axolotl

BTW, there is no entrance fee to North Cascades NP in Washington state, and no entrance fee to Redwood NP in California. I have both biked and driven a car in each.

djb

About le ptit train due nord, it is paved from the top, mont Laurier, for about 90km 55mi, then crushed stone. At or just before the Tremblant area it is repaved for a bit, prob less than 10k, then back to crushed stone. The issues with frost heaves/ripples were in the first 50km I reckon, you just had to keep an eye ahead, but its a shame these issues are there, maybe its more roots doing it, I dunno.

Also there are very few areas set up for actual camping, and really its set up for people to use b+b's, hotels or local campgrounds (wasn't a huge choice of them that fit my daily distances).
I see this as more of a factor for not having a fee to use it, combined with issue of lots of people using it for here and there day use for short outings.

Gets back to the wider issue of encouraging people to do outdoor activities, with the wider societal benefits of this. Here in Quebec there certainly is an acceptance of cycling across a wide range of society, less of a mindset of "cars" only like you find in other places. This does tie in with this topic.
In theory I would have no problem paying some sort of fee to promote maintenance of a trail like this, but I do think that not having a daily fee does encourage people to get out more.
Perhaps the c+o trail is used less by day users compared to my example here on le Petit train due nord one.

prathmann

The figures you quoted for camping are not for the hiker-biker sites.
"Hiker/Biker Campsites
A limited number of sites at Apgar, Fish Creek, Sprague Creek, Avalanche, Many Glacier, Rising Sun, Two Medicine, and St. Mary are available for bicyclists and hikers. Sites are shared with a capacity of up to 8 people; larger groups must split up or use group sites where available. The fee is $5.00 per person per night for Apgar, Sprague Creek, Avalanche, Many Glacier, Two Medicine and Rising Sun. In the reservation campgrounds, St. Mary and Fish Creek, the fee is $8.00 for the first person and $5.00 for every individual beyond the first."
Bicycling - Glacier National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
$5 is also the per person-night camping fee for the walk-in campground (Camp 4) in Yosemite National Park that I use when riding there.

And I don't know where you got the idea that all NPS facilities east of the Mississippi are free. I've visited many National Park sites in the eastern part of the country such as Isle Royale and Sleeping Bear Dunes in Michigan, the Everglades in Fl., Mammoth Cave in Kentucky, etc. and have always paid an entrance fee (and camping charges as well) whether it was in the '60s and '70s or recently. An exception is in Washington, DC where many of the attractions run by the NPS are free.

cyccommute 

Not Great Smoky. Been there, done that. If you paid and entrance fee you were scammed.

cyccommute 

I stand corrected on the hiker/biker sites but that's on top of the $12 per bicycle (or hiker) entrance fee.

I've been to lots of National Parks run sites as well and never paid a fee of any kind.

Mammoth Caves: Nope. From their website:

You have to pay for guided tours.

Everglades: Okay but it's only $10 for a car and $5 for a bike.

Isle Royale is only $4 but it and Sleeping Bear are only technically east of the Mississippi. Perhaps a better measure would be on a line from Chicago to New Orleans.

The list of National Park service attractions where no fee is charged is a lot longer on the eastern side of the Mississippi then the west and we pay more. Great Smoky National Park, all the stuff around DC, the Dayton Aviation Center, Natchez Trace, the C&O and a whole host of others are free of charge. Not paying a fee to enter a National Park or National Monument in the west is very rare.

staehpj1

That just isn't true. Fees vary more with the type of park, attendance, and capacity than with whether they are in the East or the West as far as I can tell. National Park Fees List | National Parks Blog

I live in the East, but tour more in the West. I have not found that I typically pay less or have better facilities when in the East than when in the West in the National Parks.

I usually avoid touring in the East in part because it is much more expensive. That has more to do with state and private camping rates (often $30-40 with no special sites, prices, or other provisions for bikes) than with National park rates since stays in National parks are most often only a very minor portion of any of my tours. The exception for me was our ride on the Southern half of the Sierra Cascades Route where we stayed in several National Parks (Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite). We stayed a week in Yosemite. The facilities in all were nice in all three and the fees seemed roughly comparable to Acadia, Everglades, or Shenandoah.

prathmann

That hasn't been my experience. Lots of free NPS sites fairly local to me in California including: Redwood National Park, John Muir National Monument, Pt. Reyes National Seashore, Eugene O'Neill National Historic Site (incl. free shuttle and guided tour), Channel Islands National Park, Golden Gate National Recreation Area incl. Marin Headlands Park. And then there are the vast areas of National Forest Service land that are generally free to access and offer low cost or free camping opportunities. Overall I felt that there were far more free or low-cost outdoor opportunities after moving to the west than I ever experienced east of the Mississippi.

cyccommute 

I have to admit that I have had a wrong impression about fees in National Park properties in the east...except that I've never been charged to enter any one that I've visited. I've been to Hot Springs, AR, the Natchez Trace, I've ridden parts of the C&O, DC, Great Smoky, all around DC, Jamestown, and many others. I've never paid a fee at any of them.

If you compare that list to the list of NP properties by state, you'll find more free entries in the eastern states that the western ones. The list doesn't appear to be comprehensive either. There are 8 sites listed for Colorado (out of 17 properties but 4 of those are trails that cross private land) but they say that Dinosaur doesn't charge but the Dinosaur website lists a $10 entry fee. They also miss Bent's Fort. That's 10 out of 17 that charge fees.

From what I can see there are also few sites in the east that charge more than about $10 per car and $5 per individual (about what they want to charge for C&O) while in the western states $15 and higher are common.

Campground charges are typically $25 for NP campgrounds in 4 Corners region. I haven't stayed in a lot of NP campgrounds in the east but a quick look at the list, again, says that we pay more and we don't get amenities.


I live in the west and have toured extensively both here and in the east. I don't find state campground nor private campground rates to be much higher than those in Colorado. $18 to $20 per night is very much the norm in both places. The differences are that Federal and State campgrounds in the 4 Corners area almost never have running water and never have showers. I can think of maybe 3 government campgrounds in Colorado that have flush toilets and none of those are NP facilities. All three are around Lake Granby which is on the edge of Rocky Mountain but not in it.

The proposed fees for the C&O aren't extravagant nor out of keeping with what we have paid here for ages. If we don't want to tax ourselves as a nation to pay for these facilities, then we have to do something to keep them out of the hands of Disney.

axolotl

I was incorrect about Great Smoky Mountains NP fee (but correct about fees being assessed at Shenandoah NP and at the Great Falls, MD entrance to the C&O Canal park). I found the following explanation about the no fee policy at Great Smoky Mountains NP to be interesting:

from Why No Entrance Fee? - Great Smoky Mountains National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Why No Entrance Fee?
The reasons for free entry to the national park date back at least to the 1930s. The land that is today Great Smoky Mountains National Park was once privately owned. The states of Tennessee and North Carolina, as well as local communities, paid to construct Newfound Gap Road (US-441). When the state of Tennessee transferred ownership of Newfound Gap Road to the federal government, it stipulated that "no toll or license fee shall ever be imposed…" to travel the road.

At that time, Newfound Gap Road was one of the major routes crossing the southern Appalachian Mountains. It's likely the state was concerned with maintaining free, easy interstate transportation for its citizens. North Carolina transferred its roads through abandonment, so no restrictions were imposed.

Action by the Tennessee legislature would be required to lift this deed restriction if Great Smoky Mountains National Park ever wished to charge an entrance fee.

And if anyone is still doubting that fees are presently charged at the Great Falls, Maryland, entrance to the C&O Canal, here's proof; there has been a fee at this entrance for many years:

Fees & Passes - Chesapeake & Ohio Canal National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Entrance fees are only collected at the Great Falls Entrance Station. Over 80% of the fees collected are returned to the park for specific projects. All other access to the park is free.

axolotl

BTW, I imagine the reason for fees at Great Falls (MD) at the C&O Canal is that it attracts a large concentration of visitors, and almost certainly has the largest parking lot for any place along the C&O Canal. Logistically, it would/will be very difficult to actively charge visitors to a narrow park which is 184 miles long, and which has dozens, and perhaps even more than a hundred different access points. That's why an NPS official said on the radio this week regarding proposed new fees for the C&O Canal: "much of the enforcement would be based on the honor system."

jamawani 

In the interest of accuracy, from the Glacier NP website -

Hiker/Biker Campsites
A limited number of sites at Apgar, Fish Creek, Sprague Creek, Avalanche, Many Glacier, Rising Sun, Two Medicine, and St. Mary are available for bicyclists and hikers. Sites are shared with a capacity of up to 8 people; larger groups must split up or use group sites where available. The fee is $5.00 per person per night for Apgar, Sprague Creek, Avalanche, Many Glacier, Two Medicine and Rising Sun. In the reservation campgrounds, St. Mary and Fish Creek, the fee is $8.00 for the first person and $5.00 for every individual beyond the first.

Bicycling - Glacier National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

<<<>>>

Thus, the basic, hiker/biker fee per person per night is $5.
I have written to have the $3 extra "reservation" fee removed from the hiker/biker costs at Fish Creek and St Mary without success.

tandempower

Between inflation and blocking the ability to hike/bike camp freely over long distances for extended periods of time, the net effect is to trap people into continue submitting to paid employment. If you just want to work a little and get more free time to hike/bike/camp or you want to retire early or take leaves of absence from work to hike/bike/camp on the cheap, this will limit your ability to travel.

The thing that is so terrible about this is that most people who are complaining about the economy not providing enough jobs and income are not hiker/biker/campers. They are people who want to drive around in cars, stay in hotels, motels, and drive-in campgrounds. They want more money to do those things, which require more labor to produce for their consumption. So they squeeze it out of hikers/bikers, which forces us into serving their economic wants. And if we don't want to serve their greedy, destructive economy, they will toll-booth us into staying home (in our cells).

It is a horrible erosion of freedom and if you complain, people will just tell you that your in the minority and most people want the economy you don't (with the implication that you must submit to it for that reason). At some point the ethic of freedom over economic-stimulus will return and it will be sad to see the violent conflicts that ensue. Wouldn't it be nice if these opposing ideologies could find some middle-ground where the economic-stimulists could respect the freedom to use public land and find other ways to pursue economic objectives besides limiting others' freedom?

tandempower

Between inflation and blocking the ability to hike/bike camp freely over long distances for extended periods of time, the net effect is to trap people into continue submitting to paid employment. If you just want to work a little and get more free time to hike/bike/camp or you want to retire early or take leaves of absence from work to hike/bike/camp on the cheap, this will limit your ability to travel.

The thing that is so terrible about this is that most people who are complaining about the economy not providing enough jobs and income are not hiker/biker/campers. They are people who want to drive around in cars, stay in hotels, motels, and drive-in campgrounds. They want more money to do those things, which require more labor to produce for their consumption. So they squeeze it out of hikers/bikers, which forces us into serving their economic wants. And if we don't want to serve their greedy, destructive economy, they will toll-booth us into staying home (in our cells).

It is a horrible erosion of freedom and if you complain, people will just tell you that your in the minority and most people want the economy you don't (with the implication that you must submit to it for that reason). At some point the ethic of freedom over economic-stimulus will return and it will be sad to see the violent conflicts that ensue. Wouldn't it be nice if these opposing ideologies could find some middle-ground where the economic-stimulists could respect the freedom to use public land and find other ways to pursue economic objectives besides limiting others' freedom?

staehpj1

My observation is that:

1. For the most part folks riding and camping on the C&O are not travelling "freely over long distances for extended periods of time". They are using the C&O as a short destination vacation and get there by car or sometimes airplane and get back to the start using motorized transportation.
2. Folks who actually are "hike/bike camping freely over long distances for extended periods of time" are out there crossing the country (or travelling in other countries) and a lot of them are spending next to nothing for camping or in some cases nothing at all. Many people cross the US every year averaging $5 or less per day for camping. It isn't hard to do, I have done it myself. Charging for camping on the C&O will have no effect on people's ability to do that since most of the folks doing long tours do not rely on places like the C&O, GAP, or the Katy trail and most people who ride the C&O or similar are not doing long tours.

tandempower

I'm not familiar with this exact route but even if the users aren't going long distances for extended periods of time, fees like this can deter you from biking as intercity transportation over medium distances.

Let's say I want to travel between 50 and 200 miles by bike, to visit a family member for example. Now let's say I work a part time job or otherwise have low income so that I can get more time to ride and travel. Not having a car and biking saves automotive costs but the moment you're spending $10+ per night on a trip that you could do in one day by car without an overnight stay, the incentive to get a car and drive just went up.

Multi-day trips, even for weekends over short distances, by bike should cost less than driving. It uses less resources, including lane-space and land, to travel in this way. There is no reason it should be cheaper to drive in a single day than bike over a few days. It just doesn't make any sense.

djb

for any of you who live near this area or have ridden on it, is it more of a day ride thing or people who ride the entire trail? Or are there areas that are predominantly day users, like I mentioned on the Quebec trail, more day users in the immediate area closer to the start of the trail in cottage country (and also not a long drive from Montreal--like I have done a few times, drive for 45 mins or so, park, bike for 3 or 4 hrs or whatever and come back to car, drive back to Montreal)?

another thing I thought of is that the proposed $20 camping fee is probably highballed intentionally, anticipating a ruckus, and could/will be brought down to a lower price. It seems most people will argue that $20 for a rustic site with no running water etc is not worth it, I personally would just wild camp somewhere and spend the money in a local grocery store or restaurant.

again, comes down to using common sense of not wanting to reduce users which in turn reduces money going into local economies.

staehpj1

There are a lot of folks there for the day or a few hours especially on the part near Washington DC. There are a smaller number folks who ride the whole trail as a vacation type trip. Probably most folks there drove there in either case. There probably are some who use a portion of it as part of a commute though.

It may be that they are high balling it. $10 would seem more appropriate to me and possibly that could be the plan.

edthesped

I realize it isn't the C&O but approx 10 miles of the GAP is part of my warm weather daily commute, I'm sure the C&O is used the same way by others.

axolotl

There's only a very short stretch which is used by many commuters. For the last couple of miles as the C&O Canal towpath approaches Georgetown in DC, the towpath is parallel and just a few feet from the paved Capital Crescent Trail, which also ends in Georgetown. The Capital Crescent is very heavily used by bike commuters. There is a short stretch of the towpath between Chain Bridge (which connects Virginia to DC near the Maryland line), to where the towpath and Capital Crescent become parallel. Cyclists going to and from Chain Bridge typically switch over to the paved trail. There are stairs connecting Chain Bridge to the C&O Canal towpath.

capejohn

If your 62 or better, not to worry. A lifetime pass to all national park will set you back $10.

CLICK HERE for the information.

staehpj1

Best $10 I ever spent

prathmann

Except for Isle Royale National Park.

My daughter's analysis of the Senior Pass was that since the NPS normally charges $80/year for a park pass but only $10/lifetime for mine that their estimate of my remaining lifetime must be very short.

capejohn

If the speed of the last 60 some odd years is any indication, the end is near.

capejohn

[QUOTE=staehpj1;17476334]My wife got one a few short years ago. Since she doesn't bike tour I need to make the plunge this year and get one for myself. With that, our lifetime pass has doubled in price. The government is bleeding us dry.

Philly Tandem

I'm from Pennsylvania, and have ridden the C&O the entire length (Cumberland to DC) as a three-day tour, camping one night and one night in a hostel (CGoaB journal at https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/cando-tour). I've also done day rides on it when down in D.C. on business or leisure, and also an overnight with my family. Fees wouldn't discourage another through-bike for me. They would discourage a short, day or less ride and I'd likely go ride one of the other nice trails in the area instead.

Anticipating fee hikes, in December we bought the $80 nationwide pass that's good through the end of 2015.

BTW, many of the National Park units in the east are not actually parks (which typically charge fees), but National Historic Sites or even National Recreation Areas, which are hit or miss with fees. In December we paid an entrance fee for Jamestown Nat Historic Site in Virginia, but not for the "Stonewall Jackson Shrine" (where he died in Virginia). This weekend we wandered around Philly's Independence Nat Historic Site, which is mostly free except for the "Ben Franklin Museum" in the park. Valley Forge is free, as is Delaware Water Gap NRA in PA/NJ. Shenandoah Nat Park (Va.) is not, nor is Acadia Nat Park (Maine) or Assateaque Nat Seashore (Md.). NPS units on the National Mall in D.C. are free (for now), although you have to get timed tickets for the Washington Monument (I can see them charging for this sooner or later). Some parks that are technically free will charge "Expanded Amenity Fees," which are basically user fees in a not-so-clever guise.