3speed

Keep in mind that I don't have hundreds to spend on nice panniers. I could maybe swing the Nashbar fronts and a cheap low rider rack if my idea won't work out. On to the idea!

I have a rear rack and one of those little front racks that just mounts over the wheel. I am hoping to get away with a set of Axiom rear panniers(the DXL 35 liter in particular), sleeping bag in stuff sack on top of rear rack, tent in a "trunk bag" on the little front rack, and a handlebar bag. Does that generally sound like enough room to go tour in Western Europe for 2-3 months? The plan is Warm Showers as much as possible, camping the rest of the time. I have small-ish titanium camp cooking set and stove. Athletic shirts, a few pairs of zip-off pants, and I figure I should take my down coat that fits into it's own pocket and a rain coat. Then I'll probably need to be able to take a couple days worth of food sometimes between towns or maybe if we decide to try to ride over the alps. This will be my first real tour, so I'm pretty uncertain still of how much room I should plan on needing.

fietsbob

do you have enough to actually pay for the cost of the trip ? free camps are rare , unless you are away from population centers

and ask for permission..

Cyclebum

When you learn your needs for a 3 day tour, then you're good for 3 months, or 3 years. It's repetitive. Ride, eat, camp. Just have room for lots of water, depending on location and temperature. Clothing does plays a role, again temp dependent. Western Europe. Piece of cake.

It'll all work out. Go for it.

Doug64

+1

In my experience there is not much difference in packing for 3 weeks or 3 months. However, you might encounter some seasonal changes on the longer tour requiring different clothes. A set of "dress up" casual might be nice for museums, and nicer restaurants. I've done some shorter, 3 week, tours with pretty much the same setup you described, except no front rack at all. I'm guessing you would do fine with what you describe. However, if you need more space Nashbar panniers will work. My first front panniers were Nashbar, and while they are not fancy they worked well on a 3700 mile cross country ride. They would be a good option if you find the need for more room. I'm still using them daily on my around town bike.

IMO- Most of western Europe is easier to tour in for extended periods than the U. S. and Canada. Services are generally closer together, and there are an abundance of campgrounds, hotels, guesthouses,etc. The exception might be in southern Portugal and Spain. I am not familiar with eastern Europe or the Scandinavian countries.

3speed

It's going to be a very tight budget, but it's something that I've always wanted to do and a friend and I have a chance to do it, so we're gonna figure out how to make it work. I'm currently trying to figure out how I can get by on ~$1500, so ~$500/month or a little over since I don't think we'll be there a full 3 months. Do you think it can be done on ~$15-18/day? As for the camping, the plan is to only spend the night in larger areas where we can find Warm Showers hosts or very cheap hostel type situations.

Doug64

Camping in Europe is not cheap. In my experience it can cost from 10 -25 Euro/ night at established campgrounds. Right now the exchange rate is: 10 Euros = $13.85. I'm not sure you can even eat on $15-$18/ day (11-13 Euro), especially in Switzerland. Bottled water, you can't always get tap water, is often more than 3 Euro/ bottle.

Hopefully, you will get more opinions.

It has been 2 years since we rode there, but I don't think much has changed. We were there for 3 months, and went well over our budget which we based on touring in the U.S. and Canada.

3speed

Well, on the plus side, while I have ~$1500 to get me through, my touring partner has a little better budget. While I will try to pay my share, of course, he might be fine with paying for a couple more rooms than me if it comes to that. If all else fails, we can always just do the best US tour we can figure out. We're excited to get out on our bikes and see whatever we can. This is why I love this forum. Every night I read things, and once in a while start a thread myself, and I always learn new things that I am looking for, and things that I just learn because everyone here is so helpful to the community in general. Thank you.

Machka 

1. Have you done a short tour or two yet? What the others say is true … once you settle on what to take with you for a 3-day tour, it is pretty much the same as what you’ll take with you on a 3-month tour. In fact, I carry slightly more on a short tour than I do on a long tour. I’ll carry an extra luxury item or two (like a book) when I know I only have to carry it for a few days. But I’ll leave things like that at home for longer tours.

2. On my first tour or two, I carried everything under the assumption that I had to carry everything. But then I discovered that if I was missing something, chances are I could buy it along the way. So you can travel fairly light to places like Europe. In France, you’ll go to Decathlon or GoSport shops for inexpensive cycling and camping gear, and to the Carrefours for your groceries and toiletries, and you’ll be set. (Just be sure to have your fruit and veg weighed and tagged in the fruit and veg section, like you would in a deli section, not at the check-out.)

Decathlon – DECATHLON - Sports Shoes, Sportswear and Sports Equipment
Carrefour – Fromage: Accueil | Carrefour.fr ... You can check out prices of groceries online before you go. This page shows you the cheese selection available, and how much it costs.

3. When are you planning to go? Note that August is holiday month, and it can be quite difficult to a) find a place to stay for the night, and b) find stuff open during the month of August. I also got the feeling that accommodation was more expensive then too … especially when prices started to drop a bit at the end of August/beginning of September. Also note that a lot of places close starting mid-to-late September. However, if you’re planning to go May – July, you might have better luck finding places to stay, and places for reasonable prices.

4. Have you looked up Warm Showers, hostels, and other inexpensive accommodations in Europe? Do you have an idea how much you might pay for a bed or a campsite? Do you have an idea of availability and where these places might be located?

We used this site to look up camping options when we were there in 2012: ACSI Eurocampings - 9800 by ACSI inspected camp sites in Europe!
It will give you an idea what’s available, where it is, how much it might cost, and whether or not they allow tents.

And not all campgrounds allow tents anymore … that was a problem we ran into a couple times. The “campgrounds” marked on the map turned out to be holiday villages of permanent caravans and cabins containing residents who did not want anyone pitching a tent within their little gated community. We had to keep moving and find another place.

5. At the moment, with the current exchange rate, a 20 Euro bed in a hostel (pretty cheap) will cost you approx. $28 USD. So can you do it on $15-$18 per day? Not if you’re planning to stay in hostels every night. You’re probably looking at 20-40€ for a campsite (depending when you go, where you go, and what’s available), but that would be split between you and your friend, especially if you only have one tent between you.

Food can be comparatively more expensive than it is in North America too … generally speaking if you pay $5 for whatever it is in the US, you’ll likely pay 5€ for it in Europe. Not always, of course, sometimes there are specials. One year the price of cheese in France was quite inexpensive, and thus it was a main feature of our diet.

Europe can be quite an expensive place to tour (especially Switzerland!). I’m not going to say you can’t do it on $15-$18/day (if you spent most of your time in Scotland, for example, where you can free camp, and if you ate oatmeal breakfast, lunch, and dinner, it’s a possibility), but I think most people touring Europe count on at least double that.

6. I don’t know what your itinerary is, but are you planning to cross from the UK to mainland Europe? If so, don’t forget to factor the cost of that into your budget. Are you planning to take trains? Urban trains are inexpensive (i.e. your whole day’s budget), but the trains that travel any distance are more expensive.

7. How are your language skills? Again, I don’t know where you’re going, but we found our limited German to be a bit of a difficulty when we were in Germany, especially if we were trying to negotiate anything. French-speaking areas were better because we’ve got enough French to be able to hold something that resembled a conversation. I’d recommend picking up a bit of the language wherever you’re going. Sometimes being able to negotiate in the local language can help you get a slightly better deal.

8. And finally, here’s our setup for 3 months in Europe (England, Scotland, The Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, France, Switzerland, France, and England)

Caretaker

I've toured in France, Spain, Portugal, Sicily and have hosted (Warmshowers) many American and European touring cyclists on various budgets.

Cost: It can be done on $15-$18/day per person if you are young, personable and prepared to put up with a bit of discomfort. Choose the less expensive countries, camp away from civilisation or in French municipal campsites (€7-€10). Stay on the continent to avoid ferry costs. Shop in Aldi and Lidl.

What time of year are you planning on travelling?

3speed

We're both completely prepared and fine with putting up with cheap, repetitive food sources, sleeping on the ground, etc. Some discomfort is fine if it means we can ride our bikes around for months to see new places and meet people from different cultures. We were planning on mid-June through sometime in September. The time might be somewhat adjustable. We are both personable and fairly young(28&30). I'm a manager for a customer service based company who is good at that aspect of my job, and I've had multiple owners of nearby businesses try to get me to switch to their business. The friend I'll be touring with is equally friendly, polite, and well rounded. No problems there.

Caretaker

If I were you I'd start a bit earlier than mid-June, because Southern Europe will be very hot and full of tourists in July & August. Ideally start in the South in May or even April to take in Spring while everything is still green in Spain and Italy, then work North as the trip goes on. Do lots of research and ask people as you go about free days in museums etc.

Travelling as a pair will be an advantage (cost and weight wise) provided you don't fall out.

Best of luck with the trip.

indyfabz

+1. It wasn't relatively cheap when I toured southern Spain in '00, at least not compared to camping in many parts of the U.S. The odd thing in Spain was that they charged by the person and for the equipment. One charge for my person and an additional charge for the tent. I was recently looking on line at a campground in Italy and I think it was the same deal.

OP: If you will only stay in larger towns, and possibly with hosts, I don't see the need to carry food for multiple days. Even small towns are likely to have markets or other food sources. Last year I was in Italy doing day rides and that was the case. Our base was in a small town that was a 15 min. bus ride form a sizeable town. Even so, there was a good size supermarket within walking distance from our residence.

+1 for staying out of southern Spain in July and August. It can be God awful hot. I would avoid the coast completely as it's not that impressive and extremely crowded in the summer, not to mention hot as well. As Caretaker notes, the south is best taken in during sring.

Some countires may have national tourist offices in the U.S. When I was planning my Spain trip, there was a Spanish NTO in New York. I called them and they mailed me booklets showing campgrounds in each province I intended to visit. Much of this stuff may be available on line now, but if not you might try the same route.

Doug64

I'm really not trying to discourage you. Just the opposite, I'm rooting for you to pull it off!

However, I am trying to depict a realistic picture so that your expectations are realistic. You have not talked much about your past touring experience or mechanical skills, which also have a bearing on how well you do.

Having some contingency funds, whether, cash or plastic, is not just a luxury, it is pretty much a necessity. If circumstance necessitate using public transportation, a mechanical problem, or medical need; having a little in reserve is necessary. Then there are the every day things like sunscreen, stove fuel, a set of new brake pads, a bottle of chain lube, a broken cleat (that's why I quit using Look pedals), and toilet paper. Many of the European campgrounds, even the so called luxury sites, often do not furnish toilet paper. However, they do sell it at the camp store

Portugal, Spain, and Germany were the least expensive for us; with France, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Switzerland more expensive.

I think Machka and the other folks that suggest a couple of short trial tours has a lot of merit. It won't answer all the questions, but should give you an inkling of what a day on the bike could cost. Ride to a public or private pay campground, buy one meal out (not at McDonalds), extrapolate from there, and then add 50%. A McDonalds' $12 meal for 2 here costed 28 Euro in Switzerland. You could do this virtually, but it would be more fun to ride it.

We hit high temperatures of 43C, 110F, in southern Spain in late June

I really do wish you good luck on your venture.

P.S. Just another thought: There were posts on this forum awhile ago wanting to know about average costs for crossing the U.S., etc. This might be helpful, or not.

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/94...-trans-am.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/93...t-touring.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/86...tour-cost.html

Caretaker

I've only ever camped in France and nearly always in municipal camp sites that are easy to find in rural areas. Basic facilities, just sectioned off sites and an shower/toilet block, a sink for washing dishes/clothes and that's it. Normally a night for someone with a tent not needing electricity is about €6-€8 ($8-$11) and sometimes I've gotten away without paying in less frequented ones where no one turned up to collect the fee.

In France you will come across camp sites especially in tourist areas alongside lakes or near the coast that have stuff for families like swimming pools and they are more expensive. Rough camping is apparently illegal in France but provided you are discrete I doubt you will be bothered.

bikemig 

If you don't mind mosquitoes, the freedom to roam gives you plenty of places to sleep for free in Sweden and the like: Freedom to roam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are lots and lots and lots of forests. No one is going to care if you pull off the road to sleep in a forest as long as you don't make a nuisance of yourself and clean up afterwards.

It's more of a crap shoot in the more built up parts of Europe but possible there as well. I slept outside on mountain tops in the Black Forest when I hiked it. I'm sure it was mildly illegal but no one cared. I had a backpack and slept outside in areas where there was no one and cleaned up afterwards. I've done the same on cycle trips in France where there are plenty of small forests and the like. I'm not saying that you should do it or that it is legal (it is not). But if you are young, you can take a few chance in life from time to time . . . .

3speed

We were thinking more along the lines of sleeping in a wooded patch when we can find one vs. pay camp sites. Neither of us has any problem getting off the road a ways and clearing a spot to pitch the tent.

Machka 

Where in Europe are you planning to go ... approximate itinerary?


In Google, look up: free camping France or free camping Germany or free camping Spain ... or wherever you plan to go? There should be quite a few sites which will give you information about that.

It is apparently illegal to free camp in France, but it is legal in other places like Scotland and Sweden. One other thing you may have to take into consideration is that many parts of Europe are developed/built-up. In other words, towns and cities are a stones throw from each other, and in between the land is farmed. That's not the case everywhere, of course ... it would depend where you're planning to go. But in some areas it might not be easy to fine a wooded patch off the road a ways that isn't someone's land.

And I'm not trying to discourage you either ... it's just that $15-$18/day is really low. You might be able to make that work if you're very, very careful, but it doesn't allow room for unexpected expenses ... or areas (like Switzerland) that are more expensive.

BTW - Doug is right about the toilet paper ... you'll probably want to pick up a 4-pack at Aldi and share it between you and your friend.

He's also right about the McDonalds meals in Switzerland ... jaw-dropping expensive! But fortunately the grocery stores aren't quite so bad. We were able to get chocolate yogurt (one of my favourites) for a reasonable price ... similar to what you'd pay here in Australia.

And I'd second the comment about leaving earlier and avoiding Europe in August. Are you planning to go this year? Or next year?

Caretaker

Don't eat at McD's, much better value mid-day in France where you see a 'plat du jour' sign, although on your budget you may have to save up to afford the €10-€12.50 price for the set three-four course meal with wine. Another great thing about France is that practically every village has a public w.c. but as others have pointed out, you'll need to bring toilet paper. Toilet paper is essential equipment on any cycle tour anyway.

Another possibility worth considering is signing up for the Camino, the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela in Northern Spain for which you need 'credentials' to use the pilgrim hostels along the various routes. You can get these before leaving or when you arrive. Haven't done it myself but know people who have. Anyone can do it, even atheists.

Way of St. James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Request Credentials for Camino

3speed

We were planning on this year, leaving in a couple months, but perhaps we'll push that back if August is a bad time. A slight push back is doable. And no need to worry about the McDonalds. Neither of us touches that crap here in the US where it's $1 for "food" off of the "value menu" so I don't see much reason for us to have a change of heart because we're in Europe.

If any of you have used Warm Showers, do you think it's likely that we'll be able to find hosts very often while there, or will we likely need to plan on figuring out our own sleeping basically the whole time we're there?

Machka 

Well ... you won't likely find fast food for $1 in Europe. Go to grocery stores ... Aldi and Lydl are quite cheap, but we found their stock limited. Carrefour has more variety, but may be a little bit more expensive.


Where were you thinking of being during August? What part of Europe?



Have you looked up your Warm Showers options? There should be a website.

mm718

Can you bring a credit card for emergencies or if you have to extend the budget by a modest amount? Read crazyguyonabike journals to see what people did for accommodation in Europe. Two journals come to mind "Just Let it Happen." and "West from Japan." These are both budget minded tourers who used warm showers and free or budget camping as much as possible. Also simply googling "free camping in Europe" may give you some ideas.

Wild camping in Europe: how and where to do it | Travel | The Guardian

indyfabz

That reminds me of something important...

OP: Make sure you tell you card company/bank that you will be travelling in Europe. If you don't, you card very well may not work. A friend who met us in Italy last year didn't inform his bank of his travel plans. He tried to use an ATM to get cash and had no luck. He had to call his bank back home before he could use ATMs.

Doug64

We don't usually eat at McDonalds either, but getting in out of the rain for something warm was a priority that day. We usually try to sample the local dishes, and McD is definitely not local. Sometimes you just have to go with what is open or go without

Depending where you are in Europe the Cafes and restaurants are not open all day. They close about 1:00 pm and don't open until 6:00 or 7:00 pm. They often do not open early for breakfast. However, the bakeries do! This is especially true in southern Europe.

You can ride through a small town in southern Spain between the hours of 1:00 pm and 4:00 pm and not see a person.

Another thought. The longer you wait to book your flight, the higher the ticket prices. It is a good time to start thinking about tickets.

3speed

We are looking a tickets now. So far we're finding ~$1500, assuming flying out in ~6 weeks. Machka, like I said, we were planning on being there this summer, but since you guys said August isn't a good time, I'm thinking maybe we'll push it back. Maybe September-beginning of November if it's not too cold? And I know there is a Warm Showers website. I was just hoping to get an idea of how likely we are to find hosts from someone who's done it. Thanks for those sites, mm718. And I do plan on taking a credit card in case of emergencies. I'll use it if I have to. I'm just going to try Extremely hard to manage my budget well enough to avoid using it, and of course hope for no emergencies. Those aren't always planned, of course...

Caretaker

^^Can't help much on the Warmshowers experience as although I've host about 30 times I've only been a guest once. That was a very convenient place about 3km from the airport in Portugal.

Some of the people I've hosted have used Warmshowers on their travels and I get the impression it can be a bit hit or miss. Firstly, hosts don't always respond to enquiries, they can be far apart and the quality of the accommodation/facilities can vary greatly. When it does work out it's a great way to meet people and learn about the locality.

You shouldn't regard Warmshowers as your primary accommodation solution. I'd say you'll be lucky to get one a week on average.