Machka 

Actually I probably did this more as a teenager than I do as an adult.

DeadGrandpa

In a larger sense, does not spending and consumption cause other people to produce? The original post seemed to include the suggestion that all of us should be productive and contribute to society as a whole. I reject that premise on the grounds that society as a whole is not going to progress no matter what we all do.

Veganbikes suggested above that, "If we stop breeding and work on sustainability we can use less oil and not have these problems." This might be true if 100% of society adopted that philosophy and mission. However, based on what I have seen of society, it is absolutely not going to happen. The intelligent people may stop breeding but this won't help. Frankly, I don't have much hope for the future, and that's one reason why I go bike riding. Don't Buddhists tell us, "Look around you; in 100 years everything you see will have passed into dust, or torn down and replaced"? So what is this 'productivity' of which you speak? The concept seems a bit irrelevant.

Walter S

Personally I could care less. I'm probably reasonably productive. But if so its just a side effect of having a job and earning a living. I don't do that to be productive per se. I'm just putting dinner on the table. I see no great moral issue around it. And as soon as I think I can manage it I'll be living on the road and riding my bike and producing pretty much nothing but what I flush down the comode.

Rowan

In the US that might be the case, but there are many countries around the world that have preserved a lot of their historic cultural elements. When the US learns that old stuff actually can be used again and again, rather than be torn down, it might consume much less that it does now.

It seems I might be among the most productive posters here. I am involved in growing fruit -- food that sustains people's lives. And I bike tour in one fashion or another. What I earn from selling the fruit that is grown on the property where I work pays taxes so the less productive (and the bludgers) can live, too, plus I spread the cash around the economy both in my home country and in others.

Personally, I now think the thread has a divide in cultural understanding. I am going to take a leap here and suggest that the OP is of Asian origin, and that his family believe hard work and supporting family -- from great grandparents through to babies - comprise the productive essence of life, rather than dilly-dallying around the countryside as a bicycle tourist.

I think there is room for both philosophies.

mdilthey

I'm helping write the curriculum for an incoming spring class of 198 students, which I'll also be helping to teach. The class content is sustainable living, and reducing impact on food, water, and power systems. Can I be considered productive if I produce nothing, but improve sustainability in the lives of my students?

If those 198 students touch two people each in their friends and family, how big is their impact?

If I write about protecting rainforest resources and my published work has an audience of close to 3.5 million, am I one of the "most productive posters here" in terms of impact, or the least productive in terms of product?

"Productive" seems to be used as a synonym for "constructive." Taken literally, all my work is useless.

My point is, product alone may not truly cover the scope of positive impact of bicycle touring.

Dave Cutter

No. Production is production... consumption is consumption. But this is just semantics it doesn't get to the point of the post.

And THAT... may get to the point of the post. But opens a completely different can of worms. I believe "the intelligent people" you refer to realize that the whole idea of limited resources is simply a construct of the mind and is NOT based on real events or actual facts. The Universe, the solar system, even our planet is an endless supply of energy.

It is true however that as a people... we may yet be a decade... or a few decades to being able to exploit the vast energy resources at our fingertips. But have no doubt we have more energy available than can be used. The fact that many people can't wrap their minds around it... or understand it.. doesn't change the facts.

But that leaves mankind where mankind has always been. Learning to discard our fears and find joy. That... is way to scary for most. So they turn their attention to simpler tasks... and pretend those simple tasks have some greater importance.

I think there is room for many different views of reality. But this is way over the heads of much of the population. Most people can't separate religion from science. Or understand the difference. So people build paradigms as solid as reinforced concrete... but on foundations of superstitions and fake science. And then they panic when logical arguments chip away at their world view.

And in the truest sense of understanding the value of our lives on Earth. We all leave nothing behind. Life is about living... fully, fearlessly, and joyfully. Life is a gift to be appreciated.

prathmann

Most of the physical products may well be gone by then, although quite a bit of infrastructure survives over 100 years. But the knowledge that was developed to build those products remains and is generally needed to build the more technically advanced products that replace the earlier ones. That increasing knowledge base allows us to live longer, healthier, and in more comfort than any previous generation.

Walter S

Since the planet is a finite amount of matter, it will not produce an "endless" supply of energy. Granted, the potential energy is HUGE. But that does not mean that we will ever develop the technology to tap into it, much less in a sustainable way that protects our environment.

But energy is not all there is to it. I for one think that humans need a natural environment and space to live in and natural beauty to enjoy. The human population of our planet is growing out of control - mainly because of greatly reduced threats to life while people continue to pump out little ones. That can't go on. People talk about how technology will save the day and continue to inflate food production per acre, etc. But technology can't do everything. There are ultimate limits. For example at the current rate of population growth, in 9000 years there will be more people than the number of atoms in our sun.

I don't think technology is going to let us all upload our virtual selves into an atom where we'll all enjoy virtual bike tours.

Rowan

I don't think it's true that we leave nothing behind. For a start, there are memories. Then there are the written words that have survived milleniums; think the Bible and other religious scripts. Before the written word were cave paintings and carvings, Then there are scientific discoveries. The person who discovered the function of the wheel may be unknown now, but what s/he left behind has been vital to humanity as we know it.

Yes, we have a lot to regret, too. Problems that later generations may have to solve, or at least adapt to.

As to the rest, though, I think you are correct about life being a gift to be appreciated. It's a shame most people don't realise this when they are young.

Walter S

Or, like the last few generations, we live high on the hog at the expense of the next ones to come along who'll have to clean up the mess while solving their own unique problems too.

Dave Cutter

Well.... OK as the child's game goes.... NOTHING is truly endless. Our planet. solar system, galaxy... all have life spans as does our species. I expect mankind to be much more short-lived than the planet.

"Sustainable" life.... that only exists on this one planet?!?!? If mankind doesn't continue to grow expand and travel out to new worlds.... we die off like every other species before us. Fear of change and fear of the unknown.... is a death sentence for mankind.

I love bicycling as much as any human. But we can't progress into the future under just the power of our legs.

Dave Cutter

It isn't that way everywhere!!!! Here in America we have continually improved conditions for the next generation. Oh sure... there was a brief period in history where horse manure poisoned almost every water way. But cars fixed that. And a few decades where smoke for coal made fresh snow gray over night. But Nuclear and natural gas fixed that. But still life continued to improve. NO American generation has ever left things worse for the next generation.

Don't let your fear of the future rewrite actual history.

likebike23

Talk of all the smart people giving up breeding is silly. Are you saying that the intelligent should cede the world to the dumb? In the end, reproducing is the meaning of life. Not everyone will leave behind some monument to humanity's greatness or some lasting contribution to art. The thing average people can do is to raise and leave behind another human being to carry on our existence and culture. If the purpose of life was to punch the clock every day and produce some tangible item for consumption, that would be the cruelest joke ever. We are blessed with the ability to intimately connect with another and create a new life that never existed before. Everything else we do is simply to make our survival easier, more comfortable, and more enjoyable.

Dave Cutter

It would be awesome if we can somehow take our memories into the afterlife. I hope we can. But the written word? Even such sacred documents like many of the non-canonical books of the Bible... have been lost forever. I don't buy the idea that sharp edged stones [knifes], or strips of leather poked through holes [sewing], wheels, or fire... were individual inventions at all. It would appear that most such things were almost universally discovered.

I fully understand (and LIKE) the idea of human individuality. But realistically... we humans behave more like herds. What is that persons name... that "invented" bicycle touring... for instance. And why do so many people gravitate to cycling in groups. Or... why do so many cyclists tend to ride alone... to get away from groups of people.

I think it's egotistical to think we may have some "lasting" effect ether good or bad on the future.

Walter S

All species have a little slice of time. As do all individuals. As a species, our time has been barely average, and FAR less than quite a few living today.

But SO WHAT??? I don't feel a responsibility to see that the human race can live forever, even after the death of our sun, as I see discussed here and there. For one thing I think the idea is a bit short sighted and doesn't take into account what geological time scales can do to you.

But beyond all that, I'm just me. As I see it, I'm probably living the only life I'll live right now as I'm clicking away. I enjoy the feeling of leaving a nice place for my great grand children to grow up in. So I try to use resources wisely and cleanly towards that goal.

But compromising on the time I have for fun in this life (I'm living right now and never again) so I can somehow make the human race progress indefinitely, well maybe when I was younger. Now I just want to ride. The world you foresee without bicycles is one I'd just as soon not witness and hope I dont. Beyond that I lose interest.

Dave Cutter

The planet is doomed! It always has been. Mass extinction is a rich part of the planets long history and a certain part of Earths future. Having babies is NOT enough. If mankind fails to progress... and does not expand mankind to other worlds before Earths end... we die here with Earth.

We MUST learn to live life with the joy that comes from knowing that life is near it's end.... while we fearlessly progress forward in hope of surviving. Bicycling.... IS an embodiment of one of life's.

Dave Cutter

Yep.

In the Army... that was the same reasoning we often used. Just doing our jobs. Not our "responsibility" to see the bigger picture.

Yeah.... like that isn't just an innate human nesting reaction to the world that isn't much different than what other Earth creatures do?!?!

Whoa there buddy! I don't foresee a world of humans without bicycles. I foresee a planet without humans.

likebike23

Very true. I'm speaking in terms of our biologic directive. One thing I do believe is that we can't truly ruin the Earth, we can only ruin it as a place that's hospitable to us. If history has shown anything, it's that life will prevail in some form.

On a side note, if this was a troll post, do you all think the OP could have seen it going in this direction? A troll probably would have envisioned a bunch of chimps throwing poop at one another. Good job by the BF Touring forum

veganbikes

I never said anything about faking research. What I said is it was circular. They aren't doing any new research or working with other groups and researchers to figure out what has been done and what needs to be done so they aren't just doing the same thing over and over. I also believe I mentioned the fact the research is targeted at white americans mainly even though many of the folks afflicted with breast cancer are from other nationalities and races. If you have a bunch of groups doing research generally to a similar goal you would think they would share information and resources and not go around in circles.

Also regarding "all or nothing" I believe after this amount of time and the amount of money they rake in surely they would have something to show for it. Maybe it would take longer to cure it but it just seems like they have little beyond what they had when they started. Their idea of treatment generally starts and ends with chemo and for people with stage four it is just a big middle finger. It took a relatively few short years to build bombs that are still effecting Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It took Salk about 10 years to come out with a vaccine against polio back in the 40s and 50s. You cannot tell me with all the medical research and advances that have come out that none of this research has come close to cure for breast cancer?

We can 3d print food or parts to a ***, we can travel to space, we can shoot a missile from the comfort of an office chair all the way across the world and have a decent amount of accuracy, we can do major surgeries on people using lasers and robots sometimes without even the tiniest incision, so on and so forth but we cannot cure cancer?

Sorry for my cynicism about "fair trade oil" I haven't really heard much about it till now and I am cautious with any project like that. Seeing the oil companies over the years leaves me little hope. Plus I think we should add extra caution so we don't encourage more use of oil. People love it when they can feel like what they are buying or doing that is generally not so good or outright bad is now a-ok and certified so. I hope this does help folks in South America that all being said.

At the very least with my one handed keyboard I can address what you are saying instead of talking around it which you did for most of the argument ; )

mdilthey

As I said multiple times, I'm not "talking around it." I'm just not disagreeing with you like whoever you're used to confronting.

I do disagree with your cynicism regarding them not curing cancer. The best medical minds from all over the world, most of which are outside of Susan G. Komen, have yet to cure cancer.

You're trying to design a drug or treatment that can distinguish between cancer and non-cancer when both are made from living tissue with the same DNA as healthy, functional organs. It's not as simple as a virus we can vaccinate against.

veganbikes

You say you weren't disagreeing but you did basically apologize for them and try and make what they are doing ok. You never really addressed my points, hence the "talking around it".

I understand that it isn't easy to cure it and find treatments and drugs but once you spend so much time on something you should show some marked progress if nothing else.

mdilthey

Cancer Research Accomplishments | Susan G. KomenŽ

mobilemail

Followup question: Can bicycle tourers asked philosophical questions be productive? :-) :

Sullalto

To the op: Why wouldn't they? Any reason they shouldn't be?

Is bicycle touring constructive and productive? Who cares, it's a hobby.

Apparently: https://www.soe.com/status

Seriously surprised me. New MMOs are so much more approachable with instances vs camps, no 72 hour camps with 10% drop rates, etc.