Tried out a Rivendell today...
03-30-15, 06:17 PM
#51
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03-30-15, 06:18 PM
#52
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besides, it's probably a non-issue, seeing as how it's difficult to get much leverage on a stem and handlebar when it's up by your ears. 
03-30-15, 07:20 PM
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I don't favor rivendells. I don't have much interest in buying one and from a strictly esthetic perspective, I don't care much for how they look.
I just can't stand passive aggressive posters who have very clear biases but refuse to state them or even acknowledge them, pretend to be objective, and act as if they are enthusiastically passing along information about a test ride.
I just can't stand passive aggressive posters who have very clear biases but refuse to state them or even acknowledge them, pretend to be objective, and act as if they are enthusiastically passing along information about a test ride.
03-30-15, 08:28 PM
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i've often thought about this labeling fad called passive/aggressive. because it always seems to be used in a contemptuous and disapproving manner, i assume the label-er would prefer that their subject be either passive or aggressive.
BTW, make no mistake, this is a direct and unambiguous criticism.
BTW, make no mistake, this is a direct and unambiguous criticism.
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 03-31-15 at 03:51 AM.
03-30-15, 09:59 PM
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My first bike had lugs, well the first decent one. 10 speed touring bike at the time. It's just how they put bikes together when they didn't know any better. It isn't high or low end unless the person doing it works in one or the other direction. I like the look also, but it doesn't make up for badly designed frames. I think a few of the designs are hanging on by their finger tips. I'm a big rider, and I just don't get the double top tube.
03-30-15, 10:48 PM
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^^^
Exactly. I never hammer on a touring bike so even if my quill stem has some flex it would never be noticed.
I'm wondering if the flex noticed by Max originated from the tall aluminum riser on the Nitto stems typically used by Rivendell. The BG stems are chrome moly, have short risers and height is achieved by the angle of the horizontal section.
Nitto- https://goo.gl/LSojPN
BG- https://goo.gl/7YLRv2
Exactly. I never hammer on a touring bike so even if my quill stem has some flex it would never be noticed.
I'm wondering if the flex noticed by Max originated from the tall aluminum riser on the Nitto stems typically used by Rivendell. The BG stems are chrome moly, have short risers and height is achieved by the angle of the horizontal section.
Nitto- https://goo.gl/LSojPN
BG- https://goo.gl/7YLRv2
For touring vertical adjustment is good, it would be even better if it worked like seats on those MTBs that go up and down with a spring and a quick release. Current bike is threaded, but the bike I am building is threadless. I do think threadless are overall better, but it isn't all that clear on a touring bike.
03-30-15, 11:04 PM
#57
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Nun is right. We're talking about bikes here. I snapped at Max. I'm sure he's not losing any sleep over this stupid forum, but I just want say that I'm sorry for helping to derail this thread. I'm glad Max is a passionate cyclist. And like all passionate cyclists we have our opinions about certain things. Long live threaded and threadless stems, heavy bikes and light bikes and all bikes in between.
03-31-15, 10:28 AM
#58
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I think that frame designers have finally begun to address the issue of raising the handlebars on threadless setups with higher/extended head tubes. While this is great, it still doesn't solve the problem of adjustability after the steerer is cut. It would seem to me that if you could incorporate the higher/extended head tube frame design with a threaded headset/fork you might get the best of both worlds. A shorter quill height with a 31.8mm bar could be made plenty stiff and you could maintain adjustability without having to buy a new stem/fork.
03-31-15, 11:26 AM
#59
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I can see having more flex from a Sam than a modern carbon fiber road bike...that's just the way it is with some Rivs...well, probably most rivs. My Sam is a 48 cm, which I don't even think they are making that size anymore, and I wouldn't say it is a flexy bike, but the wide tires, 6500 ultegra crank, and probably quill stem add up to some extra flex. I don't notice it but I do find the ride very pleasing.
The Sam is noticeably slower than my Rivendell Roadeo.. flex isn't a problem on that bike for me. My slowness is not because I'm riding a steel bike...it's because I'm just not all that fast. But, saying that...I have noticed my Roadeo to be quite a bit faster than my Hillborne, which is a good thing because that is why I buy it.
I dig Rivendells and think the company does a lot of right things. I'm not too into the new Clems though.
Point of fact though...I went with a threaded fork/headset on my Roadeo because I wanted to use a Nitto lugged stem....total vanity. I love riding that bike. You can get a 1" threadless headset for the Roadeo frame when you order it and in fact I can order another fork for threadless now if I felt like changing, which I don't.
No doubt about it though, modern carbon race bikes are stiffer and lighter.
The Sam is noticeably slower than my Rivendell Roadeo.. flex isn't a problem on that bike for me. My slowness is not because I'm riding a steel bike...it's because I'm just not all that fast. But, saying that...I have noticed my Roadeo to be quite a bit faster than my Hillborne, which is a good thing because that is why I buy it.
I dig Rivendells and think the company does a lot of right things. I'm not too into the new Clems though.
Point of fact though...I went with a threaded fork/headset on my Roadeo because I wanted to use a Nitto lugged stem....total vanity. I love riding that bike. You can get a 1" threadless headset for the Roadeo frame when you order it and in fact I can order another fork for threadless now if I felt like changing, which I don't.
No doubt about it though, modern carbon race bikes are stiffer and lighter.
03-31-15, 05:40 PM
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i've often thought about this labeling fad called passive/aggressive. because it always seems to be used in a contemptuous and disapproving manner, i assume the label-er would prefer that their subject be either passive or aggressive.
BTW, make no mistake, this is a direct and unambiguous criticism.
BTW, make no mistake, this is a direct and unambiguous criticism.
Ditto.
I appreciate Max's (OP) contribution of his impression of his short ride/experience.
STP
03-31-15, 07:21 PM
#61
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I enjoy my Rambouillet, it's a nice combination of road and tour bike. My Atlantis is heavy, very solid, but not much fun and unfortunately that seems to be the direction Rivendell has mostly gone. The Roadeo looks interesting, but heavy bikes like the Hunqupillar and the 650b fetish aren't for me. Sticking with old stuff that works is fine, but ignoring new stuff that works doesn't make sense to me. One day I'll have 11 speed electronic shifting once I can afford it and if I'm convinced it's a nice as the LBS folks say. But I the key for me is when climbing. My 10 speed CF bike climbs better than my Rambouillet.
04-01-15, 11:37 AM
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To us, and I'm guessing we aren't alone in this, carbon frames look like fat smooth cartoon bikes where the cartoonist forgot to include the headset. They look like high-tech sissy toys designed by guys in their late '20s. Even more sobering is that there isn't a carbon frame today that's going to be on the road and trustworthy in 10 years; not if it's lived a hard life, at least. If all you do is look at it and, with a faulty sense of aesthetics, admire it's [sic - couldn't resist] "sleek, sexy, plastic, computer-drawn contours," that's another story.
04-01-15, 11:45 AM
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I have little interest in purchasing a riv, but also a little reluctant to purchase a CF at this point.
Can anyone with older CF frames (10+ years of use) comment on how those frames have held up?
Can anyone with older CF frames (10+ years of use) comment on how those frames have held up?
04-01-15, 12:49 PM
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Hardly, I have my preferences in bikes and riding equipment, but I don't start posts on how another type of bike isn't to my liking. Seems like the OP was just looking for a reaction and picked an easy target (older vs newer tech).
I'd like to meet this collective 'we' he mentions ... and how he became their spokesperson.
I'd like to meet this collective 'we' he mentions ... and how he became their spokesperson.
04-01-15, 01:40 PM
#65
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There are plenty of decade-old carbon fiber frames out there, and quite a few that are older than that. Generally the people who were buying those bikes 10, 15, 20 years ago are the kinds of people who cycle through bikes quicker than that, though.
04-01-15, 02:02 PM
#66
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My CF frame is about 5 years old. It has plenty of scratches in the paint and a couple of equipment changes. If the quote from Riv is accurate I'm sad as GP is missing out on some fun bikes.
04-02-15, 08:15 AM
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I'd say headset flex is probably more like it...and of course handlebar flex.
04-02-15, 08:18 AM
#69
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This is not to flame anyone. I just wanted to add some numbers.
Assuming: 6" of quill above the steerer; stem diameter of ~0.87"(from technomic); stem wall thickness ~0.15" (from technomic); a 400lbs force applied at a 90* angle to the top of the stem; 55cm (~21.5") handlebar (10.75" to each extreme from center of quill)
Where W = force; L = length; E = modulus of elasticity; I = 2nd moment of inertia
Horizontal deflection at top of quill = WL^3/3EI = 0.125" = ~1.2 degrees
Vertical deflection at handlebar end (due to quill flex only) = ~0.23"
This is an oversimplification, but that's not a large deflection, and it assumes a pretty massive force, at a perfect angle, with a very tall stem and very wide bars. I haven't run the numbers, but I suspect handlebar flex would contribute the vast majority of detectable flex in the system. With stiff, narrow racing bars, and quill extensions befitting a bike with those bars, I sincerely doubt there would be a detectable difference in flex between threaded and threadless systems. Threadless may be lighter, but not likely detect-ably stiffer.
Let me know if you find an error in calculation
Assuming: 6" of quill above the steerer; stem diameter of ~0.87"(from technomic); stem wall thickness ~0.15" (from technomic); a 400lbs force applied at a 90* angle to the top of the stem; 55cm (~21.5") handlebar (10.75" to each extreme from center of quill)
Where W = force; L = length; E = modulus of elasticity; I = 2nd moment of inertia
Horizontal deflection at top of quill = WL^3/3EI = 0.125" = ~1.2 degrees
Vertical deflection at handlebar end (due to quill flex only) = ~0.23"
This is an oversimplification, but that's not a large deflection, and it assumes a pretty massive force, at a perfect angle, with a very tall stem and very wide bars. I haven't run the numbers, but I suspect handlebar flex would contribute the vast majority of detectable flex in the system. With stiff, narrow racing bars, and quill extensions befitting a bike with those bars, I sincerely doubt there would be a detectable difference in flex between threaded and threadless systems. Threadless may be lighter, but not likely detect-ably stiffer.
Let me know if you find an error in calculation
04-02-15, 08:50 AM
#72
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I can't agree, a quarter of an inch is an enormous amount of flex. The bike would feel like rubber.
04-02-15, 01:07 PM
#75
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Dont forget, 26.0 vs 31.8 bars are a BIG reason threadless stems are stiffer. That is not accounting for bars that are not heat treated, the majority of 26.0 bars are not, and much flexier. Most of the new 31.8 alum bars ARE HT as well as far as I know.