veganbikes

Well said! winky smiley face, clinking beer mug smiley faces!

350htrr

But you are doing exactly the same thing you accuse people like me of doing... You are basically saying you have elevated yourself to the point where you believe everything living is equal, thus it goes without actually saying that anyone not following that rule must therefore be lesser, even bad, like the KKK for instance.

NeilGunton

I wondered if anyone would catch that, well done. You are right about the fly, though with the dog chase, the "it" referred to the chase, not the dog. But still, you are correct that sometimes an "it" can creep into conversation, with no disrespect intended. Perhaps that is how the OP meant it, and perhaps veganbikes jumped on his post too quickly, I don't know. I often refer to flies here at home as "someone", e.g. "there's someone flying around the living room, I better go let him out". I guess some would criticize my assumed use of "him" as sexist (why not "she"?), but whatever. These discussions can go down the rabbit hole pretty quick, maybe this is already there. I jumped in because I saw it was getting interesting in some of the attitudes it was revealing towards animals, and while I usually try to stay out these days, sometimes I just want to have one more wade into that swamp, don't ask me why. In any case, I think veganbikes was probably too hasty with his (I assume it's a he, heh) criticism, but I also agree with many of his general views expressed later on, though not particularly with the somewhat abrasive way in which he expressed some of them - coming off like you're looking down on people, telling them they are wrong and evil etc is elitist - exactly why many hate those in the animal welfare movement. Even if you agree with those views, it really doesn't help anything to talk that way, it just tends to alienate and polarize even more. So that's part of why I posted here, to try to explain where these ideas are coming from, without demonizing anyone. The comparison with slavery, racism etc is an easy one to misinterpret, as this thread has demonstrated. But I am sad that even though I have gone to some effort to explain, the response has been to ignore or disparage, rather than engage with ideas in return.

Is civil debate dead? Give and take, disagreement without rancor? When I originally started developing websites back in the mid-90's, I imagined debating people across the world on the forums, exchange of ideas and soaring repartee, and the vision was intoxicating. The reality has proved somewhat different. But anyway, since this is already probably too many words for some, I will call it a day now.

350htrr

I think I do understand what you are saying, but I don't agree that just because humans think animals are lesser and use animals for their "benefit" automatically means those that do, are doing bad in general. It's the way it is in the animal kingdom which we are a part of dispite some civilized veneer most of us have, that now is being expanded from treating animals decently to treating them equal... I treat my dog decently but not as an equal so that makes me a bad person? 50 years ago treating your dog decently made one a good person the way I remember it.

fietsbob

but that "today" was a Month ago.. 2/22/15

Let sleeping Dogs Lie.

Walter S

That's just fine to have your dog protect you from intruders as long as such protection also occurs on your property. As soon as your dog comes into the road messing with me, you've crossed the line. Now you're infringing on my right to travel freely on public land.

It's up to the owner to control the dog. If that's difficult then too bad.

onbike 1939

Indeed there is an art to debate.... but unfortunately you have yet to discover it.

By posting these monolithic pieces of turgid prose, you do tend to reduce your readers to a comatose state by the tedium of winnowing through the reams of words in search of something of value. I fear this is very much a question of "never mind the quality...feel the width".

It is possible to exchange ideas in a way that informs and amuses the reader but this I'm afraid, you have yet to master.

As Shakespeare says:

"Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief.”

bikemig 

+ 1.

NeilGunton

Shakespeare? Wow, I'm flattered that my reply prompted such a literary spasm. Shame you didn't actually address any of my arguments, but whatever - you made a point that the peanut gallery could stamp their feet to, so it's good, right?

Ok, you want brief, here's brief:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I'm sorry I don't have a handy bard quote at hand for my grand exit, but something about bidding adieu will have to suffice. Bye.

Neil

Pynchonite

See, it's all about genre. Can't get too fancy here. Get in, get out, keep moving.

So: there are no useful moral distinctions between non-human animals and human animals. Language matters (try saying the "N" word as a white guy in America anywhere). Veganbikes is just a little tone deaf.

Also, I've found sheep dogs to be much scarier/bigger than farm dogs. They're usually larger and more confrontational, though they "let go" quicker as long as you keep moving.

onbike 1939

Not a "spasm" really, I just happen to have had a reasonable education and the quote was relevant I believe.

As to your thinking that my post is "ad hominem", that would be incorrect. Direct....certainly, but aimed only at your method of communicating and not any criticism of yourself.

As for those arguments which I've ignored, this then is my point. To reach those arguments would mean hacking through the impenetrable undergrowth of verbiage that you've constructed and I lost the will to live long before that.

This is the "lively exchange of ideas" you craved, and hopefully "crafted" in a way which I hope will "stimulate and broaden the mind".....if it doesn't do that then I've failed.

GravelMN

In the last few miles of a training ride on my mutt bike, I was tired and facing a mild headwind. I passed a farm that I had passed many times before and guess who got a new German Shepard? The young adult male came blazing across the yard. Luckily the ditch was full of water so he had to run an extra 100-yards or so parallel to me before he came to the driveway to cross. By that time I had put on enough speed to get out in front of him and he gave up quickly, but if that ditch had been dry it would have been a close call.

His body language read more out for a chase or running me out of his territory than attack, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have ended in a bite or crash. I love dogs, but dang I wish some owners were more responsible. Obviously I'm concerned with my own safety, but also that of the dog who ran out onto a highway focusing on me rather than on other traffic.

veganbikes

I never said things were equal (also things are non-living), I said living beings are equal or at least deserve equality. I would say defending racism, sexism or speciesism is abhorrent and that people at this point and time in history with all we have been through and seen should have moved past that. Granted I understand it is a difficult thing but it is something we must do for the betterment of the entire planet. I don't wish to see anyone as a lesser but simply as people who have yet to change but who can change.

However I do believe that racism, sexism and speciesism are lesser ideologies that need to end but I know the people who practice those ideologies can evolve. I have known a bunch of hardcore racists who belonged in skinhead gangs and had racist/fascist tattoos head to toe and are now avowed anti racists, I have a friend who was a hunter and is now a great advocate for animal rights... plenty of stories but the moral of all of them is you can change and learn from the past and move forward to the future.

350htrr

I think you need to go back to school and take an English refresher course (assuming you have finished school, if not pay mare attention in English class). calling living things "it" doesn't infer racism, sexism, speciesism let alone make you one of these..

EDIT; Maybe get a job on a farm for a few months, learn about animals in real life...

SimonSan

+1 Totally agree, Let us all use the English language correctly even if Humanize is spelled with z or s

pbekkerh

US or UK, I just wish they could agree on the spelling ;-)

Humanize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of ?humanize? | Collins English Dictionary

veganbikes

Mare attention? You mean like horses? Do they pay some sort of special attention to the english language? Cool, that is something I didn't know, always fun to learn new facts about horses ; )

Again things are not living calling a thing. "it" is perfectly fine. I am talking about not calling a fellow living being an "it".


Ahhh yes learn about animals in real life...good one! I guess working at sanctuaries and meeting many animals throughout my life does not count. If I go to a place where animals are commodities and their lives are at least somewhat unnatural, I will truly learn about animals. I could also go the speak and spell route like most folks and gets my animal knowledge on that way...LOL!

Anywho I wasn't planning on posting much I just needed help on a new jockey wheel for my old D.A. 7400 rear derailleur because mine is worn out and making shifting no bueno so I will start on that journey forthwith!

QtoC

My dog is more human than most people.

He even knows how to play soccer:




see?

woodysroad

With some hesitancy I venture the humble opinion that while people discuss pronouns little children are still going to bed hungry at night, wars are being fought, politicians are still lying, and dogs are still chasing cyclists; while the world is no closer to solving any of those problems than we have ever been. I think I will go for a bike ride and look at flowers blooming here in Mobile, AL. It's a good day to be alive