Wowk

That simply scares me. If I could last 3 months with pain, continue my tour and eventually have surgery, I actually probably would to be honest. I have thought about the doctor but since it seems to be something that won't be diagnosed immediately, I haven't been bothered, since I am moving alot.

jeffpoulin

That's funny. I just returned from the canal de Bourgogne (Burgundy) yesterday. I wonder if we crossed paths. I have occasional knee pain too, right behind the patella as you have. I had an MRI last year and it was confirmed that I have a slight tear in my meniscus. For me, the solution is to take ibuprofen, sleep on my back with a small pillow resting under my knee, and most importantly, stretch as B. Carfree mentioned (at least twice per day for about 10 minutes each time). The stretching helps a lot, but of course, it'll take some time before you'll notice the improvement. In your case, taking a few days off (or taking very easy days) may save your trip. If you're near Tournus, visit the cycling museum. You're in the heart of wine country, so you could go on a wine tour to pass the time. Obviously, knowing French will help a lot, but if you don't, you'll find that many people in France do speak English pretty well, especially those who cater to tourists.

Wowk

Quite possibly! Thanks for the thoughts mate.

ekibayno

The world hasn't moved on to clipless pedals without good reason. The lower leg must be able to rotate during the pedal stroke. Ditch the toeclips and get SPD pedals and shoes.

Steve Hogg is the leading bike fitter in Australia - you can read what he says about knee pain here. And another good US publication here. Both assume the use of clipless pedals.

Doug64

When you make it to Barcelona, it might be good to see if you can find a physical therapist that does bike fitting; they are relatively common in our area. Depending on where you are in France there may be several large cities before you reach Barcelona. At a bike fitting by a trained physical therapist they discovered that my wife has a leg length difference that was causing a lot of knee problems. A professional fit by the PT resulted in a 5 mm shim under one of her cleats to offset the difference. No more problems.

Bottom line: try to get a professional bike fitting.

Where are you in France?

Machka 

Good for you. I cannot understand people who would cancel a tour and return home. You've got the time ... you're there. Why on earth would you pack it all in and go home?

However, you might opt to take a break. One of the things I really like about Europe is that you can hop a train and be in another part of the continent in an afternoon. So if you have to be somewhere by a certain date, you can take the train there, and then spend a few days off the bicycle wandering around and exploring, or sitting and resting, and taking in the atmosphere, or doing bus tours or whatever catches your fancy.

Things like this are a reason why I keep suggesting to build flexibility into a tour ... include rest days, include the option of going here rather than going there, etc.

Machka 

What is your cadence like?

technick

Have you tried taking Glucosomine? I use 1500mg which helps plus ibuprofen when in pain.

Wowk

80-90, I try and keep it high.

Wowk

Thanks Doug. I have been looking into it, but I have had no luck in Dijon, where I currently am. Will be cycling south to Lyon , where I will try and seek one out. Language barrier is the real issue here, considering the complexity of the issue

Machka 

That's good.

When was the last time you took a day off?

Wowk

Last three days have been resting in Dijon. The pattern is something like this: cycle and wild camp for 2/3 days. Rest day. Then on the bike for another 3 days or so. By this point my knees are usually getting quite bad so I will bunker down for three days in a city like I am now, until I feel my knees can handle more riding .

Machka 

Any chance you can post a photo of you on the bicycle ... especially with one foot extended, in the 6:00 position (bottom of the pedal stroke)?

Wowk

Yep! Should have it up in the next 24 hours. Thanks for the concern mate.

Doug64

It sounds like you are just about on the same route that my wife and I rode a couple of years ago. Part of our route took us through Barcelona to Montpellier, north to Lyons and then to Dijon. Lyons is about 4 times the size of Dijon, so you may have a better chance there.

I had a pretty serious eye issue in France which took almost a week to find a ophthalmologist and get treated; it all worked out. I actually got it worked on at the Rothschild Institute of Ophthalmology in Paris, a world class research facility. As some French friends said, "the French don't really mean the first "no" when someone asks them for something". It saved us from having to cut a planned 3 month tour short at about the halfway point. I did bring a nice bouquet of flowers to the ophthalmologist's receptionist who helped me get in to see the doctor, and work out the details. It can be done.

Good luck!

LeeG

I might have missed your miles per day but what you're describing is overuse injury, simply riding more or harder than yours knees can handle in two days. Whatever the specific cause happens to be I'd suggest first cutting down intensity/pushing significantly and learn to go slow. Take the average of your miles per day including rest days and that's your new max per day. Seems to me you're simply riding to injury instead of riding within your capabilities.

the positive thing is that you are finding recovery, the worrisome thing is that you are repeating the injurious activity for a month already which may take month long recovery. Reducing total miles is obvious, if you were trying to pile on miles to get to a destination shorten your destination considerably. More important is reducing peak effort, if you generally take it easy but jam up hills or from a stop you could be taking yourself into the recovery zone from tissue damage and not even feel it until swelling starts later. If you're using pain as a clue it's time to take a break it's too late, damage is done.

If you normally jump on the pedals for short efforts, cut those out, if you have lower gears on long climbs drop down to them and lower your effort considerably.

When I was young I got pretty good at sitting on the bike for hours but when I started riding harder it was obvious I had to have recovery days. As I got stronger warming up and protecting the knees from cold became important. After a ski accident I damaged my left bursa and wasn't able to ride for months, then after 6mo. went on a 500mile ride in the Rockies. I was religious to go easy every morning. Knee did ok. A year later after joining a racing club I got into race training and I learned immediately that if I didn't warm up very easily the left knee would get a twinge and I was soft pedaling for an extra 30min. If I pushed into a sharp pain I was pretty much reduced to riding at 75% max the entire day.

seems to me your goal is no longer riding "to x today" but riding pain free that day. If you can't ride pain free things aren't likely to improve.

staehpj1

I agree with LeeG that you may be riding too many miles per day the days that you do ride.

Personal preference, but I find that for me riding whatever mileage is comfortable and can be maintained every day works better than riding more mileage per day and needing rest days. If you are riding until you need multiple rest days you are probably riding way too much per day. It sounds like you are only riding half of the days on your tour. I'd try riding half of the daily mileage per day and skipping the rest days or at least taking only one a week. After you maintain that slower pace for a while and your knees are healthy again you can slowly build daily mileage if you want to.

I do take a rest day now and then, but generally only because I am somewhere worth taking a day off to see or do something fun. I find that most of the time it works better for me to ride at least a little every day, so I mostly prefer to take a short day or half day once in a while.

sandulea

It's interesting that you mentioned how getting out of the saddle alleviates the pain. I am in a somewhat similar situation: I have 2 "favorite" saddles, one that gives me back pain and one that gives me knee pain and numb butt, so I know that knee pain can be influenced by saddle design, shape and material. I also found that cycling shorts can give me a dull pain in my butt and knees sometimes, so I scrapped them and now I'm only wearing light, loose-fitting running pants. Stretching also helped, but only as long as I kept at it. I now do it religiously.

I would second the advice of getting a new saddle. Hell, get more. I now have 4 at home, and I could get more, budget and reason be damned. I can't decide which pain is worst to have, back, knees or bum, because so far I haven't found the holy grail that eases all of them. Maybe your body is similarly fickle to how the bum meets the bike, so spend some time in a bike shop and try out different saddles, even up to wide cruiser ones. Some people here might object to a wide saddle, but we're all built differently, and if you're having problems with such a popular saddle, then maybe the answer to your problem isn't a typical one.

However, as much as it pains me to do so, my ultimate suggestion would be to radically alter the tour, if not abandon the attempt altogether (that is, if a week or two of rest and trying the suggestions posted on the thread don't help you too much). I'd rather abandon a painful tour now than have all my subsequent tours be limited by knee pain and the specter of abandoning. I think I am past that point of no return because of youth and stupidity, but I'd hate seeing other people do the same mistake.

djb

certainly dont have any better recommendations than whats already been said, but I must say your seat photo does look weird. There's something funny going on there to have indents only on one side.

I thoroughly second Dougs recommendation about attempting to find an english speaking bike fitter, carrying extra weight and all really will show up and accentuate any fit issues (or as Doug mentions, leg length issues or whatever)

dont know your age, but you really dont want to do damage that can be with your the rest of your life, and damage that WILL show itself up as you get older.

bottom line, you get one body per life, so dont ignore an issue, make sure your bike is set up properly and dial things back.

*my first fully loaded tour resulted in a bad knee issue mid tour, it could have been a number of things
-too much weight on bike (I learned!)
-too high gearing for the very hilly area I was in (I learned about gearing too!)
-possibly because cranking down toe straps really hard and standing and really hammering it to get up some killer hills, possibly twisting motion in body plus completely immobilized foot by strap, ie no float or movement allowed.
-possible issues due to Biopace oval chainrings in vogue and on my bike

-never really having done so many hill climbing with a super heavy bike, my knees just werent developed enough, plus throw in the other stuff mentioned....

LeeG

That is a double whammy. Learning to climb hills and mountains on your terms and not the terrain is a learned skill for most, the mtns and wind don't care if a person blows their knees out. Put a big load on the bike and what could be a nice slow climb in a pretty setting becomes the equivalent of shoveling wet snow for hours. Only way to do a half days of hard physical labor day after day is slow and steady.

lhendrick

Purely my uninformed opinion: We don't know how old you are, your physical condition, your experience riding loaded touring bikes for long distances. We don't know your geometry, or your bikes. No one here can help you with this. You could damage your very delicate knee joints if you continue to ride, or you could start to improve. No way for us to know.

My advice. Find a great bike shop. Get a room somewhere. Have the bike fitted professionally. Have a doctor look at your knees. Rest a lot. Once you are cleared to ride again, start slow. Lose most of the weight (send it ahead if necessary). I rode 1800 miles last summer London to Budapest. First tour, loaded heavy bike. Almost killed me doing 100km days if there was any hill (I was following the river valleys).

The real adventure starts when the **** hits the fan and this is what has happened. Recognize that and react and you will have something great to remember.

It's your decision of course, but just plugging ahead is probably the worst option.

https://www.braceshop.com/braces-and-...FWVp7AodnAgAGQ

JDFLood

I really feel for you. I have occasionally had an issue with knee pain on long trips... but after fiddling with seat height I cleared it up in a couple days. I have been surprised how little an adjustment can make a difference. I then mark the spot, cause eventually something happens. Sure seem a mystery about your issue. Hope you figure it out.

Would be interesting, maybe of some value to hear some details about you and your experience bicycling... It might help some folks think of something.

LeeG

Agree

Wowk

Again, thanks everyone for taking the time to consider my dilemma. Made it to Lyon , so bunkering down here and seeking out some help here.

For those asking about mileage, I have dropped my mileage considerably. Often only riding 30mile days to try and protect my knees. Often doesn't help.

Hurrmie

Hi

Knees are a sod. Sounds exactly like what I have which is 'Plica Syndrome'. To cut a very long story short, I practice Bikram Yoga and use BIUS 1 Bioconform pedals. Which you can see here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3QjBanP8nEw

Let me know if you have any questions as I would be really happy to help anyone who has problems touring because of their knees.