's large chainring, this too is out of Shimano's specification. I think he's doing his job for his customer properly. Second is that I'm using a RX100 FD to shift an 8T difference, 34-42T, on my back-up touring bike as it may not be relevant to his build.

Brad
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