Why get waterproof bags?
12-19-14, 12:58 PM
#26
Banned
Oddly Germany still like Making things there, US, now, seems to prefer off shoring Making things elsewhere for cheaper labor, and overhead
then taking the Margin as Profits in marketing and distribution ..
Exception is selling stuff to be paid for, in the end, by the taxpayers, then cost overruns rule the system.
then taking the Margin as Profits in marketing and distribution ..
Exception is selling stuff to be paid for, in the end, by the taxpayers, then cost overruns rule the system.
12-19-14, 03:25 PM
#27
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Yes, it is a little odd that there aren't more waterproof panniers on the market. I have Pacific Outdoor Equipment panniers, which have been excellent. Too bad the company folded! 1#14oz./20 liter bag. Very good attachment system.
Pacific Outdoor Equipment Bicycle Panniers: In Depth Review
Pacific Outdoor Equipment Bicycle Panniers: In Depth Review
12-19-14, 04:06 PM
#28
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In my readings on CGOAB it seems almost universally that water proof bags don't stay that way long and often times FILL with water and have to have drain holes put in them to get it back out, when waterproof and often get smelly without care. The most solid thing I had seen someone doing was using compactor bags for general items that needed to be dry, and ziplocks for critical stuff. My understanding was that a compactor bag folded in with a clothes pin is as waterproof and most things designed for it, and hold up really well.
12-19-14, 04:09 PM
#29
Senior Member
Well, you want to take anything people say on a forum about a product they own and like with a huge grain of salt also. Otlieb isn't the only maker of waterproof bags, but it is a very large player. That means in a discussion about Otliedb vs the rest of the world, you are going to get very little push back against Otlieb compared to push for it. There are dozens of makers of cordura whose owners are zoning out as this not being an attack on their product while every Otlieb owner is right in there comparatively.
A lot of successful products solve the one problem people fear, but otherwise have zero benefits. So people always buy say, variable power lenses or scopes because they don't want to be pinned down to the wrong focal length, but in virtually every other respect, weight, cost, complexity, fragility, moisture sealing, etc... These products are worse. This kind of choice is very common for consumers, and it needs a clearly defined and understood word or phrase, but I have never heard one. These are the everything-else-sucks products. Sadly not catchy. I am not saying that these are the wrong products for consumers to choose, but often it seems as though the consumers actually believe the products have no significant downsides.
In this regard Otliebs do suck, except for the waterproofness what are the benefits? Otherwise the Lada of panniers. Cyco is right about the attachment system, though it is another everything else suck option. But without getting into al the details, other than the waterproofing Otliebs would get laughed out of town if anyone else offered a similar product that didn't have the waterproofness. The mono bag, boardy hand, roll down closure, heavy, expensive, etc... bags they sell have no obvious advantage other than the waterproofness, and we do hear the odd person who has decided not to use them because they found they couldn't keep the swamp outside from forming up inside. But on waterproofness I think welded bags are better, but the issue isn't that, it is how crappy all the options are. Otliebs are just part of the problem that stops us looking for more fundamental solutions.
A lot of successful products solve the one problem people fear, but otherwise have zero benefits. So people always buy say, variable power lenses or scopes because they don't want to be pinned down to the wrong focal length, but in virtually every other respect, weight, cost, complexity, fragility, moisture sealing, etc... These products are worse. This kind of choice is very common for consumers, and it needs a clearly defined and understood word or phrase, but I have never heard one. These are the everything-else-sucks products. Sadly not catchy. I am not saying that these are the wrong products for consumers to choose, but often it seems as though the consumers actually believe the products have no significant downsides.
In this regard Otliebs do suck, except for the waterproofness what are the benefits? Otherwise the Lada of panniers. Cyco is right about the attachment system, though it is another everything else suck option. But without getting into al the details, other than the waterproofing Otliebs would get laughed out of town if anyone else offered a similar product that didn't have the waterproofness. The mono bag, boardy hand, roll down closure, heavy, expensive, etc... bags they sell have no obvious advantage other than the waterproofness, and we do hear the odd person who has decided not to use them because they found they couldn't keep the swamp outside from forming up inside. But on waterproofness I think welded bags are better, but the issue isn't that, it is how crappy all the options are. Otliebs are just part of the problem that stops us looking for more fundamental solutions.
The most important bag to be waterproof on my bike is the handlebar bag. It is the most used whether touring, daily riding or randonneuring. I bouoght a cheap, Ortleib pannier style bar bag with the roll-down top and another cover over the top. The roll-down aspect became such a pain in the arse that I cut it off; the second "lid" cover did the same waterproofing job admirably.
What the roll-down top told me was that it was a significant enough issue to put me off having Ortleibs with the same style of closure for panniers.
I now have a pair of Altura waterproof panniers made in the UK. They are heavy duty and indeed watrerproof, but have only a flap, not a roll-down system. They did excellent duty on our journey around the world several years ago, but frankly are overkill for short touring. I still have a variety of other panniers that are simple Cordura that have served me well in the past even though they aren't waterproof, and I have a selection of colour-coded Sea to Summit and other waterproof bags in various sizes that I organise my gear in.
The one concession I have made to Ortleib has been a handlebar bag that I picked up with my Bike Friday at the BF factory in Oregon. It doesn't have a roll-down top and so far I would rate it as 7/10... largely because I do have an issue with the wire system used to mount the bar clamp.
12-19-14, 04:25 PM
#31
Senior Member
It would be equally valid to prefer multi-compartment ones if they suit your personal preferences, but it really isn't a matter of one or the other being universally better.
BTW, I actually like the old fashioned style attachment with a couple hooks and a bungee just fine for paved road touring. I am fine with just adding a cable tie to keep the hooks from bouncing off if going off road, but a couple velcro straps are fine as is just attaching the hand loop from the left pannier to the one on the right pannier with a 'biner.
12-19-14, 04:50 PM
#32
Senior Member
The most important bag to be waterproof on my bike is the handlebar bag. It is the most used whether touring, daily riding or randonneuring. I bouoght a cheap, Ortleib pannier style bar bag with the roll-down top and another cover over the top. The roll-down aspect became such a pain in the arse that I cut it off; the second "lid" cover did the same waterproofing job admirably.
12-19-14, 04:51 PM
#33
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Last summer I met a gal that has been touring for a constant seven years, she figured her bike and one of her pair of Ortlieb panniers had 100,000 km on them. As far as I am concerned you can't find a better endorsement for panniers than that.
12-19-14, 07:31 PM
#35
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I use Ortliebs, Lone Peak and Carradice. Got all the bases covered. Prefer the large single pocket bags. Besides with a waterproof bag you can fill it with beer and ice! (been there done that!)
Aaron
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
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12-19-14, 11:14 PM
#36
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Well, you want to take anything people say on a forum about a product they own and like with a huge grain of salt also. Otlieb isn't the only maker of waterproof bags, but it is a very large player. That means in a discussion about Otliedb vs the rest of the world, you are going to get very little push back against Otlieb compared to push for it. There are dozens of makers of cordura whose owners are zoning out as this not being an attack on their product while every Otlieb owner is right in there comparatively.
A lot of successful products solve the one problem people fear, but otherwise have zero benefits. So people always buy say, variable power lenses or scopes because they don't want to be pinned down to the wrong focal length, but in virtually every other respect, weight, cost, complexity, fragility, moisture sealing, etc... These products are worse. This kind of choice is very common for consumers, and it needs a clearly defined and understood word or phrase, but I have never heard one. These are the everything-else-sucks products. Sadly not catchy. I am not saying that these are the wrong products for consumers to choose, but often it seems as though the consumers actually believe the products have no significant downsides.
In this regard Otliebs do suck, except for the waterproofness what are the benefits? Otherwise the Lada of panniers. Cyco is right about the attachment system, though it is another everything else suck option. But without getting into al the details, other than the waterproofing Otliebs would get laughed out of town if anyone else offered a similar product that didn't have the waterproofness. The mono bag, boardy hand, roll down closure, heavy, expensive, etc... bags they sell have no obvious advantage other than the waterproofness, and we do hear the odd person who has decided not to use them because they found they couldn't keep the swamp outside from forming up inside. But on waterproofness I think welded bags are better, but the issue isn't that, it is how crappy all the options are. Otliebs are just part of the problem that stops us looking for more fundamental solutions.
A lot of successful products solve the one problem people fear, but otherwise have zero benefits. So people always buy say, variable power lenses or scopes because they don't want to be pinned down to the wrong focal length, but in virtually every other respect, weight, cost, complexity, fragility, moisture sealing, etc... These products are worse. This kind of choice is very common for consumers, and it needs a clearly defined and understood word or phrase, but I have never heard one. These are the everything-else-sucks products. Sadly not catchy. I am not saying that these are the wrong products for consumers to choose, but often it seems as though the consumers actually believe the products have no significant downsides.
In this regard Otliebs do suck, except for the waterproofness what are the benefits? Otherwise the Lada of panniers. Cyco is right about the attachment system, though it is another everything else suck option. But without getting into al the details, other than the waterproofing Otliebs would get laughed out of town if anyone else offered a similar product that didn't have the waterproofness. The mono bag, boardy hand, roll down closure, heavy, expensive, etc... bags they sell have no obvious advantage other than the waterproofness, and we do hear the odd person who has decided not to use them because they found they couldn't keep the swamp outside from forming up inside. But on waterproofness I think welded bags are better, but the issue isn't that, it is how crappy all the options are. Otliebs are just part of the problem that stops us looking for more fundamental solutions.
Many of us who have Ortliebs (or similar bags) have tried the other alternatives and haven't found them to be much worse than the Ortlieb system. Personally, I find the problems you find with Ortliebs to be their strength. That they are waterproof is almost an added bonus.
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12-20-14, 01:17 AM
#37
Banned
.. The Bike Bucket - Bike Buckets drain hole in the bottom optional ..
recycle used buckets & DIY on the way they mount as You Wish.
recycle used buckets & DIY on the way they mount as You Wish.
12-20-14, 06:14 AM
#38
Senior Member
I agree. Again mine are not Ortleibs, but my primary reason for preferring waterproof one compartment panniers isn't the fact that they are waterproof.
I did initially choose my first ones for their "waterproofness" and subsequently tried non waterproof because I thought pockets might be nice, but after spending time with both on long tours, I found that I liked just about everything about the waterproofs and almost nothing about the non waterproof ones with pockets.
I did initially choose my first ones for their "waterproofness" and subsequently tried non waterproof because I thought pockets might be nice, but after spending time with both on long tours, I found that I liked just about everything about the waterproofs and almost nothing about the non waterproof ones with pockets.
12-20-14, 04:58 PM
#39
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For me, the best arrangement is: Waterproof Ortleib panniers on the front, & smaller, non-waterproof, non-water-resistant panniers on the back. I agree that waterproof & non-waterproof panniers each have their advantages, so I seek to enjoy a little of the best of both worlds.
Personal items like toothbrush, sunscreen, clothes & food go on the port side, where I can access them easily.
Camping & bicycle equipment go on the starboard side, so they're out of the way until I need them.
Personal items like toothbrush, sunscreen, clothes & food go on the port side, where I can access them easily.
Camping & bicycle equipment go on the starboard side, so they're out of the way until I need them.
12-21-14, 02:02 PM
#40
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In my readings on CGOAB it seems almost universally that water proof bags don't stay that way long and often times FILL with water and have to have drain holes put in them to get it back out, when waterproof and often get smelly without care. The most solid thing I had seen someone doing was using compactor bags for general items that needed to be dry, and ziplocks for critical stuff. My understanding was that a compactor bag folded in with a clothes pin is as waterproof and most things designed for it, and hold up really well.
IMHO the issue isn't either/or but work with what you got. If you have a mess you have to clean it.
if someone's Ortliebs are filling with water then it sound like someone is river rafting or filling them with water.
12-21-14, 02:37 PM
#41
Senior Member
I use an Ortlieb Classic handlebar bag and I like that it keeps things like wallet and electronics dry. But I really use it because the KickFix mount is very convenient and I like the single large compartment and small zipped pocket for valuables. The lid is a pain to close and the strap attachment is a bit annoying, but it still works well for me. Cotton Duck seems to be a good compromise between water protection and breathability, but it's heavy and old fashioned.
12-21-14, 09:27 PM
#42
Ortliebs: Simple fast and easy. Put dry things in, roll them up, no matter how much rain, everything remains 100% dry. Being waterproof is goodness.
12-22-14, 05:39 AM
#43
Senior Member
I use Ortlieb Front Rollers and a Frost River Gunflint Trail saddlebag. The
Front Rollers hold the camping gear which gets unpacked every night so compartments would be just a pain. The saddlebag is waxed canvas, I use it for clothes, keeping dirty clothes in a separate plastic bag. They all three work and keep stuff dry unless I don't close them properly.
Front Rollers hold the camping gear which gets unpacked every night so compartments would be just a pain. The saddlebag is waxed canvas, I use it for clothes, keeping dirty clothes in a separate plastic bag. They all three work and keep stuff dry unless I don't close them properly.
12-22-14, 06:50 AM
#44
Senior Member
No opinion on other products as other than Macpac (NZ) panniers, I've only owned/used Ortlieb Roller Classics and love them.
"NO" problems or issues experienced at all.
I'm a fair few extended tours in and observe no undue wear of the Ortliebs, so am expecting quite a few years use yet.
Tent and anything wet goes into my 32 Litre Ortleb Rack Bag (yellow like the rest). First sign of some dryness, everything gets hung off the nearest tree to air and dry.
I've toured extensively and none of my gear has any mould and all retains its waterproofness (from tent to panniers).
Hey, I've toured in the UK, Ireland and NZ, Australia and I say to hell with touring with panniers that are not waterproof (for me).
Being wet sucks and not being able to rely on your gear to keep your clothes etc dry would blow in my opinion.
"NO" problems or issues experienced at all.
I'm a fair few extended tours in and observe no undue wear of the Ortliebs, so am expecting quite a few years use yet.
Tent and anything wet goes into my 32 Litre Ortleb Rack Bag (yellow like the rest). First sign of some dryness, everything gets hung off the nearest tree to air and dry.
I've toured extensively and none of my gear has any mould and all retains its waterproofness (from tent to panniers).
Hey, I've toured in the UK, Ireland and NZ, Australia and I say to hell with touring with panniers that are not waterproof (for me).
Being wet sucks and not being able to rely on your gear to keep your clothes etc dry would blow in my opinion.
Last edited by rifraf; 12-22-14 at 06:54 AM.
12-22-14, 07:07 AM
#45
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I use Ortlieb Front Rollers and a Frost River Gunflint Trail saddlebag. The
Front Rollers hold the camping gear which gets unpacked every night so compartments would be just a pain. The saddlebag is waxed canvas, I use it for clothes, keeping dirty clothes in a separate plastic bag. They all three work and keep stuff dry unless I don't close them properly.
Front Rollers hold the camping gear which gets unpacked every night so compartments would be just a pain. The saddlebag is waxed canvas, I use it for clothes, keeping dirty clothes in a separate plastic bag. They all three work and keep stuff dry unless I don't close them properly.
Is that a complete camping set up for you? How do you mount your saddlebag?
12-22-14, 08:19 AM
#46
Senior Member
I like the set up with a large saddlebag and front panniers. I like having the weight distributed fore and aft and lowriders really help the bike handle well under a load. I'm not quite minimalist enough to live only with those though; a 20 liter saddlebag would probably do the trick for me.
Is that a complete camping set up for you? How do you mount your saddlebag?
Is that a complete camping set up for you? How do you mount your saddlebag?
Carradice
12-22-14, 08:19 AM
#47
Senior Member
I was just double checking and the Gunflint Trail saddlebag is 20 liter, the only bag I have seen larger is the Rivendell Large which is absolutely HUGE! It is supposed to measure out at 27 liters. I've seen them and am afraid I would carry too much.
Marc
Last edited by irwin7638; 12-22-14 at 08:39 AM. Reason: addition
12-22-14, 10:48 PM
#48
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I have used waterproof panniers a good bit and had absolutely zero problems with moisture in the bags. I do take some precautions though. My tent never went in the panniers so even if it was wet moisture from it would never contaminate the bags. I took care to either leave damp stuff out or segregate it in a plastic bag. I have not found it hard to keep things dry when packing or removing items with a little care and planning. Just put the things you will need next where they are easy to get to.
I think the bigger issue is not waterproof vs non waterproof, but rather number of compartments. Stuff can be kept dry easy enough either way.
As far as lots of compartments... I see more disadvantages than advantages. I much prefer to organize gear, food, and clothing in stuff sacks or ziploc bags within a larger single compartment. I find it easier to pack all my stuff in a given number of liters that way and also find it as easy or easier to find things once they are packed. Ever notice how lost things seem to be in the last compartment you open? That means the more compartments the more places to look when you forget where something is.
I have used non-waterproof panniers with pockets and they were OK, but the waterproofs definitely worked out better for me.
I started using dry bags instead of panniers in recent years with the same excellent results.
I think the bigger issue is not waterproof vs non waterproof, but rather number of compartments. Stuff can be kept dry easy enough either way.
As far as lots of compartments... I see more disadvantages than advantages. I much prefer to organize gear, food, and clothing in stuff sacks or ziploc bags within a larger single compartment. I find it easier to pack all my stuff in a given number of liters that way and also find it as easy or easier to find things once they are packed. Ever notice how lost things seem to be in the last compartment you open? That means the more compartments the more places to look when you forget where something is.
I have used non-waterproof panniers with pockets and they were OK, but the waterproofs definitely worked out better for me.
I started using dry bags instead of panniers in recent years with the same excellent results.
12-22-14, 11:03 PM
#49
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In my readings on CGOAB it seems almost universally that water proof bags don't stay that way long and often times FILL with water and have to have drain holes put in them to get it back out, when waterproof and often get smelly without care. The most solid thing I had seen someone doing was using compactor bags for general items that needed to be dry, and ziplocks for critical stuff. My understanding was that a compactor bag folded in with a clothes pin is as waterproof and most things designed for it, and hold up really well.
How does making a waterproof bag with a trash compactor bag inside of a 'breathable' one then solve the problem? Wouldn't the the inside of a sealed trash compactor bag just become the mold farm you fear?
Has anyone had wet clothing dry when carried around all day in a breathable bag? I personally have used breathable bags in the past and found that they let stuff get wet from the outside but do not breathe enough to let anything wet inside dry out.
I have a set of Ortliebs and they do have some drawbacks, but waterproofness is not one of them. My personal favorite bags now are my hard shell kitty litter panniers from TidyCats...
Last edited by dwmckee; 12-23-14 at 02:12 PM.
12-23-14, 05:52 AM
#50
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It appears that all manner of trekking gear has it's advantages and drawbacks. I cannot comment on a more personal level than to say that when you see the same things popping up in blogs over and over and over again from different people over terms of years then I start to account for the possible accuracy of them. Given the sheer number of posts, all the cross posting, and member base knowing each other so well over the years I really don't see CGOAB as an advertiser so much as just repeatedly seeing common issues in popular types of gear over it's intended lifetime and often beyond.