Water purification
#26
Senior Member
I have not found taking a filter to be worthwhile on most US tours. That said there are places where it makes sense. On the Sierra Cascades route it was well worth it. It was very hot out but there were lots of ice cold mountain streams. Freshly filtered ice cold water was nice to have.
On the ST anywhere that there wasn't frequently available tap water there also was no surface water to filter.
On the TA I found little enough use for it that I mailed it home.
The new filters like the Sawyer mini or the Squeeze are light enough (about 2 and 3 ounces respectively?) that taking them along is more tempting. I have used both a Squeeze and a Mini a lot for backpacking and also on The SC and found them very trouble free. After long storage it sounds like a good idea to check them before a trip to be sure they are flowing.
The problems with the bags can be avoided if you handle them with care and carry a spare. I think folks squeeze them too hard. I have used them a lot and never burst a bag. I either squeeze gently or if not in a hurry hang them up and let gravity do the work
On the ST anywhere that there wasn't frequently available tap water there also was no surface water to filter.
On the TA I found little enough use for it that I mailed it home.
The new filters like the Sawyer mini or the Squeeze are light enough (about 2 and 3 ounces respectively?) that taking them along is more tempting. I have used both a Squeeze and a Mini a lot for backpacking and also on The SC and found them very trouble free. After long storage it sounds like a good idea to check them before a trip to be sure they are flowing.
The problems with the bags can be avoided if you handle them with care and carry a spare. I think folks squeeze them too hard. I have used them a lot and never burst a bag. I either squeeze gently or if not in a hurry hang them up and let gravity do the work
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,866
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked 281 Times
in
192 Posts
I switched to the Katadyne chlorine dioxide Micropur tablets which were very satisfactory when needed and much lighter and cheaper. The tablets are a superior replacement for iodine tablets without the awful taste. One tablet per quart or liter and wait 20 minutes before drinking.
On my canoeing adventures into the northern wilderness, I always carry my Katadyne Hiker water filtering system which sees daily use but much too heavy and bulky to consider for my touring.
Last edited by robow; 12-21-14 at 11:51 AM.
#28
Senior Member
I don't know how the Aquamira works, but years ago I bought a two-part system at the local outdoor shop. It may be the same as Aquamira.
The first part were the usual iodine tablets. The second part killed the iodine taste. When I read the label I discovered the second tablets were ascorbic acid, which I remembered from High School science class is simply Vitamin C. I could have saved a bunch of money buying Vitamin C rather than a incredibly over-priced "Iodine Taste Killer Tablet". I don't know if Aquamira is the same, but it might be worth checking out for those who use it.
The first part were the usual iodine tablets. The second part killed the iodine taste. When I read the label I discovered the second tablets were ascorbic acid, which I remembered from High School science class is simply Vitamin C. I could have saved a bunch of money buying Vitamin C rather than a incredibly over-priced "Iodine Taste Killer Tablet". I don't know if Aquamira is the same, but it might be worth checking out for those who use it.
#29
Senior Member
The new filters like the Sawyer mini or the Squeeze are light enough (about 2 and 3 ounces respectively?) that taking them along is more tempting. I have used both a Squeeze and a Mini a lot for backpacking and also on The SC and found them very trouble free. After long storage it sounds like a good idea to check them before a trip to be sure they are flowing.
The problems with the bags can be avoided if you handle them with care and carry a spare. I think folks squeeze them too hard. I have used them a lot and never burst a bag. I either squeeze gently or if not in a hurry hang them up and let gravity do the work
The problems with the bags can be avoided if you handle them with care and carry a spare. I think folks squeeze them too hard. I have used them a lot and never burst a bag. I either squeeze gently or if not in a hurry hang them up and let gravity do the work
#30
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
If you read their literature they only claim to purify "potable" drinking water which is a bit disconcerting. I'm not sure exactly why they aren't claiming to disinfect water but one study that was done seems to support the idea that the treatment is effective against a wide-range of water borne pathogens and is better than iodine and filters at eliminating the risk of ingesting something bad.
For municipal water treatment, chlorine dioxide is used as a polishing step to kill anything that gets through the filtration system. It's too expensive to use upstream of the filters. The same is true for backcountry uses. The Aqua Mira would be useful for places where the water quality is doubtful but you would still need to remove most of the organic material before use...and that means filtering the water beforehand. Since the filter removes most of the organisms to begin with, I'm not sure the use of the chemical treatment isn't just a bit of OCD treatment.
See here: Aqua Mira FAQs and here: Efficacy of Water Treatments study I have used it successfully (at least I haven't yet gotten any intestinal parasites) for the last 10 years backpacking and touring (and drinking from streams and lakes in Maine, Labrador, Quebec, and Ontario while doing so).
2. Why is AQUAMIRA considered a breakthrough in water treatment technology? Chlorine dioxide is a proven water treatment that has been used in hundreds of U.S. and European city water treatment plants for over 50 years. AQUAMIRA represents a breakthrough in technology that allows stabilized chlorine dioxide to be made available to consumers.
3. Is there chlorine in chlorine dioxide?
No, there is no chlorine in chlorine dioxide. Although chlorine dioxide has the word chlorine in its name, the two chemicals have completely different chemical structures. The additional oxygen atom radically changes the molecule and creates completely different chemical behaviors and byproducts. Their differences are as profound as those between hydrogen, the explosive gas, and hydrogen combined with oxygen, which creates dihydrogen oxide—commonly called water.
No, there is no chlorine in chlorine dioxide. Although chlorine dioxide has the word chlorine in its name, the two chemicals have completely different chemical structures. The additional oxygen atom radically changes the molecule and creates completely different chemical behaviors and byproducts. Their differences are as profound as those between hydrogen, the explosive gas, and hydrogen combined with oxygen, which creates dihydrogen oxide—commonly called water.
As for this claim
4. How safe is AQUAMIRA?
Water treated with AQUAMIRA is safe to drink on a regular basis when treated as directed. Other water treatment chemicals may create foul tastes and odors, and discolor water. Some chemicals, like iodine, chlorine, and other halogens, create potentially harmful by-products.
Water treated with AQUAMIRA is safe to drink on a regular basis when treated as directed. Other water treatment chemicals may create foul tastes and odors, and discolor water. Some chemicals, like iodine, chlorine, and other halogens, create potentially harmful by-products.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#31
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
The product is nice and light but if it fails, it's not of any use no matter how light it is. I simply can't suggest to anyone that they depend on this filter.
One caution: if you are filtering water downstream from farm fields, you might want to upgrade to a heavier MSR mini or Katadyn pump which has a carbon filter to remove toxic chemicals. Melted snow at mountain top, no problem; stream with run off from pastures or row crops, sicky-poo.
As for drinking straight from any stream I avoid it. Even here in Colorado, beaver poop in streams and, to quote the great W.C. Fields: "Don't drink the water, son. Fish fornicate in it."
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've used a Katadyn squeeze bottle filter which is a lot of effort but better than nothing. However, I'm now aware of heavy metal contamination in just about all the water sources, including municipal, in my area. Given the option I would prefer to take something that can filter out heavy metals, especially when touring areas with a long history of mining, heavy industry, factory farming, or coal-fired power plants. The pickings appear to be really slim there. The Waterman Mini is just about the only thing I can find, and that's mostly only available in Australia. Something like this looks useful: New portable water filter uses nanoparticles to remove biological and heavy metal pollutants : TreeHugger. Hopefully that kind of thing will make it to production.
#33
Senior Member
Cycocommute,
Thanks for the critique of the A.M. marketing propaganda. I'm very grateful you cut through the b.s. Any comments on the study that I linked to?
(Phil)ltowner
Thanks for the critique of the A.M. marketing propaganda. I'm very grateful you cut through the b.s. Any comments on the study that I linked to?
(Phil)ltowner
#34
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,467
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4335 Post(s)
Liked 3,958 Times
in
2,646 Posts
Since most of my touring is done on roads and near enough to decent water I am not super worried. Though if I were to get a filter it would either be a Platypus Gravity Works filter (for larger groups or more water) or a Katadyn Hiker pro. I have carried tablets for extreme extreme emergencies but I would try to avoid using them. I would also avoid some of the lightweight or less durable designs, stick with good proven technology and companies that put out a quality product and stand behind it.
The C&O canal water isn't the greatest but the iodine taste is very very weak and I haven't gotten sick but then again I try to build up some immunity and I happily drink tap water in most places.
Check your equipment well before your tour and store it properly. You never want to find out something just isn't cutting the mustard while out(unless it is a mustard cutter, then you are fine). Don't think because it worked fine on the last tour that things are the same.
The C&O canal water isn't the greatest but the iodine taste is very very weak and I haven't gotten sick but then again I try to build up some immunity and I happily drink tap water in most places.
Check your equipment well before your tour and store it properly. You never want to find out something just isn't cutting the mustard while out(unless it is a mustard cutter, then you are fine). Don't think because it worked fine on the last tour that things are the same.
#35
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
In natural waterways, greater than 99% of bacteria exist in biofilms.
But bacteria are large organism, relatively speaking. Filtration is enough to get rid of them.
We have found that the storage of filtration devices or long-term use on the trail can result in biofilm growth in the filter element that can render it useless. Most backcountry users—and manufacturers—have long assumed that filter failure is a direct result of filtering silty water. A valid reason, indeed. But they have ignored the effect of biofilm growth in the filter element, a more common-than-not means of filter failure in the absence of significant silt, soil, or undissolved organic matter in the source water.
This doesn't matter however except that the filter can become clogged. The bacteria doesn't pass through the filter...it's too big.
Chemical purification relies on an oxidant’s ability to destroy a pathogenic organism upon contact. A corollary of this is that as oxidant concentration increases, the kill-rate-per-unit time will also increase because there is more oxidant available to destroy the pathogens.
Hypochlorous acid is considered to be a better bio-film disinfecting agent than either [chlorine gas] or [chlorine dioxide] because of its ability to penetrate the biofilm matrix, whereas
[chlorine gas] or [chlorine dioxide] react more strongly with matrix components and may never reach the depth of the biofilm where active cells are found.
[chlorine gas] or [chlorine dioxide] react more strongly with matrix components and may never reach the depth of the biofilm where active cells are found.
They are correct that the chlorine gas, as well as the hypochlorous acid formed, and the chlorine dioxide react with the matrix that the biofilm has formed on. Therein is a large part of the concentration problem. All of these oxidants are indiscriminate. They react with anything that can be oxidized in the water mixture. If you have a bunch of twigs in the water you are treating (which also carries that biofilm), the chlorine and the chlorine dioxide will react with a component in the wood that is called lignin. Lignin in sapwood makes up about 18% of the wood but it is much higher in bark...about 25%. If you remove those twigs from the water, your chemicals will be wasted on that material. Even in "clear" water, i.e. water that appears to have nothing in it but hasn't been filtered, there can be microscopic bits floating around with biofilm all over them. That's going to suck up your chemicals. If your chemicals run out before you have killed all active organisms in the water, you risk drinking unclean water.
That's most of the reason why Aquamira is suggested for treatment of "potable" water. It's to polish the water after it has been through some other kind of treatment. I'm sure it does a great job and I have nothing against chemical treatments...as a secondary treatment. Filtering will get rid of most everything but viruses and the virus load even lower than the bacterial load in water. In certain parts of the world, filtering potable water and then treating it with a chemical oxidant would be a wise idea. The US and Europe have very good sanitation systems that keep most of the bad biologicals out of the water.
My job, by the way, often entails using chlorine dioxide to remove lignin from wood. I have to work with concentrations that are dangerous to humans because lignin can suck up a lot of chlorine dioxide. I've actually experienced a couple of the "puffs" I detailed above which are both thrilling and scary.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 12-23-14 at 10:53 AM.
#36
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
Check your equipment well before your tour and store it properly. You never want to find out something just isn't cutting the mustard while out(unless it is a mustard cutter, then you are fine). Don't think because it worked fine on the last tour that things are the same.
As for proper storage, I used my Sawyer filter once, as in a single time, as in not more than one, as in less then 2...this is staring to sound like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...and after that single use I stored it according to Sawyer's instructions. I back flushed it, let it dry and put it in the bag. What more could I have done? What more would you have done? Testing a water filter before a tour is on the same level as making sure your fork is working
There is a whole lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread about the Sawyer. Honestly, drying out the filter doesn't seem that extreme to me nor should I have expected the filter to become nonfunctional after a single use. I'm not the only person to experience this problem and, if I were to buy another Sawyer, I would test the damned thing before each and every trip. But I'm not about to buy another one because I would have to test it before every trip and I'd be worried if it dried out on me.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#37
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,467
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4335 Post(s)
Liked 3,958 Times
in
2,646 Posts
Do your really check all your equipment before a tour? Set up your tent, get out the sleeping bag, test the pad, fire up the stove, make sure your fork is working properly, etc.? Testing a water filter before a tour is on the same level as making sure your fork is working. I've had a couple of filters over the years and never had to "test" them before use.
Yes I do test my equipment or at least pull it out and do an inspection before packing it. My spork is a well used item that I keep in my pocket because I have found it handy in normal life not just for touring and hiking. I don't currently have a tent as I mainly use the hammock (but am planning on getting one and would probably set it up before I leave even if not for testing but for a refresh of set up) but I do inspect the hammock/accessories and if possible I try and set it up. If I had a filter I would probably at the very least inspect it and make sure it would still do it's job.
Basically stuff I use more regularly I don't worry about as much it is the stuff I use less that I make sure to test out or maintain as needed. My touring bike always goes in for a pro-tune a couple weeks before I leave just so everything is good and I can make sure to get some ride time in before hand.
However I was not specifically going after the Sawyer, yes my comment had some grounding in the issues people have had with theirs but was also just a general comment. I believe people should check their equipment, it is not something that is going to hurt anything and it refreshes you on setting up or working the device just so things are smoother on tour.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18354 Post(s)
Liked 4,502 Times
in
3,346 Posts
We do have giardia in some of the streams here in Western USA. I have a little pump filter that I take backpacking. It is lighter than taking a bunch of water.
I can usually carry enough water for a day trip, but would carry the filter for an overnight trip. However, I have been known to just get a cup of water out of what appears to be a fast flowing small, fresh water stream.
Giardia, of course, has a long incubation period, so you won't know until long after one is back home.
I can usually carry enough water for a day trip, but would carry the filter for an overnight trip. However, I have been known to just get a cup of water out of what appears to be a fast flowing small, fresh water stream.
Giardia, of course, has a long incubation period, so you won't know until long after one is back home.
#39
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
Yes I do test my equipment or at least pull it out and do an inspection before packing it. My spork is a well used item that I keep in my pocket because I have found it handy in normal life not just for touring and hiking. I don't currently have a tent as I mainly use the hammock (but am planning on getting one and would probably set it up before I leave even if not for testing but for a refresh of set up) but I do inspect the hammock/accessories and if possible I try and set it up. If I had a filter I would probably at the very least inspect it and make sure it would still do it's job.
Basically stuff I use more regularly I don't worry about as much it is the stuff I use less that I make sure to test out or maintain as needed. My touring bike always goes in for a pro-tune a couple weeks before I leave just so everything is good and I can make sure to get some ride time in before hand.
A further issue which will keep me from trusting hollow filters like the Sawyer again is that I live in a state where water evaporates quickly. I have no idea how long it would take for the calcium clogging issue to happen nor the parameters needed to make it happen but I'm not prone to leaving my water filtering equipment wet for extended periods. The whole biofilm discussion above has some merit. The best way to avoid build up of that biofilm is to not give it the conditions for it to happen. That means drying out water filtering equipment. If a Sawyer filter can clog on drying and need an acidic flush to re-establish a fraction of the flow (it doesn't all come back), I wouldn't want to depend on it for something a critical as water.
However I was not specifically going after the Sawyer, yes my comment had some grounding in the issues people have had with theirs but was also just a general comment. I believe people should check their equipment, it is not something that is going to hurt anything and it refreshes you on setting up or working the device just so things are smoother on tour.
To use a bicycle analogy, this is akin to putting brand new cables on a bike and not using it for a couple of months only to find that the cables had dissolved. It's not an expected, or even conceivable, problem.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 12-23-14 at 01:08 PM.
#40
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,467
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4335 Post(s)
Liked 3,958 Times
in
2,646 Posts
"Inspecting" is different from "testing". There is no way to determine if the Sawyer filter is malfunctioning by "inspecting" it. Even if that I would have known about the calcium buildup issue simply "inspecting" the filter wouldn't have told me if I had the problem or not. Even if I had "tested" the filter (without prior knowledge of the calcium buildup problem), dried it out and put it back in the bag, I could have caused the same problem because it happens when the filter dries out. I did "inspect" the filter to determine that all the parts I needed would be there. This is a not an issue that occurs all the time but it is known to Sawyer and a heads up in the instructions would have been in order.
I don't "test" stuff following storage because I don't put away broken equipment. If something is broken, worn or needs replacement at the end of a tour, I fix it, mend it or replace it. I'm make sure that I'm familiar with the operation of a new piece of equipment before I go using it on a tour but this filter was not something new. I had used it before hand and it worked well. Since the filter was in good order before it went into storage and since I had no reason to expect that the filter wouldn't come out of storage in the same order it went into storage, there was no reason for me to not expect it to work in the same manner as it went into storage.
A further issue which will keep me from trusting hollow filters like the Sawyer again is that I live in a state where water evaporates quickly. I have no idea how long it would take for the calcium clogging issue to happen nor the parameters needed to make it happen but I'm not prone to leaving my water filtering equipment wet for extended periods. The whole biofilm discussion above has some merit. The best way to avoid build up of that biofilm is to not give it the conditions for it to happen. That means drying out water filtering equipment. If a Sawyer filter can clog on drying and need an acidic flush to re-establish a fraction of the flow (it doesn't all come back), I wouldn't want to depend on it for something a critical as water.
Again, this is not something that anyone would reasonably expect. The filter came to me dry. I used the filter a single time and filtered clear water from a clear stream at 11,000 feet where there is zero mineral load. I was less than a mile from the headwaters of the stream and the stream flows over Colorado granite which is composed of feldspar and quartz...to minerals that have a very low solubility in water. I dried the filter prior to storage and had no reason to expect that it would be clogged with anything. I've used hollow filters before at work and they will go for years and years before even slowing down. There is simply no reason to expect the filter would fail after a single use.
To use a bicycle analogy, this is akin to putting brand new cables on a bike and not using it for a couple of months only to find that the cables had dissolved. It's not an expected, or even conceivable, problem.
I don't "test" stuff following storage because I don't put away broken equipment. If something is broken, worn or needs replacement at the end of a tour, I fix it, mend it or replace it. I'm make sure that I'm familiar with the operation of a new piece of equipment before I go using it on a tour but this filter was not something new. I had used it before hand and it worked well. Since the filter was in good order before it went into storage and since I had no reason to expect that the filter wouldn't come out of storage in the same order it went into storage, there was no reason for me to not expect it to work in the same manner as it went into storage.
A further issue which will keep me from trusting hollow filters like the Sawyer again is that I live in a state where water evaporates quickly. I have no idea how long it would take for the calcium clogging issue to happen nor the parameters needed to make it happen but I'm not prone to leaving my water filtering equipment wet for extended periods. The whole biofilm discussion above has some merit. The best way to avoid build up of that biofilm is to not give it the conditions for it to happen. That means drying out water filtering equipment. If a Sawyer filter can clog on drying and need an acidic flush to re-establish a fraction of the flow (it doesn't all come back), I wouldn't want to depend on it for something a critical as water.
Again, this is not something that anyone would reasonably expect. The filter came to me dry. I used the filter a single time and filtered clear water from a clear stream at 11,000 feet where there is zero mineral load. I was less than a mile from the headwaters of the stream and the stream flows over Colorado granite which is composed of feldspar and quartz...to minerals that have a very low solubility in water. I dried the filter prior to storage and had no reason to expect that it would be clogged with anything. I've used hollow filters before at work and they will go for years and years before even slowing down. There is simply no reason to expect the filter would fail after a single use.
To use a bicycle analogy, this is akin to putting brand new cables on a bike and not using it for a couple of months only to find that the cables had dissolved. It's not an expected, or even conceivable, problem.
I also disagree with not testing equipment when you put it into storage. Things can happen from something just sitting around. One should never put anything away broken and one should fix or mend broken stuff but you should double check it before you go.
For a bike analogy, it is like putting up a bike for a while and the tires crack and fall apart. They were fine when you put the bike in storage but due to various conditions your tires are in poor shape and the bike probably could use a tune up and maybe some brake pads.
A filter is subject to the same temp., humidity. light... changes that everything else is subjected to. It is unfortunate that those things happened to you but they can happen. That is really what I am trying to say. Unexpected things can happen and you want to make sure your gear is ready to go when you are. I understand it is a pain and maybe impractical to test something like that but it won't hurt you and could make the trip better.
I do understand your point about the cables but in that time those cables could rust or something might have gotten on them that corroded them away.(I work in a shop and I have seen that before) It isn't likely to happen but as I said above unexpected things can occur.
#41
Senior Member
Just a couple other things to consider before choosing what filter to carry...
The squeeze and mini each cost less than a replacement cartridge for most of the pump type filters, so if you need a new cartridge it is actually cheaper to switch filter types. My experience is the they last longer than the pump cartridges as well.
The squeeze and mini are light enough that if really paranoid about filter failure you could carry two and still be substantially lighter than most of the pump filters.
There are lots of factors to consider, but after using an MSR Sweetwater for years I have been really happy using the Sawyer Squeeze and Mini for the last few years. I find that for most tours a filter isn't really worth carrying, but when they are 2 or 3 ounces carrying one makes sense more of the time.
The squeeze and mini each cost less than a replacement cartridge for most of the pump type filters, so if you need a new cartridge it is actually cheaper to switch filter types. My experience is the they last longer than the pump cartridges as well.
The squeeze and mini are light enough that if really paranoid about filter failure you could carry two and still be substantially lighter than most of the pump filters.
There are lots of factors to consider, but after using an MSR Sweetwater for years I have been really happy using the Sawyer Squeeze and Mini for the last few years. I find that for most tours a filter isn't really worth carrying, but when they are 2 or 3 ounces carrying one makes sense more of the time.
#42
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
Now if something external happens in storage, like your house gets flooded or your children decide to play with the camping equipment or your dog chews the end of a stuff sack off, then, yes, I would say that the equipment would warrant inspection and even testing but just sitting in storage provided that it goes into storage in good condition isn't enough to warrant a complete test of all your equipment
The Sawyer filter has problems with being dried out. You can find all kinds of reports on-line from people who have had the very same problem I experienced. They all were as unpleasantly surprised as I was and none of them seemed to anticipate the problem. And, again, why would they? There is no reason to suspect that the filter wouldn't work. And, as I said above, since this is a common problem, what is to keep it from occurring while you are out in the field?
For a bike analogy, it is like putting up a bike for a while and the tires crack and fall apart. They were fine when you put the bike in storage but due to various conditions your tires are in poor shape and the bike probably could use a tune up and maybe some brake pads.
A filter is subject to the same temp., humidity. light... changes that everything else is subjected to. It is unfortunate that those things happened to you but they can happen. That is really what I am trying to say. Unexpected things can happen and you want to make sure your gear is ready to go when you are. I understand it is a pain and maybe impractical to test something like that but it won't hurt you and could make the trip better.
I do understand your point about the cables but in that time those cables could rust or something might have gotten on them that corroded them away.(I work in a shop and I have seen that before) It isn't likely to happen but as I said above unexpected things can occur.
Just a couple other things to consider before choosing what filter to carry...
The squeeze and mini each cost less than a replacement cartridge for most of the pump type filters, so if you need a new cartridge it is actually cheaper to switch filter types. My experience is the they last longer than the pump cartridges as well.
The squeeze and mini are light enough that if really paranoid about filter failure you could carry two and still be substantially lighter than most of the pump filters.
There are lots of factors to consider, but after using an MSR Sweetwater for years I have been really happy using the Sawyer Squeeze and Mini for the last few years. I find that for most tours a filter isn't really worth carrying, but when they are 2 or 3 ounces carrying one makes sense more of the time.
The squeeze and mini each cost less than a replacement cartridge for most of the pump type filters, so if you need a new cartridge it is actually cheaper to switch filter types. My experience is the they last longer than the pump cartridges as well.
The squeeze and mini are light enough that if really paranoid about filter failure you could carry two and still be substantially lighter than most of the pump filters.
There are lots of factors to consider, but after using an MSR Sweetwater for years I have been really happy using the Sawyer Squeeze and Mini for the last few years. I find that for most tours a filter isn't really worth carrying, but when they are 2 or 3 ounces carrying one makes sense more of the time.
And, if anyone asks for my suggestions, I'll tell them to stay away from the Sawyer. I may tell them to steer clear of any hollow fiber filter system.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,866
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked 281 Times
in
192 Posts
At least this thread's debate has been good for one thing, it made me rethink as to whether I had taken apart and dried out my Katadyn pump/filter when used last summer.
DOH!, it was still wet within and growing thingies?.......time to replace the pricey filter.
DOH!, it was still wet within and growing thingies?.......time to replace the pricey filter.
#44
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
By the way, since it was Christmas Eve and nobody wanted to get too involved in anything related to work science, my colleagues and I spent the day yesterday speculating about this problem (many of us are very outdoorsy because we live in Colorado...it's just another room with a spectacular view) and we've come up with a hypothesis of what is happening. We don't think it's related to any kind of calcium build up, considering that my filter never came with in 50 miles of a calcium source. This is some educated guessing and some wild speculation but here goes.
We suspect that the fibers in the filter are a cellulose ester that, once wetted and then dried, stick together and clog the hollow fiber. The reduced flow isn't because of calcium salt build up but because the tube is restricted. The fibers don't swell upon wetting with water, hence the continued lack of flow even when wet again. Flowing acid through the filter doesn't remove the calcium but swells the fiber and breaks down whatever chemistry that is going on to close the fiber.
Cellulose ester is a plastic made from cellulose. The most common example, and the highest usage, is filter tow for cigarettes but it is also used in making film stock...you know the stuff we grandpas used before the damned digital camera I don't have a lot of experience with the actual cellulose ester but I do have lots of experience with making the cellulose that goes into making the ester and it can have some weird properties related to water content and where the paper was made. These properties may translate over to the cellulose ester and may even cause more problems for me here than for others in more humid climates.
Cellulose goes through a hysteresis of strength and other properties based on it's water content at the time of production. I'll use strength as an example but other properties follow this same trend. A paper made, and dried, in a high humidity environment like the southeast US or northwest US has a certain strength. If you take the paper to a dry environment like Colorado, the strength property goes down as the paper loses it's moisture. If you take it back to the humid environment, it gains back strength but not as much as it originally had...that's a hysteresis.
Now if you make the paper here in Colorado and let it dry, it has a similar strength but the moisture content is lower. Take that paper to a humid environment and it goes through a similar hysteresis but the strength lost is less and redrying the paper results in a lower strength loss in the end. We should make paper here in Colorado but we don't have the trees nor the water for the process and the end product is too cheap to make enough money by shipping the trees here.
I believe that the problems I had with my filter are related to a similar hysteresis that is related to the difference in regional humidity. Our absolute humidity in Colorado is much lower than the absolute humidity elsewhere in the US. Our thinner air means the air can't carry as much water. Our relative humidity is also lower because we don't get as much rain on the lee side of the Rockies. Both of these conspire to dry out my filter more than places like Maryland or the Midwest. When I air dry cellulose, I end up with a moisture content of from 4% to 7% depending on the time of year (winter is drier). People in the eastern and northwest US have moisture contents double to triple the highest moisture levels I measure...closer to 12 to nearly 20%. When they "dry" their cellulose or their water filter, they have a higher water content which keeps the tubes from collapsing. When I "dry" my filter it really does dry out and the tubes pinch closed.
It makes sense that staehpj1 could use his filter forever without every experiencing a problem and that I would experience a complete failure after one use. I think the only way that I could keep my filter operational is to never let it dry out. That opens the door to biological issues which I'd rather not deal with.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#45
Senior Member
Interesting hypothesis. It sounds reasonable, anyone want to try to verify it?
That seems way more likely than calcium build up.
Assuming you are correct...
Starting with a working filter and keeping it in a sealed bag or capping the ends would prevent complete drying. On the other hand after use it probably takes quite a long time to fully dry so unless you will be in a very dry environment for quite a long time between uses I'd guess it is unlikely to be a problem.
That seems way more likely than calcium build up.
Assuming you are correct...
Starting with a working filter and keeping it in a sealed bag or capping the ends would prevent complete drying. On the other hand after use it probably takes quite a long time to fully dry so unless you will be in a very dry environment for quite a long time between uses I'd guess it is unlikely to be a problem.
#47
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,342
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,204 Times
in
2,358 Posts
Interesting hypothesis. It sounds reasonable, anyone want to try to verify it?
That seems way more likely than calcium build up.
Assuming you are correct...
Starting with a working filter and keeping it in a sealed bag or capping the ends would prevent complete drying. On the other hand after use it probably takes quite a long time to fully dry so unless you will be in a very dry environment for quite a long time between uses I'd guess it is unlikely to be a problem.
That seems way more likely than calcium build up.
Assuming you are correct...
Starting with a working filter and keeping it in a sealed bag or capping the ends would prevent complete drying. On the other hand after use it probably takes quite a long time to fully dry so unless you will be in a very dry environment for quite a long time between uses I'd guess it is unlikely to be a problem.
And, like I've said numerous times above, unless you know about the problem, you are in for an unpleasant surprise.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,182
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3455 Post(s)
Liked 1,454 Times
in
1,133 Posts
Do your really check all your equipment before a tour? Set up your tent, get out the sleeping bag, test the pad, fire up the stove, make sure your fork is working properly, etc.? Testing a water filter before a tour is on the same level as making sure your fork is working. I've had a couple of filters over the years and never had to "test" them before use.
As for proper storage, I used my Sawyer filter once, as in a single time, as in not more than one, as in less then 2...this is staring to sound like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...and after that single use I stored it according to Sawyer's instructions. I back flushed it, let it dry and put it in the bag. What more could I have done? What more would you have done? Testing a water filter before a tour is on the same level as making sure your fork is working
There is a whole lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread about the Sawyer. Honestly, drying out the filter doesn't seem that extreme to me nor should I have expected the filter to become nonfunctional after a single use. I'm not the only person to experience this problem and, if I were to buy another Sawyer, I would test the damned thing before each and every trip. But I'm not about to buy another one because I would have to test it before every trip and I'd be worried if it dried out on me.
As for proper storage, I used my Sawyer filter once, as in a single time, as in not more than one, as in less then 2...this is staring to sound like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...and after that single use I stored it according to Sawyer's instructions. I back flushed it, let it dry and put it in the bag. What more could I have done? What more would you have done? Testing a water filter before a tour is on the same level as making sure your fork is working
There is a whole lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread about the Sawyer. Honestly, drying out the filter doesn't seem that extreme to me nor should I have expected the filter to become nonfunctional after a single use. I'm not the only person to experience this problem and, if I were to buy another Sawyer, I would test the damned thing before each and every trip. But I'm not about to buy another one because I would have to test it before every trip and I'd be worried if it dried out on me.
#49
Senior Member
I still am pretty happy with my Sawyer filters and will continue to use them. My MSR Sweetwater needs a new cartridge and I doubt I will ever buy one for it.
I have used the Sawyers mostly in the dry west. I don't think mine ever got all that dry when on a tour or backpacking trip though, since it is usually in a plastic bag to keep the water segregated from the rest of my gear.
I was curious just how common the problem cyccommute reported was so I read all of the reviews of the squeeze and the mini on the REI site. There were a lot of reviews (somewhere between 150 and 200, I think) including a fair number of negative ones. The negative ones were mostly folks complaining about bursting the bags. A few were about trouble filling the bags, and a few were about the rubber washer leaking. I didn't see any about the problem he described so I have my doubts that it is all that common. The things folks were complaining about were all things I find I can deal with.
I have used the Sawyers mostly in the dry west. I don't think mine ever got all that dry when on a tour or backpacking trip though, since it is usually in a plastic bag to keep the water segregated from the rest of my gear.
I was curious just how common the problem cyccommute reported was so I read all of the reviews of the squeeze and the mini on the REI site. There were a lot of reviews (somewhere between 150 and 200, I think) including a fair number of negative ones. The negative ones were mostly folks complaining about bursting the bags. A few were about trouble filling the bags, and a few were about the rubber washer leaking. I didn't see any about the problem he described so I have my doubts that it is all that common. The things folks were complaining about were all things I find I can deal with.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
I have one of the UV water purification devices that I've used on backpacking trips. But I've never taken it along on a bike tour since my tours have always been on roads in areas where potable water is pretty easy to obtain.